55 replies to this topic

[Panthros]

Sandpit, on 18 February 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

are you talking about you only drop as "clan" when you're using clan tech but stay in your original faction?

I think as an example, which I love the idea of, you select both an IS faction (Davion) and Clan faction (Clan Wolf) in your character profile. That faction shows next to your name when you drop.

[Khobai]

The reason they probably wanna do 12v12 is so they can mix clan mechs with IS mechs on the same team.

If they have to do IS vs Clan they have to split the queue which means longer wait times.

[Bhael Fire]

Craig Steele, on 18 February 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

That would be 5 Clan vs 4 IS, you may mean Star vs company which is 5 Clan vs 12 IS which is a canon engagement that has several instances.

But Binaries (10 Clan mechs) vs Companies (12 Clan mechs) is not an engagement that was frequent,

Stars (plural) vs. Lances (plural).

That can mean any combination thereof. In this case, since it's relevant to the topic at hand, it means 10 vs 12.

In TT, I've played all manner of asymmetrical engagements, including ones with fractured/weakened Lances/Stars (e.g., 3 IS units vs 7 a weakened Clan Binary with half-health). In other words, there's no lore that says an engagement has to consist of this many units vs this many units. It just depends on the scenario being played.

It is lore, however, that a Star is comprised of 5 Clan units and a Lance is comprised of 4 IS units. When people say "Stars vs Lances" they simply mean 1 or more Stars vs. 1 or more Lances. That's it...Nothing more to read into.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 18 February 2014 - 06:44 PM.

[Lindonius]

Khobai, on 18 February 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

The reason they probably wanna do 12v12 is so they can mix clan mechs with IS mechs on the same team.

If they have to do IS vs Clan they have to split the queue which means longer wait times.

People are in denial about this inevitability and PGI devs are quoted as saying that they're not going to do it....

Right up to the point when they have to deliver the clan packs, when their legal obligation to provide these digital items says nothing about the environment that you will be dropping your shiny new clan mechs into.

Say hello to that noob on your team in a trial Hunchy standing next to you in your gold "Kuritan" Mad Cat!

I might believe them if they actually added the Clan faction badges to the game and this website.

It would be a start.

Edited by Lindonius, 18 February 2014 - 06:48 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Bhael Fire, on 18 February 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

Stars (plural) vs. Lances (plural).

That can mean any combination thereof. In this case, since it's relevant to the topic at hand, it means 10 vs 12.

In TT, I've played all manner of asymmetrical engagements, including ones with fractured/weakened Lances/Stars (e.g., 3 IS units vs 7 a weakened Clan Binary with half-health). In other words, there's no lore that says an engagement has to consist of this many units vs this many units. It just depends on the scenario being played.

It is lore, however, that a Star is comprised of 5 Clan units and a Lance is comprised of 4 IS units. When people say "Stars vs Lances" they simply mean 1 or more Stars vs. 1 or more Lances. That's it...Nothing more to read into.

k, I see your wording intent now.

Sorry I just use the canon terms myself but yeah, thats that's terminolgy thing.

To use numbers for an even playing field on subject though, 10 Omni's vs 12 IS mechs was not the predominant tactical engagement.

[Katus]

I hate to have to point this out, but according to the lore a Clan Mech is about twice as effective a war machine then an Inner Sphere Mech of the same weight class. So if PGI wanted to go with lore (and we all know they don't) then a 6-12 match would be nearly even if the pilots are of the same quality. In TT Battletech a well handled Star of Clan Mechs will flatten a IS Company with alarming regularity and that is even with recovered Star League technology, ER Energy weapons, UACs/LBX and SSRMs. 2-1 is what was needed along with sneaky backstabbing and bushwhacking tactics on the IS side to have an even up chance to win.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Lukoi, on 18 February 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

Sad but true. I'd dig some lore adherence myself, but they probably cannot do that AND keep the game balanced enough to attract the casuals imo. There's a reason so many MMO's in recent years use "mirror" classes, regardless of flavoring.

this is exactly what pgi needs to utilise to elevate this game as a new and different experience to everything else. make it attractive by offering what no one else can. give us a purpose to fight by distinguishing the factions and the gameplay tactics that comes withem. the clans are the perfect oppotunity to achive that. the game won't survive if its yet another MMO mirror class mediocre deathmatch cycle game.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 18 February 2014 - 07:37 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Katus, on 18 February 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

I hate to have to point this out, but according to the lore a Clan Mech is about twice as effective a war machine then an Inner Sphere Mech of the same weight class. So if PGI wanted to go with lore (and we all know they don't) then a 6-12 match would be nearly even if the pilots are of the same quality. In TT Battletech a well handled Star of Clan Mechs will flatten a IS Company with alarming regularity and that is even with recovered Star League technology, ER Energy weapons, UACs/LBX and SSRMs. 2-1 is what was needed along with sneaky backstabbing and bushwhacking tactics on the IS side to have an even up chance to win.

Ummm, kinda.

The primary strength of the clan touman though was its pilots. On average they were just plain better. Better agility, better reflexes, better tactics, better shots. They were bred for the job and trained their whole lives for it.

In the Inner Sphere (the 'average') it was a career choice. You got 5 - 7 years of training if you passed the natural apptitude (which had plenty of exceptions for C-Bills, connections, etc depending on your location) and away you go. Some mech pilots could do their rotation without even going into combat as mech units were frequently unengaged due to their scarcity / rareness in small scale engagements.

Not so Clanners, they fought or died just to get in the touman and you could count on a trial or two every year, either internal or external.

The better technology certainly helped but twice as effective, not so comfident on that ratio on a pure mech to mech basis.

To create that canon experieince is to restrict Clan mechs to the proven elite of MW:O, which to me is simply an unrealistic scenario for the game.

[Panthros]

Katus, on 18 February 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

I hate to have to point this out, but according to the lore a Clan Mech is about twice as effective a war machine then an Inner Sphere Mech of the same weight class. So if PGI wanted to go with lore (and we all know they don't) then a 6-12 match would be nearly even if the pilots are of the same quality. In TT Battletech a well handled Star of Clan Mechs will flatten a IS Company with alarming regularity and that is even with recovered Star League technology, ER Energy weapons, UACs/LBX and SSRMs. 2-1 is what was needed along with sneaky backstabbing and bushwhacking tactics on the IS side to have an even up chance to win.

Agreed but this is not tabletop, I understand that. PGI has chosen to make the Clan mechs balance the Inner Sphere mechs. I understand that so people do not throw away their mechs they have purchased but... 10v12 gives a semblance to caring about how Inner Sphere fought and how clans fought, star versus lance. I want Clans to stand out more than, oh look at my shiny new Timber Wolf. Star tactics have the potential to be different than lance which ultimately is a win as it makes this game more interesting IMHO.

[wanderer]

Craig Steele, on 18 February 2014 - 05:47 PM, said:

Except 10 v 12 is not Lore.

There are sound arguments for 10 v 12 on a technology basis, but there is no canon that supports the Binary vs Company battle is the predominant engagement.

Except that "Binary" happens to be a normal Clan unit and so does "Company" for the IS.

Oh, and because I apparently have to slap you in the face with a literal textbook example:

http://www.sarna.net...Fist_and_Falcon

Lookie there. Binary vs. Company is precisely how Catalyst sets up TT matchups for players.

Now cut your mindless blather of "Clans only do Trinaries, Binaries aren't canon" because there's your example of how they balance a fight in TT right there, company vs. Binary.

Quote

I think that is Clan mechs are 'superior' (as they will have to be to have a blaanced game 10 v 12) it will mean the end of IS mechs on the battlefield in numbers. Pilots just naturally chose a chassis that gives them a the bast chance (before team, mission etc is even considered)

And you're blanker than a washed chalkboard about what even a 2-man advantage does in MWO.

Quote

We don't see many Locusts for exactly that reasons, there are better chassis for the job.

I cannot see that trend changing and pilots will gravitate towards Clan mechs.

And I'll relish the newbies in Clan 'Mechs if they keep Clan forces as 10-mans. Clanners die as fast as anyone else does, and what's worse is that a huge chunk of the light-to-medium ones have the majority of their guns on the arms. Big arms at that, and low-slung ones so they're lousy on terrain. Even modest amounts of aimed fire will rapidly deplete a Clan 'Mech's firepower. And they're slower than IS 'Mechs in many cases, to boot.

Timber Wolves have big ol' Catapult style boxes for torsos and again, low slung arms. You'll be able to pop them like oversized Hunchbacks and like their lighter brethren, they'll have to crest a hill to fire over with anything save indirect LRM fire. Summoners have limited hardpoint capacity. Warhawks and Dire Wolves have a roof for a torso you could barely miss if you tried, and Dire Wolves are outmaneuvered by every IS 'Mech on the field, even the Atlas- as it can upengine and the Clan assault can't. Every single Clan 'Mech has readily exploited weak points, and that's just from what little they've told us already.

Quote

So the question becomes, do you want Clan vs Clan or do you want Clan / IS vs Clan IS.

I want Clan vs. Clan, Clan vs IS, IS vs IS. All three, the way factional warfare actually works. It's doable, should be done, and only takes a little brainpower and some time on the test servers to show how it works.

[Sandpit]

Panthros, on 18 February 2014 - 06:29 PM, said:

I think as an example, which I love the idea of, you select both an IS faction (Davion) and Clan faction (Clan Wolf) in your character profile. That faction shows next to your name when you drop.

I still dont' see them being able to do that. They haven't even hinted at that. It would be a VERY unpopular move, as in I have no doubts there would be a lot of refunded packs in that case. I spend $240 and then all of a sudden I have to change factions to use them? I just don't see that happening. I wouldn't want it to personally but above that I just don't see it being feasible.

[Koniving]

Craig Steele, on 18 February 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

Sandpits point (I believe) is that the chassis you choose may dictate who you can play with (team wise) which not all players would be receptive to

Well inner sphere has no business with clan mechs and there isn't a damn clanner in the world that would use an inner sphere mech. Although the split account sounds like two accounts. I'm thinking more two mech listings. Honestly PGI should have planned for clans from the start and put forth their ideas right off the bat. The fact that they still haven't is quite troubling.

[Davers]

Too many unanswered questions from PGI.

We have Clan mechs, but no Clan forum badges? No announcement what Clans will be available to play as?

They can't wait to sell everyone Clan mechs but have no information whatsoever as to how they fit in with CW. Probably because they don't know yet themselves.

[Craig Steele]

wanderer, on 18 February 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Except that "Binary" happens to be a normal Clan unit and so does "Company" for the IS.

Oh, and because I apparently have to slap you in the face with a literal textbook example:

http://www.sarna.net...Fist_and_Falcon

Lookie there. Binary vs. Company is precisely how Catalyst sets up TT matchups for players.

Now cut your mindless blather of "Clans only do Trinaries, Binaries aren't canon" because there's your example of how they balance a fight in TT right there, company vs. Binary.



And you're blanker than a washed chalkboard about what even a 2-man advantage does in MWO.



And I'll relish the newbies in Clan 'Mechs if they keep Clan forces as 10-mans. Clanners die as fast as anyone else does, and what's worse is that a huge chunk of the light-to-medium ones have the majority of their guns on the arms. Big arms at that, and low-slung ones so they're lousy on terrain. Even modest amounts of aimed fire will rapidly deplete a Clan 'Mech's firepower. And they're slower than IS 'Mechs in many cases, to boot.

Timber Wolves have big ol' Catapult style boxes for torsos and again, low slung arms. You'll be able to pop them like oversized Hunchbacks and like their lighter brethren, they'll have to crest a hill to fire over with anything save indirect LRM fire. Summoners have limited hardpoint capacity. Warhawks and Dire Wolves have a roof for a torso you could barely miss if you tried, and Dire Wolves are outmaneuvered by every IS 'Mech on the field, even the Atlas- as it can upengine and the Clan assault can't. Every single Clan 'Mech has readily exploited weak points, and that's just from what little they've told us already.



I want Clan vs. Clan, Clan vs IS, IS vs IS. All three, the way factional warfare actually works. It's doable, should be done, and only takes a little brainpower and some time on the test servers to show how it works.

Wanderer, your entitled to your view but I think I showed in the other thread how you tend to read into the canon what suits your fantasy.

The OP's point is that Binary vs Company is 'canon', and its just not.

Firstly Binaries are NOT a common tactical deployments. Most Clans use Trinaries or Nova's / Supernova's in their front line Clusters.

Front line clusters are what invaded the Inner sphere.

Therefore, by far the predominant tactical deployment is a (wait for it) Trinary.

I have never said Binaries are not canon, I have and will continue to maintain they are not a common tactical deployment in the type of battles MW:O represents.

"Blanker than......." don't really think personal degredation enhances your point but if you feel better OK. Neither of us will be right until it arrives and is tested but at least my view is based on what I actually see on the field.

The point is not about a 2 man advantage, the point is that a player (ie, you or me) will tend to choose a mech that enables him (ie, you or me) the best chance of success. A numbers advantage is all well and good and will no doubt be a good balancing mechanism if Clan tech is superior. But a pilot is not going to choose an inferior mech unless he is confident that his mechs weakness will be offset by the advantage.

Everything after that is your guess work, you might be right. I'm not going to dispute it. But you seem to be saying that Clan mechs will be inferior than IS in many ways so why the heck would it be 10 v 12?

I recommend you slip on to E-Bay and get yourself a copy of Invading Clans Source Book, Jade Falcon and Wolf Source books and see for yourself what the canon TO&E's were for the Invasion and the deployments for the battles. Then you might be able to argue a point.

Edited by Craig Steele, 18 February 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[Koniving]

Sandpit, on 18 February 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

are you talking about you only drop as "clan" when you're using clan tech but stay in your original faction?

Similar. Say you know how the mech filter does Owned and Purchasable? Sooner or later I'm sure it'll be Owned Inner Sphere, Owned Clan, and Purchasable (isolated or not). And so I could be Liao & Clan Wolf at the same time. I pick an inner sphere mech, I drop as Liao. I pick a Clan mech, I drop as Clan Wolf.

It'd be the most logical thing, after all the one thing they did specifically say is that it will be "pure tech." So if you can't cross tech then I don't see why they would let us bring Direwolves to fight for the Steiners for example. I sure as heck wouldn't want that. No one would ever use an inner sphere mech again.

[Davers]

Koniving, on 18 February 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

Similar. Say you know how the mech filter does Owned and Purchasable? Sooner or later I'm sure it'll be Owned Inner Sphere, Owned Clan, and Purchasable (isolated or not). And so I could be Liao & Clan Wolf at the same time. I pick an inner sphere mech, I drop as Liao. I pick a Clan mech, I drop as Clan Wolf.

It'd be the most logical thing, after all the one thing they did specifically say is that it will be "pure tech." So if you can't cross tech then I don't see why they would let us bring Direwolves to fight for the Steiners for example. I sure as heck wouldn't want that. No one would ever use an inner sphere mech again.

So one could be FRR and Ghost Bear and fight amongst themselves?

[Lukoi Banacek]

Panthros, on 18 February 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

You pick a faction by choosing a mech to launch with, Clan or Inner Sphere (how is it complicated?). Inner Sphere factions do not have access to Clan mechs in 3050.

So disregard Clan packs for those IS players who bought them to use during COMMUNITY WARFARE by this logic.

That will drive off more people than it retains I am sure.

Lore-purists, much like 1%-Elo players sometimes forget that they make up a tiny fraction of the game's playerbase. Lore-purity is all well and good, but balanced against dollars (Canadian of course), they will lean towards dollars.

If every ardent lore-purist decides to take their Mech home and quit playing over the 10v12 issue (which is NOT likely to occur, because again, this is the ONLY BT game out there atm), they won't cause nearly the dent some believe.

I've said it time and again...there's a reason Blizzard catered to the casual player for WOW, why Dice/EA do it for their "hardcore" combat sims (quotes to denote I use the term loosely) etc etc.

Balance over lore, every time.

If they can make the Clan-tech just good enough to balance it with 10v12, more power to them but 1) I doubt they honestly try to and 2) doubt they could. They struggle balancing items that we ALL can already use. How do they factor in differences in Clan Tech (that are still not published mind you), against being short two Mechs in drops???

Edited by Lukoi, 18 February 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[Koniving]

Davers, on 18 February 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

So one could be FRR and Ghost Bear and fight amongst themselves?

Until they absorb each other and become the first hybrid group! O_O!

Also another thing I'm picturing as it is lore-friendly... Clan versus Clan.

Lukoi, on 18 February 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

If they can make the Clan-tech just good enough to balance it with 10v12, more power to them but 1) I doubt they honestly try to and 2) doubt they could. They struggle balancing items that we ALL can already use. How do they factor in differences in Clan Tech (that are still not published mind you), against being short two Mechs in drops???

There's already a 4 UAC/20 capable Battlemech in the lineup of the clan package. There's no such thing as balance if Inner Sphere gets these.

[Panthros]

Koniving, on 18 February 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Well inner sphere has no business with clan mechs and there isn't a damn clanner in the world that would use an inner sphere mech. Although the split account sounds like two accounts. I'm thinking more two mech listings. Honestly PGI should have planned for clans from the start and put forth their ideas right off the bat. The fact that they still haven't is quite troubling.

Not split accounts but you could think of it as split factions. You chose a Clan and an Inner Sphere faction. If you choose an Inner Sphere mech, IS faction would appear. If you chose a Clan mech when you drop, your Clan faction would appear. Perhap Mercenary can be selected for both, in case you are the Wolf Dragoons or Kell Hounds

Binary or Trinary? 15 mechs just will not work and I do not see PGI going that route so again to have a Clan feel, binary is better is it not?

Balance? Since they are balancing the mechs, why not use weight? Though it is 10v12, the drop deck is something agreed to on both sides. Weight and ELO are the only ways to bring balance to this game and that has been mentioned in many other threads. My binary weighs 800 and your Company is 800. If the mechs are balanced as PGI says, sounds good to me.

IS mechs will wipe the Clan mechs anytime? I think it will depend on the maps, map rotation, etc. Clan mechs always did better in more open places, unless I can get Pryde's Timber Wolf (hint for a hero mech).

Edited by Panthros, 18 February 2014 - 07:37 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Katus, on 18 February 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

I hate to have to point this out, but according to the lore a Clan Mech is about twice as effective a war machine then an Inner Sphere Mech of the same weight class. So if PGI wanted to go with lore (and we all know they don't) then a 6-12 match would be nearly even if the pilots are of the same quality.

what clan players are looking for is a change up in gameplay via lore settings ie 5 makes a star. however what you're pointing out here could happen.

now for all of those people wondering about the balance via the numbers you're thinking too small. there will also be tonnage limits, when those limits are reached the numbers become less.

IS limit could be 950 tons and the clan limit could be 530 tons

7 timberwolfs vs 9 atlas 1 hunchback 7 vs 9

or 5 nova 5 stormcrow vs 6 cataphract 1 hunchback and 1 orion 10 vs 8

or 1 adder 2 kitfox 1 direwolf 2 warhawk 2 nova 1 summoner

vs

2 atlas 1 highlander 2 victors 4 jager mechs, 1 stalker, 2 firestarters,

9 vs 12

we haven't a clue how MM will prioritise tonnage and number deployment balance. will scenario 2 be possible or will tonnage be broken to max out numbers which could lead to...

2 warhawks, 1 summoner, 1 stormcrow 1 direwolfs, 1 timberwolfs 4 kitfox 590 tons
–timberwolf added, last player broke the boundry but there was only 5 tons under for the last player so 60 tons over tonnage limit

vs

3 atlas, 3 stalker, 1 quickdraw, 1 cataphract, 2 jagermechs, 2 jenners 875tons

We just don’t know until april’s launch model what we’re really dealing with.

also the account split up isn't necessary, just add faction alegince choices in the menu under factions. instead of coming to the website to do it, it should be in game. if you choose an IS faction your IS mechbay becomes available {no mix tech remember} and if you want your paid clan stuff you access by going back up to factions tab and choose your clan faction. then your clan mechbay becomes available.

i'm hoping that

a} with this system clan players get an honor currency because if we were to get c-bills at the IS prices on the current earnings you are putting a horrible pay wall around clan material. leveling up a diashi would be like leveling up an atlas 3 times. that would be the worst fuel for the P2W crowd.

b} slavage would be obtained via working on your clan mechs in your clan faction, change the faction to diamond sharks, then in the mech bay you would sell out a whole bar of loyalty points to be able to transfer a clan chassis over to your IS account. but the loadout would be locked as you only have IS equipment.

from point b we'll discuss IS using clan material. the MM is goverend by

Tonnage
Tech
Elo

so

A clan team ie; ghostbears, wolf, jade falcons, smoke jaguar, nova cats, diamond and bloodspirit etc etc

Those teams would be able to field;

530 tons

Pure clan tech only

IS teams ie; kurita, stiener davion etc would be able to field both types of tech if someone wants to play with their friends with a clan mech on an IS team via salvage

800 tons IS material
150 tons clan material

Both tech

this allows 2 "i want it all muh friends" crowd to field with their IS compatriots however their loyalty earnings are halved {please use IS tech} encouragement there. if you're fielding a clan hero or bonuses mech all of those are lost fielded with the IS.

Later in the game Wolfs dragoons could be their own team, fielding in 1 lance and 1 star and would be able to field a greater spread for more a balanced team

500 tons IS
270 tons clan
Both tech

that's how i'd handle this situation.

disclaimer; notice bad spelling puntuation but mostly the numbers i'm making a rush estimate none of these figures are final but a proof of concept.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 18 February 2014 - 07:51 PM.