106 replies to this topic

[Warblood]

IMHO, If you want to boat go for it, but ghost heat should stay. PGI needs to incentive ppl to keep cool if they boat.

Ex: If your mech qualifies as having ghost heat, if you don't shut down the whole game you should receive extra cbills. Something like 25k if defeated but didn't over heat and 50k if you won your game and didn't over heat.

Penalties should be rewarded with smarter play.

[Rhent]

o0Marduk0o, on 17 February 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

Oh look, another player who does not know the reasons behind ghost heat.
Nevertheless, your suggestion is awful and outdated and you should feel ashamed for this thread.

If you had the ability to read and form logical thought, you'd understand I listed out the reason why ghost heat was implemented. You need to read before trolling.

"Why:
The current high heat cap and low heat dissipation has set up a system set for abuse. Historically that abuse was the 6 PPC stalker, which worked because the heat cap was so high that they could come out, fire one blast, hide for 4 seconds, come back again and fire another blast and core a mech and be at 99% heat. To fix this, the developers have raised heat across the board on energy based weapons and implemented the hated "Ghost Heat" system, which is almost universally hated."

Edited by Rhent, 17 February 2014 - 01:45 PM.

[Rhent]

Warblood, on 17 February 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

IMHO, If you want to boat go for it, but ghost heat should stay. PGI needs to incentive ppl to keep cool if they boat.

Ex: If your mech qualifies as having ghost heat, if you don't shut down the whole game you should receive extra cbills. Something like 25k if defeated but didn't over heat and 50k if you won your game and didn't over heat.

Penalties should be rewarded with smarter play.

30 Heat point cap eliminates 4 PPC/6PPC stalker and reenables 4 LL mechs to be a lot more viable at doing pin point damage compared to having to do a .25 sec stagger that ghost heat forces now. You break 30 heat you shut down. You want to fire 2 PPCs + 2 ML and be heat neutral, it would be possible in this system with enough heat sinks. As it stands now, that build is impossible to be heat neutral with the current heat system.

[BlackDeathLegion]

maybe PGI needs to create a "hardpoint crit slot LIMIT" per location that a weapon is allowed? It would be a step in the right direction and REFLECT the fact that some mech builds just ARE NOT DESIGNED(by LORE) to be customized in such a boating matter. 3-4 PPCs are for the AWESOME, not a Stalker. (for example)

Sure Stalker has 6 energy slots
Awesome has 6 energy slots

BUT....

STALKER
Left Arm ( 2 ENERGY hardpoints)
but there are ONLY 3 "ENERGY CRIT SLOTS" to fit ENERGY weapons!!!

So you CANT FIT 2 PPCs in the leftarm.

You can use 1 Large Laser (2 crit slots)
+ 1 Med laser (1 crit slot)
for a TOTAL of 3 ENERGY SLOTS within the left arm!!!

AWESOME
Left Arm (2 ENERGY hardpoints)
6 ENERGY CRIT SLOTS*

Thus allowing the Awesome to use 2 PPCs in its left arm.

You see what I mean ya'll ?????

Edited by BlackDeathLegion, 17 February 2014 - 02:00 PM.

[meteorol]

Heat is not the problem, was never the problem, and will never be the problem.

The problem is that the core gameplay mechanics are flawed. This game has 2 ways of dealing damage, instant pinpoint damage and spread damage. The first one is superior in every single way. You can flip the numbers around like you want, but pinpoint damage will stay superior to spread damage.

Why did we have the "4 PPC/3PPC+Gauss Meta" (6 PPC Stalker was pretty much a joke build) and NOT the 4 LL/3LL+Gauss meta? If heat would have been the real issue, we would have seen LL all over the place, because they even cause less heat than the PPC. But we didn't. We saw PPCs.

We had PPC(and still have) PPC meta because they deal pinpoint damage. The current AC heavy meta is NOT caused by ghost heat or the heat cap. It's caused by the gauss nerf.
It's there because ACS are the next pinpoint weapons in line after the Gauss was nerfed with the charge up mechanic.

Ghostheat just reduced the amount of PPCs fired at a time. Players found their workaround in using 2 PPCs along with a Gauss for 35 pinpoint damage. Gauss was nerfed, players switched to 2PPCs and 2 UAC5 to get their new shiny 30 pinpoint damage.
It was never the heat that caused players to go for the ACs, it was the search for the highest number of pinpoint damage dealt with a single shot within the current possibilities. If lasers would deal pinpoint damage, we would see 2PPC/2LL builds ALL over the place right now.

Even with your suggestion, 4 LL builds will be a singularity. You can run a 4 LL build with the current heat system, you just have to chainfire them. (which staggers the damage even more, i'll give you that)
But lasers don't deal pinpoint damage, while 2PPCs and 2 AC5 do. Ballistic weapons deal pinpoint damage while lasers spread. This inherent different will always favor ballistic weapons and PPCs over lasers, and thats why lasers will always stand in the shadow of pinpoint weapons.

Players will always find the most effective way to kill an enemy mech. Pinpoint damage is the most effective way, so they will go for it. This is a fatal flaw in core gameplay mechanics. Discussing balance or heat issues is moot as long as this elephant is in the room

Edited by meteorol, 17 February 2014 - 02:16 PM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Rhent, on 17 February 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

If you had the ability to read and form logical thought, you'd understand I listed out the reason why ghost heat was implemented.

Obviously not because you want to remove it when your changes are done. Ghost heat is no PPC fix. It is a general solution to change the way people build mechs and how many weapons - not only PPC - they can fire at once.
That 4/6 PPC mechs were killed is appreciated side effect but not the one and only reason why it got implemented.

[Rhent]

o0Marduk0o, on 17 February 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

Obviously not because you want to remove it when your changes are done. Ghost heat is no PPC fix. It is a general solution to change the way people build mechs and how many weapons - not only PPC - they can fire at once.
That 4/6 PPC mechs were killed is appreciated side effect but not the one and only reason why it got implemented.

Ghost heat was directly implemented to deal with the 4PPC and 6PPC mech issue. The very first weapon system this was implemented on was the PPC. The game was getting killed by 40 and 60 pinpoint alphas at range.

The developers extended it out willy nilly to other weapon systems without thinking it through leading to the preeminence of autocannons. The most common build now is the 2 PPC + 2 AC5 or 2 PPC + 1 AC/20 build which is a direct reflection of ghost heat.

[cSand]

In MW2 and Mercenaries (can't remember in 3 or 4) There was your heat gauge, and right next to it was a Heat Delta gauge, which told you the rate of heat increase. So if your delta was already at half, and you shot another round, that rate of heat increase was higher... similar to ghost heat

I think having a heat delta gauge in this game would help with some of the confusion and frustration with ghost heat.

Or do we have one and I just have never noticed it?

Edited by cSand, 17 February 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[Koniving]

Many times this has come up. I'm an avid supporter of it.

It's also a link in my signature.

To see just how bad the heat system is, this unbiased literal system will tell you how it works.
http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

The current system is
Threshold: 30 + heatsink value total = threshold + Basic Skill Heat Containment (if unlocked) for 10% more (20% of elites fully unlocked).
Cooling: Heatsink value total amount divided by 10 = cooling + 7.5% Cool Run if unlocked (15% if elites fully unlocked).

Notes:
Engine DHS built in = + 2 threshold, + 0.2/sec (2 per 10 seconds) cooling.
Manually added DHS = +1.4 threshold, +0.14/sec (1.4 per 10 seconds) cooling.

Results: High alpha strike potential. Drag your heals kinda-sorta to cool down.

The generally desired system (if pilot skills remain unchanged)
Threshold: 30. + 10% heat containment, 33 and after elite level heat containment 36.
Cooling: Heatsink amount (0.1/sec per Standard, 0.2/sec per double) + 7.5% Cool Run (Cooling + 15% when elite level).

Results: ~Low~ alpha strike potential, many combinations able to fire once or twice and shutdown even with faster cooling. However, chain fired weapons will be very frequent.

This is an example. This build despite its power, could never last as long as it does even with fast cooling. It's running 2 ER LL and 2 LL.

The actual conditions on the map affect the mech as follows:
Cooling Rate 3.62 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 69.12.
The norm for this mech is
Cooling Rate: 4.83 heat/sec
Heat Threshold : 86.4.

Given that it has 42 SHS, that's 21 DHS.
With a 30 threshold, 2.0 per DHS per 10 second cooling rate..
My cooling would be 4.2. + skills (cool run elited + 15%) = 48.3 / 10 seconds = 4.83 (just like my norm). My threshold with skills, 36.
After Terra Therma, -25% to both.
My cooling would be 3.6225 per second.
My threshold would be 27.
Firing 2 Large Lasers at once would bring me to 66.67% heat without cooling and with cooling for 1 second (the beam time) 53.22% heat.

[o0Marduk0o]

Rhent, on 17 February 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

The most common build now is the 2 PPC + 2 AC5 or 2 PPC + 1 AC/20 build which is a direct reflection of ghost heat.

It shows that pin-point-dmg is the key to win. This is something to discuss. There is nothing wrong with those builds itself, they are more Battletech than 6 PPC mechs.

[Koniving]

Rhent, on 17 February 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

Ghost heat was directly implemented to deal with the 4PPC and 6PPC mech issue. The very first weapon system this was implemented on was the PPC. The game was getting killed by 40 and 60 pinpoint alphas at range.

The developers extended it out willy nilly to other weapon systems without thinking it through leading to the preeminence of autocannons. The most common build now is the 2 PPC + 2 AC5 or 2 PPC + 1 AC/20 build which is a direct reflection of ghost heat.

Had PGI done the original poster's threshold concept (given to them by me many times over), the 4 PPC concept would never exist.

1 ER PPC = 50% heat. 10 true 2.0 DHS would cool this 6.2 seconds.

3 PPCs fired at once = 30 heat = shutdown. 2 ER PPCs fired at once = 30 heat = shutdown.
3 PPCs spaced out with 30 SHS will be able to fire 2 seconds apart from each other, once, and in 10 total seconds be ice cold.

[Koniving]

o0Marduk0o, on 17 February 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

It shows that pin-point-dmg is the key to win. This is something to discuss. There is nothing wrong with those builds itself, they are more Battletech than 6 PPC mechs.

Battletech however, single shot AC/20s do not exist (tabletop is a 10 second summary; in lore and in the tech manuals there is no such thing as a single shot AC/20. The closest thing is a single shot UAC/20 operated by the Cauldron Born [ebon jaguar]). They range from magazine-fed 100 shot burst-fired multi-barreled gatling guns (Pontiac 100; Victor, Heir to the dragon), fully automatic 15 shots to do 20 damage Deathgivers (Atlas,Heir to the dragon), 10 shots (Crusher Super Heavy Cannon, TRO 3026), with the most powerful AC/20 dealing a slow series of 4 shots to reach its damage rating at 185mm in bullet size and 5 damage per bullet (Chemjet, TRO 3026).

Random other examples. Whirlwind AC/5 (3 shot, Wolves on the border and Price of glory). Luxor Devastator AC/20 (12 shot, Storms of fate). One thing to note, the Whirlwind/5 is a 90mm cannon. The largest AC/2 is an 80mm cannon and the only possible one for 2 damage per shot. However, clearly a 90mm cannon can only reach 1.67 damage per shot (5 damage / 3 shots = 1.666666666666667).

Many AC/2s are described between 100 and 10 (official) and two-round bursts (fan fiction).

The list goes on.

Autocannons replaced Rifles.

Rifles (Light, Medium, Heavy) rifles were single shot weapons based heavily on (our modern) tanks. These became obsolete as the highest caliber single shot weapons possible at the time required two hands, was very slow firing, and could only achieve 9 damage for an 8 ton weapon. However, compared to current tech armor, all Rifles receive a -3 damage penalty as obsolete tech.

A note on the Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron Born). It mounts the only 1 shot = 20 damage AC / UAC in existence. The UAC/20 it has fires 203mm rounds. In book fluff, it cannot, ever, mount a second one of the same kind of UAC/20. In tabletop this doesn't take place simply because tabletop doesn't take variants into account and summarizes 10 seconds as quickly as possible. Its supposed inability to use two UAC/20s of the single shot variety in book fluff is because the recoil is so strong that the mech cannot handle it. And most mechs even the Dire Wolf, cannot handle even using that specific UAC/20 weapon without having to remain completely stationary and braced and even then could fall over in the process.

Note that the Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron Born) in MWO would be approximately the height of a Spider, with the legnth of an MWO Stalker/Catapult and the width of an MWO Dragon. Very short, VERY WIDE, VERY LONG. And 65 tons. Oh, and LRM bait (much like the also short King Crab).



It's weird leg positioning is to give its body support when using its high caliber firepower. It, like many clan mechs, also does not feature torso twist (obviously PGI will change this).

The point though, is that pinpoint autocannons in MWO's vain do not exist. Will they be addressed? Probably not, the design of MWO's network/server system prevents it from being possible (supposedly). Though I've been making macros with firing patterns akin to how I envision these weapons working and while "100 shot" guns just ain't gonna happen, 4 to 20 shot ones are easy to do and seem to have good hit detection.

Edited by Koniving, 18 February 2014 - 05:50 AM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Koniving, on 17 February 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Battletech however, single shot AC/20s do not exist [...]

The list goes on.

You are right but this all has nothing to do with heat. You can't balance pin point dmg with heat because it leads to the current AC meta. People should discuss how weapons fire (see your AC example) and how you aim with multiple weapons.

[Koniving]

o0Marduk0o, on 17 February 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

You are right but this all has nothing to do with heat. You can't balance pin point dmg with heat because it leads to the current AC meta. People should discuss how weapons fire (see your AC example) and how you aim with multiple weapons.

I'm aware. But also I might note this. Even with lower heat, the AC meta would also change. Consider this:
6 AC/2 in action.
4 AC/2 in action.
2 AC/2 + 2 AC/5 in action. <--watch how long this build lasts before it overheats in the one constant fire scenario where I nearly overheat. Count how long it took. I once calculated (as an example in favor of a 30 threshold system) that the exact same build would shut down in 11 to 13 seconds of constant fire. It lasts 29 seconds. So after a 30 threshold system even with 2.0 cooling for all the weapons, it'd shut down at minimum 16 seconds sooner. That's approximately 174 damage less from firing to shutdown after the change for the third video.

Without even changing how ballistics work. And if that isn't enough, they could raise the heat on ballistics or consider having them shoot as fast or faster and split the damage up. But ultimately the point is heat management overall would matter more and pinpoint would be virtually gone.

10 DHS and 2 AC/2s fired once with a 30 threshold is 6.67% heat. Currently with 10 DHS and no unlocks, 2 AC/2s is 4% heat. That's not with any of the cooling being applied, which occurs after shooting.

This gives you an example of what it would do to ER PPCs. Just change how they are fired to one at a time, and you'd have MWO after 30 threshold. Notice how fast they cool?

Take that speed. And factor in the huge difference the same speed in cooling would be if the single shot reached 50% heat, and 2 ER PPCs (30 heat) brings that video up to 32% (which would be the new 100% without elites).

Energy weapons would likely become quite a bit more popular. Just not as alpha strike weapons.

Edited by Koniving, 17 February 2014 - 03:23 PM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Koniving, on 17 February 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

I'm aware. But also I might note this. Even with lower heat, the AC meta would also change. Consider this:
6 AC/2 in action.
4 AC/2 in action.
2 AC/2 + 2 AC/5 in action. <--watch how long this build lasts before it overheats in the one constant fire scenario where I nearly overheat. Count how long it took. I once calculated (as an example in favor of a 30 threshold system) that the exact same build would shut down in 11 to 13 seconds of constant fire. It lasts 29 seconds. So after a 30 threshold system even with 2.0 cooling for all the weapons, it'd shut down at minimum 16 seconds sooner. That's approximately 174 damage less from firing to shutdown after the change for the third video.

Yeah but we all know, the AC2 is quite hot compared to the other AC's. Double AC20 is only hot because ghost heat.
And AC2 are not so much used in known "meta builds".

[Koniving]

o0Marduk0o, on 17 February 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

Yeah but we all know, the AC2 is quite hot compared to the other AC's. Double AC20 is only hot because ghost heat.
And AC2 are not so much used in known "meta builds".

Two small counter arguments here. AC/20 has reduced heat in MWO. 6 per AC/20. Twin AC/20 fired is 12 heat (40% threshold).

Source materials, it's 7. Raise heat to 7. Twin AC/20 = 14 heat = 46.67% of threshold. Three times in a row with the typical build, shutdown.

It'd be almost identical to the current ghost heat phenomenon for them.

Make them 8 heat each and firing while stationary is 53.33% heat. Firing while moving at 69.8 kph with an XL 255 engine and...80% heat for one firing of two AC/20s without ghost heat. (Assumes engine generates 6 heat and at full speed and isn't applying cooling).

Second. Ammo. We get 7 shots. Source says 5 shots per ton. Drop ammo count for all ACs. Boating reduced; lasers supplied.

(Should note: That's 30 threshold without the pilot skills. With pilot skills mastered you get +20% threshold with MWO's current pilot skills. 36 threshold.)
AC/20 at 6 heat, twins fired = 33.33% heat.
AC/20 at 7 heat, twins fired = 38.89% heat.
AC/20 at 8 heat, twins fired = 44.44% heat.
AC/20 at 8 heat + moving 69.8 kph, twins fired = 66.67% heat. (Again, assumes engine generates 6 heat at full speed and does not apply cooling).

Obviously another huge culprit to our balancing issues is mech skill unlocks.

Edited by Koniving, 18 February 2014 - 06:01 AM.

[Greyboots]

TehSBGX, on 16 February 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

I'm in favor of a 30 heat cap with high dissapation rate too, but it seems unlikely Paul will ever admit ghost heat doesn't work.

Oh, ghost heat works, it's just a dumb idea. Essentially all it does is keep weapon stats "canon" but breaks that further down the chain.

The simple fact is that it was never actually needed and was just a bit of flim-flammery to bamboozle the populace. Which, to be honest, is my only real problem with it. Game systems should be open and honest and this one just isn't.

The simple fact is that I just stopped using the alpha strike key when using high ghost heat combos and all the problems went away instantly.

Quote

And the fact that they punish people for boating...

They do NOT punish people for boating. The best example is the LRM 5 missile boats about the place. Generally they're running 6 LRM5's using chain fire. This avoids ghost heat completely.

You can do exactly the same with any ghost heat generating combo. You can fire 2 large lasers and then another 2 large lasers .26 seconds later and suffer no ghost heat.

THIS is the problem with ghost heat. People just don't understand it. It's an overly convoluted, undocumented, hidden element to MWO. The devs should take a long and hard look at themselves and perhaps think back to their time at development school. How are people supposed to understand and enjoy their game when they pull something like this?

The system works and it does exactly what it's supposed to do, make you use something besides the alpha strike key to fire. On that front it's actually OK. The only bad part is the difficulty for the average player to find out about and come to grips with. THAT is what makes it bad in and of itself.

Wehn linked with the rest of the game? It's been a LONG time since I ran out of AC ammo. The risks associated with ammo are actually VERY minimal. You may die to an ammo explosion occasionally but usually this means you were on the verge of going down anyway. It's almost never an issue. This means that ghost heat was never really needed on the majority of weapons it was applied to. It simply wasn't necessary to control most of the weapons genuinely effected. All they had to do was the same as the PPC/ERPPC; just jack the heat per shot and leave it at that.

Edited by Greyboots, 17 February 2014 - 03:57 PM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Koniving, on 17 February 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

(Should note: That's 30 threshold without the pilot skills. With pilot skills mastered you get +20% threshold with MWO's current pilot skills. 36 threshold.)
AC/20 at 6 heat, twins fired = 33.33% heat.
AC/20 at 7 heat, twins fired = 38.89% heat.
AC/20 at 8 heat, twins fired = 44.44% heat.
AC/20 at 8 heat + moving 69.8 kph, twins fired = 66.67% heat.

The heat gain while moving was never as large as you wrote here, it was like 3% on hot maps without many heat sinks.
A lower threshold (30) can't explain this difference.

But I would prefer a much higher impact of moving/jumping concerning heat.

Furthermore with increased heat dissipation and keeping in mind that your heat sinks already work while you are shooting, you won't shut down after the 3rd double AC20 alpha. You shut down because the cooling rate is currently so low.

Edited by o0Marduk0o, 17 February 2014 - 04:06 PM.

[Koniving]

o0Marduk0o, on 17 February 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

The heat gain while moving was never as large as you wrote here, it was like 3% on hot maps without many heat sinks.
A lower threshold (30) can't explain this difference.

Note: Lower threshold. Though, I did a basic assumption it was 6 heat for an engine going full speed (note that engines are usually doing 1 heat or more heat per second; also unaccounted for in every example before it.)

I've had gains of 14% heat on some maps with mechs that have thresholds of 60 and better cooling. So why not 22% heat as a gain at 30 threshold? More realistically it might be a gain of 18% more heat.

Tell ya what. Lemme get back to you, I'm gonna field a 255 engine mech with DHS on forest colony and note the heat difference.

Okay, after testing that at 50 threshold with an XL 255 engine, no modifications to heat generated (no unlocks) with a 65 ton mech I get 3% heat increase.
Threshold 50
Cooling rate 2.0 (255 engine, stripped mech no gear no weapons no nothing)
3% = 3 out of 100 : 1.5 out of 50.

1.5 heat (with cooling as you move) = 3% heat at 50 threshold
Plugged in 1.5 heat with 30 threshold is ? out of 100(%).
5% heat.

53.33% heat + 5% heat = 58.33
For 36 threshold, that 1.5 heat is 4.167% heat

44.44 + 5% = 48.607. But then you gotta factor in that it cools faster too...which requires actually knowing how much heat the engine really generates.

Fact is, we don't know what it generates before cooling. Hence throwing 6 as a random number for the engine. The intention is to say the faster you move the hotter it runs in addition to the weapons, and it matters a ~lot~ more after threshold is reduced to 30.

Edited by Koniving, 17 February 2014 - 04:23 PM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Koniving, on 17 February 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Tell ya what. Lemme get back to you, I'm gonna field a 255 engine mech with DHS on forest colony and note the heat difference.

On Caustic Valley I get a 3% heat increase while moving with 10 engine DHS.