214 replies to this topic

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 26 February 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

Well, I've already suggested one alternative... which is to literally alter duration across the board (adjust heat as necessary). I'm kinda tired trying to repeat myself (it's in this thread), so, get back to me if you like or dislike it.

What if I Deathlike it?

Although the last ten posts are fairly salient, we're sort of at the point that machine guns were at 6-8 months ago (has it really been that long?) where pretty much every suggestion has been made, and any single one of them would be better than nothing, but because we're getting tiny buffs, nothing is what we get. The only relevant thing I can add is that whatever happens to the pulse family, I hope it comes with a duration decrease to .4-.3s. Sure, the shorter beam duration is slightly advantageous right now (see my post on the previous page for why I think it doesn't help much) but really, it doesn't do enough to distinguish them as a weapons system distinct from normal lasers right now, and the massive disadvantages don't come even close to making up for the slightly shorter beam time. I would also add that unlike the last few posters, even just decreasing the recycle time without changing heat or damage would make a big difference; if you could shoot a medium pulse laser every 2 seconds, sure the heat generation would be insane, but the damage per second would probably make it worthwhile for skirmishers who can fire off a few volleys for high damage and then leave to cool off. I would certainly consider pulse lasers an attractive prospect in a Jenner at 2s refire time; just build heat and then go.

I guess I prefer this style of balancing to say, the kind that was used on Arty/Airstrikes. Imagine if Paul had quadrupled LPL damage and just left it that way going on four months now like was done for those two modules?

[Chrithu]

I didn't bother to test them. Their problem in my view allways was their heat not their range. So I could care less about any minor range buff combined with a non-buff to heat.

What really needs a buff back to the higher projectile speed is my beloved PPCs ( ).

[rcb28]

Regarding pulse laser here's an idea to maybe make them more viable and distinct.
Maybe it's already implement, I dont know as I haven't delve into pulse lasers much.

Why not make the first few pulse deal more damage and then the suceeding pulse less.
If let say that current MPL fires six pulses, each pulse dealing 1 damage. Why not make the first pulse do 2 damage, next pulse 1.5, next 1 and last few pulses .5.

If I recall correctly, pulse laser deliver damage much faster than regular laser.
With this mechanic, pulse laser will surely deliver a much faster damage, than regular lasers.

Just my two cents.

[Huntsman]

Why are they getting more range? Brawling weapons should have crappy range. They need to run cooler with higher DPS, but have terrible range.

The trouble is, while many BT purists fault the devs for moving too far away from TT, the reality is that MWO is far more in line with TT than any MW game to date, and the devs have been very reluctant to alter certain aspects of TT weapons design, despite the fact that they never really worked, and certainly don't line up with a balanced non-round based game.

[Noesis]

20m range was virtually meaningless to MPL as a brawling weapon.

Almost representative of not understanding the issues with them.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 27 February 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

What if I Deathlike it?

Is that a good or bad thing? It sounds chaotic to me!

Quote

Although the last ten posts are fairly salient, we're sort of at the point that machine guns were at 6-8 months ago (has it really been that long?) where pretty much every suggestion has been made, and any single one of them would be better than nothing, but because we're getting tiny buffs, nothing is what we get. The only relevant thing I can add is that whatever happens to the pulse family, I hope it comes with a duration decrease to .4-.3s. Sure, the shorter beam duration is slightly advantageous right now (see my post on the previous page for why I think it doesn't help much) but really, it doesn't do enough to distinguish them as a weapons system distinct from normal lasers right now, and the massive disadvantages don't come even close to making up for the slightly shorter beam time. I would also add that unlike the last few posters, even just decreasing the recycle time without changing heat or damage would make a big difference; if you could shoot a medium pulse laser every 2 seconds, sure the heat generation would be insane, but the damage per second would probably make it worthwhile for skirmishers who can fire off a few volleys for high damage and then leave to cool off. I would certainly consider pulse lasers an attractive prospect in a Jenner at 2s refire time; just build heat and then go.

Well, going the cooldown route (even if we don't modify damage, heat, and duration) by reducing them by 25%-33% to even up to 50% from their non-pulse brethren could work. At least, they wouldn't the poor cousins of the laser anymore. However, the DHS commitment and role would change dramatically...

Quote

I guess I prefer this style of balancing to say, the kind that was used on Arty/Airstrikes. Imagine if Paul had quadrupled LPL damage and just left it that way going on four months now like was done for those two modules?

I thought they were called PPCs. You might have heard of them from the Awesome Diaries. I hear the Pretty Baby cries itself to sleep every night, hoping that it would join its brethren in combat, only to not play in Awesome games. Poor baby.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 February 2014 - 07:31 AM.

[Ph30nix]

to me medium pulse lasers were always okay but frankly i only really used them on my hunchie for one build where i wanted to use every hardpoint and wanted to get as much damage as possible.

as far as large pulse laser ive only ever used them because the sound of them rocks.

be nice if the heat of all the beams was alittle more manageble but the pulses are sadly still just way to F'ing hot for the "benefit" they give. especially vs ballistics.

[Magniff]

Since the patch, I've been testing a laser load-out (2 LPL, 2 ML, 1 LL) on my Battlemaster 1-D for several matches and from my perspective laser weapons still run to hot to provide a reliable brawling setup.

To me, the zero travel-time advantage of laser-shots vs. the drawback of not delivering pinpoint damage, does roughly balance out only for pulse lasers. In addition, the main advantage of laser-weapons (no need to carry ammunition) is annihilated by the need for lots of additional heat-sinks.

Therefore I will continue to restrict the use of laser-weapons as a backup or addon weaponry.
IMHO a heat-buff for lasers is really needed to provide a feasible baseline to their use as an alternative main-weaponry.

Greetings from Germany (English is not my first language)
- Magniff -


To provide some numbers on the issue (comparing two LPL's to one AC/20):

The heat dissipation of one DHS is 0.14 heat per second.
One AC/20 (including 3 tons of ammunition) weights 17 tons, requires 13 slots and generates 1.5 heat per second (based on it's cool-down time).
Scaling the heat of two LPL's to the damage output and cool-down time of one AC/20 and adding 3 DHS's delivers:
An overall weight of roughly 17 tons, a requirement of 13 slots and approximately 3.35 heat per second.
Hence the safety from ammo explosions, the extended range and the advantage of unrestricted ammunition of LPL's would need to make up for the 13.25 additionally required DHS's to equalize both weapons.
(For simplicity I didn’t adjust the LPL's weight to the assumed damage output of 20)

EDIT (March 06. 2014): Adjusted the analysis to properly account for the different cool-down times on both weapons.

Edited by Magniff, 06 March 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[ArmandTulsen]

Decrease the cooldown on pulse lasers.

THAT is how you make them viable - competitive, even.

Edited by ArmandTulsen, 05 March 2014 - 01:21 AM.

[Sprouticus]

I have been testing MPL and LPL almost exclusively for the last two weeks and here is my final feedback

1) They still run too hot. There is no getting around the fact that for 2 tons, the MPL and LPL should be able to be used in short range combat more than they are. I can run them in a straffe attack light (FS with 3 mpl)which engages, strikes 3-4 times, then disengages or a fast medium with a similar setup with 2xLPL and medium lasers doing the same, but this is a very small niche playstyle. The overall DPS is very low. If the match turns into a big furball instead of a drawn out affair, you will do terribly.

2) They are wonderful against lights and damaged mech for precision aiming. The lower beam time really does make a difference. At least for me.

3) The extra damage is not worth the tonnage. It is just not.

4) The range increase DID help. Actually quite a bit more than I would have expected. An extra 10m on the mpl and 15m on the LPL would be great, but if other steps are taken is not necessary.



Thoughts on updates

Change the stats to :

MPL: Same heat as ML. 210m, keep beam time as it is today.
LPL: heat to 7.5, 375m range, keep the beam time as it is today.

This means you are trading the 1/2 tons for more damage and shorter range.

As has been pointed out, you want to have a 1:1 bonus /negative if possible. Having lower range, higher heat & more tonnage just for extra damage and shorter beam time is not a great trade.

In their current state they are a very limited niche weapon. Better than betfore but not good.

[Khobai]

Quote

Almost representative of not understanding the issues with them.

This. Giving them a range increase made NO sense. Range isnt the point of pulse lasers. Damage is the point of pulse lasers. So increasing their damage wouldve made the most sense.

All beam duration weapons need a heat decrease too. Lasers in general just run way too hot.

Edited by Khobai, 05 March 2014 - 06:00 AM.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Digging Sprout's critique here. Nice little buff but ultimately not enough.

Tested LPL extensively on my DDC with the thouht that ECM would give me better opportunity to reach optimal ranges to use them. Did decently well and then swapped them out for ERLL/LLand the extra DHS that freed up tonnagae allowed for. Immediately saw increased metrics across all categories. Tried a third set of matches with a PPC version of the build which fell in between in performance....much of that I attribute to DDC having no JJs.

Bottom line, the incentive to take LPL just is not there. Another round of incremental changes is probably in order imo.

Edited by Lukoi, 05 March 2014 - 06:05 AM.

[Varent]

I still say the pulse laser needs an overall all together. Range shouldnt matter, its a brawling weapon (IMO). Lower cool down drastically, lower heat drastically, Lower damage drastically and make it basically hit scan like machine guns, reward players who flank with them and allow for massive dps long as you can stay on target. I would use the hell out of them then on a ton of medium flankers.

[Radbane]

Khobai, on 05 March 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

All beam duration weapons need a heat decrease too. Lasers in general just run way too hot.

Tell me about it. I'm grinding my quite new Jester, and it just ain't fun at all. You either build it with managable heat but with a damageoutput of a light, or you overheat way to fast. Eitherway, lasers just cant compete with other weapons in sustained dps. Pure energymechs are a joke.

[Varent]

Radbane, on 05 March 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Tell me about it. I'm grinding my quite new Jester, and it just ain't fun at all. You either build it with managable heat but with a damageoutput of a light, or you overheat way to fast. Eitherway, lasers just cant compete with other weapons in sustained dps. Pure energymechs are a joke.

4 erlarge lasers. 19-20 double heat sinks. fire in groups of two large lasers.

or 2 ppc 4 medium laser and take your pick at engagement ranges.