157 replies to this topic

[Shae Starfyre]

Greetings,

In case some of you are not aware of the term, Attrition Management simply put: The objective is to reveal the key factors that impact attrition, so that organizations (games) may be able to address the problem at the root level and improve retention (New Players).

There have been a few posts, and some directly related to Premade Groups, ELO, and the Matchmaker.

I am here to talk about Cyber Bullying and Harassment as one of these "Key Factors."
While I am an advocate of pug/premade separation (2 man groups, 1 per side, is acceptable; "Hey, buddy"), I think we are all forgetting the psychological aspect of the "Stomp" on retention of new players and some old players, like myself (well, I'll keep playing regularly, but lack respect for the "bully in the box").

I see no reason not to separate these groups, and to radically change the match maker parameters to lose the need to form 4-12 man groups outside of organized matches (hopefully, with Clan Warfare, this will be realized).

However, something can be done now; there is no reason that 10 versus 10 is not viable, or 3 versus 4... think scenario based drops. YOU DO NOT NEED TO FILL ALL THE SLOTS TO HAVE FUN; but when you fill it with 4 man... 12 man groups against a bunch of lone wolfs who did not sign up with a corporation to be that fill, is paramount to cyber bullying and runs the risk of losing more players.

These premade groups, using their third party communication tools, are essentially the man playing poker with a friend standing behind each other player revealing their hands. It is not fun for the receiver, and those players who repeatedly lose will be demoralized and move on. The premade will be cast in the light of dishonor, being cowards, and, conversely, lose their own joy down the road as they come to realized, self-realize, that they were not only party to the attrition of this game, but had hollow victories!

While there may not be a legal venue for what I have coined as 'Cyber Bullying' here, there may become a precedence in the future, and I would implore both the players, and PGI/IGP to consider stepping forward and heading up the vanguard of being the first game ever to NOT ALLOW this kind of practice to take place in their environment.

Let us all use third party communications, but if the game does not allow them to form up without prior stipulation, then no harm done to the game as a whole. If they decide to disconnect, the game, prior to start, should be able to move players to even things out. If they disconnect after the start, probably no real loss because everyone else will be on nearly equal footing.

These are just my thoughts, and one last thing: Generally, criminal harassment entails intentionally targeting someone else with behavior that is meant to alarm, annoy, torment or terrorize them. - See more at: http://criminal.find...h.7cw4TAp9.dpuf

Step out of the norm, people, and find your honor on the field of battle, and stop intentionally annoying new players, tormenting them with 'GG' after a 12-0 match, and terrorizing them with 'GLHF' when you know you have the advantage, for I feel 'Alarmed' knowing that I will face unspeakable odds when 3-4 of my team are gone within the first 2 minutes of play, and then I realize; I had no chance, bow out... power down... and resign myself to my fate.

A.

[NextGame]

Are you for real? Or are you just trolling?

Grouping with friends and typing gg != cyber bullying.

Square peg, round hole. glhf

Edited by NextGame, 13 February 2014 - 05:20 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

NextGame, on 13 February 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

Grouping with friends and typing gg != cyber bullying.

This is all you got from reading this?

[NextGame]

Aphoticus, on 13 February 2014 - 05:28 AM, said:

This is all you got from reading this?

It was the only point you made that hasn't been discussed 100 times elsewhere.

Is there any real value in me, or someone else, repeating things like "everyone can group and use teamspeak if they want!" and that "it is up to the player to get better at the game, and not for the game to hold the hand of the player" etc?

I am actually alarmed/annoyed/tormented/terrorized (delete as appropriate) that you are attempting to label group play and the way MWO is set up as "cyber bullying". What does that make your post? (see the problem with throwing unnecessary labels around?)

Edited by NextGame, 13 February 2014 - 05:45 AM.

[Ixion]

tormenting them with GG? seriously?

Did you ever play a team sport as a kid? They make both teams line up and give every player on the other team a high five and say.. good game. Even if they totally stomped them. Its considered good sportsmanship and the fact that so many players bother to make the gesture is actually a positive thing. All GG means is good game, if you are projecting an attitude on it that's your problem.

I think your being overly sensitive about all of these issues. As a pug only player I like playing with or against premades.

[Shae Starfyre]

NextGame, on 13 February 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

I am actually alarmed/annoyed/tormented/terrorized (delete as appropriate) that you are attempting to label group play and the way MWO is set up as "cyber bullying". What does that make your post?

Well, this is interesting, at least. And yes, this was part of my point exactly. I believe that games today foster a sense of cyber bullying; this games stems from a long tradition based on an older generation, and could use a sense of what that generation engendered.

I would like to see a change in the game genre that, as you pointed out as being said before, seperates these groups of players so that there is common ground; the difference between all the other posts, is that the subject of attrition due to cyber bullying has not come up before.

I am curious what the stance of the community is on this?

1.) Do premades that engage in pug play feel like they have hollow victories?
2.) Do they do it because they get the thrill of stomping the competition without any real competition, threat, etc.?
3.) Do the players that receive this "abuse" feel pushed out of the game?
4.) Is the answer, everyone join a group and use TS3?
5.) Is fair play in gaming today, lost to the dollar? Lost to the corporations?
6.) Is the mentality that since it is there, it must be alright, make it alright?

Seems like people, PGI/IGP would retain more new players, make more money, if they consider this specific attrition aspect over others.

Ixion, on 13 February 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

tormenting them with GG? seriously?

Did you ever play a team sport as a kid? They make both teams line up and give every player on the other team a high five and say.. good game. Even if they totally stomped them. Its considered good sportsmanship and the fact that so many players bother to make the gesture is actually a positive thing. All GG means is good game, if you are projecting an attitude on it that's your problem.

I think your being overly sensitive about all of these issues. As a pug only player I like playing with or against premades.

This is not quite the point I was getting at; I am all for sportsmanship; what I am trying to point out, is the perception it makes in conjunction; juxtiposed to the other elements surrounding the "stomp" game play exhibited constantly in this game.

I appreciate the addition to the conversation, but I am looking for forward thinkers who will read the entirity of the message here, and reflect on the broader meanings.

Thank you though.

Edited by Aphoticus, 13 February 2014 - 05:51 AM.

[Amsro]

[R Razor]

TL:DR..............Too lazy or computer illiterate to download 3rd party software.............or............to shy to make friends behind the anonymity of the interwebz................so QQ because others can and it makes me want to quit?

It's that whole "everybody gets a medal whether they win or lose" mentality that has society in the condition it's in now.

Naw brah, you just need to quit crying and start making friends.

I can't believe you went so far as to attempt to claim there could be criminal charges made against people playing a GAME. My man, I take the above back, you need to seek professional help if you really think that.

Edited by R Razor, 13 February 2014 - 06:10 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Aphoticus, on 13 February 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

well written nonsense

Matches are almost never premade vs PUG, they are usually premades and PUGs vs other premades and PUGs.
There are problems with this game, but this isn't one.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 13 February 2014 - 06:12 AM.

[NextGame]

Aphoticus, on 13 February 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

I appreciate the addition to the conversation, but I am looking for forward thinkers who will read the entirity of the message here, and reflect on the broader meanings.

Thank you though.

Translation: Don't post if you don't agree that premades are bullying. How selective and blinkered can you get?

[Shae Starfyre]

R Razor, on 13 February 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

TL:DR..............Too lazy or computer illiterate to download 3rd party software.............or............to shy to make friends behind the anonymity of the interwebz................so QQ because others can and it makes me want to quit?

It's that whole "everybody gets a medal whether they win or lose" mentality that has society in the condition it's in now.

Naw brah, you just need to quit crying and start making friends.

I can't believe you went so far as to attempt to claim there could be criminal charges made against people playing a GAME. My man, I take the above back, you need to seek professional help if you really think that.

Nothing here that remotely touches on the subject except the criminal charge part; I bet future gaming will be policed (mark my words); if a company does not lay down a fair rule set, a competitive (wonder why this is not an e-sport yet) foundation that entitles all to allow their skills, whether through team play or as individuals in a chaotic brawl, there may well be greater consequences than lack of money.

But aside from all that; I am speaking of attrition, and one of the psychological aspects of this game that may be contributing to it.

Thank you, once again, for your added insight, but this is not really constructive in anyway. I appreciate the effort though.

[3rdworld]

Are we so thin skinned now?

Getting rolled now equals bullying.

Edited by 3rdworld, 13 February 2014 - 06:18 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

NextGame, on 13 February 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

Translation: Don't post if you don't agree that premades are bullying. How selective and blinkered can you get?

You can disagree; just add to it.. give it some substance.

If I wanted to say, what you think my translation is, I would have posted that.

Again, thanks for the contribution, but it really isn't adding anything to the subject.

[Gambino87]

Welcome to World of Political Correctness.

Let me blow up my damn enemies and enjoy it please. Who I do it with is non of your concern, sir.

[Shae Starfyre]

3rdworld, on 13 February 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

Are we so thin skinned now?

Getting rolled now equals bullying.

It might to some on a mental level; could question the merit whether they should be playing at all. But, this is not the full subject of this thread. It is only a facet, and while the concept of 'suck it up' is a fair counter point, I would only agree if the playing field were equal.

I have seen this term used in various ways, and always, the one receiving the term has equal footing to base an attempt on; whether he had the skill or not is another question to muster through?!?

[Joseph Mallan]

Aphoticus, on 13 February 2014 - 04:26 AM, said:

Greetings,

In case some of you are not aware of the term, Attrition Management simply put: The objective is to reveal the key factors that impact attrition, so that organizations (games) may be able to address the problem at the root level and improve retention (New Players).

There have been a few posts, and some directly related to Premade Groups, ELO, and the Matchmaker.

I am here to talk about Cyber Bullying and Harassment as one of these "Key Factors."
While I am an advocate of pug/premade separation (2 man groups, 1 per side, is acceptable; "Hey, buddy"), I think we are all forgetting the psychological aspect of the "Stomp" on retention of new players and some old players, like myself (well, I'll keep playing regularly, but lack respect for the "bully in the box").

I see no reason not to separate these groups, and to radically change the match maker parameters to lose the need to form 4-12 man groups outside of organized matches (hopefully, with Clan Warfare, this will be realized).

However, something can be done now; there is no reason that 10 versus 10 is not viable, or 3 versus 4... think scenario based drops. YOU DO NOT NEED TO FILL ALL THE SLOTS TO HAVE FUN; but when you fill it with 4 man... 12 man groups against a bunch of lone wolfs who did not sign up with a corporation to be that fill, is paramount to cyber bullying and runs the risk of losing more players.

These premade groups, using their third party communication tools, are essentially the man playing poker with a friend standing behind each other player revealing their hands. It is not fun for the receiver, and those players who repeatedly lose will be demoralized and move on. The premade will be cast in the light of dishonor, being cowards, and, conversely, lose their own joy down the road as they come to realized, self-realize, that they were not only party to the attrition of this game, but had hollow victories!

While there may not be a legal venue for what I have coined as 'Cyber Bullying' here, there may become a precedence in the future, and I would implore both the players, and PGI/IGP to consider stepping forward and heading up the vanguard of being the first game ever to NOT ALLOW this kind of practice to take place in their environment.

Let us all use third party communications, but if the game does not allow them to form up without prior stipulation, then no harm done to the game as a whole. If they decide to disconnect, the game, prior to start, should be able to move players to even things out. If they disconnect after the start, probably no real loss because everyone else will be on nearly equal footing.

These are just my thoughts, and one last thing: Generally, criminal harassment entails intentionally targeting someone else with behavior that is meant to alarm, annoy, torment or terrorize them. - See more at: http://criminal.find...h.7cw4TAp9.dpuf

Step out of the norm, people, and find your honor on the field of battle, and stop intentionally annoying new players, tormenting them with 'GG' after a 12-0 match, and terrorizing them with 'GLHF' when you know you have the advantage, for I feel 'Alarmed' knowing that I will face unspeakable odds when 3-4 of my team are gone within the first 2 minutes of play, and then I realize; I had no chance, bow out... power down... and resign myself to my fate.

A.

You had an intersting post, until the highlighted.

For every mountain there is a higher. For every ist there is a faster.

I honor my opponents by giving them my best in every match. Sometimes its enough, some times its not, and sometimes it is to much. If you cannot accept losing or being beaten you should not participate in a PvP game.

Poker is a solitary player game, this is a team game. Communication is a necessary part of a team endeavor.

[NextGame]

Aphoticus, on 13 February 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

You can disagree; just add to it.. give it some substance.

If I wanted to say, what you think my translation is, I would have posted that.

Again, thanks for the contribution, but it really isn't adding anything to the subject.

Sorry, but I refer you back to the fact that nothing you have posted in this thread adds anything new to the subject, other than accusations of premades = bullying.

So, thanks for your lavish contribution to the efforts of the "oh noes, the premades are coming.." brigade. I guess?

[Thanatos676]

Yep, another "lets blame premades for everything that is wrong with MWO" thread...

[Gambino87]

Thanatos676, on 13 February 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

Yep, another "lets blame premades for everything that is wrong with society" thread...

Fixed =)

[Shae Starfyre]

Gambino87, on 13 February 2014 - 06:21 AM, said:

Welcome to World of Political Correctness.

Let me blow up my damn enemies and enjoy it please. Who I do it with is non of your concern, sir.

I applaud you, sir. As this is exactly what we need in this game. Please; those of like mind, with like tactics, with like ability, please...go off and blow each other up.

Or are you saying that, psychologically, you are inclined to destroy whatever is in your path by any means, regardless the cost to the game, the franchise, or the players trying to learn?

Yes, new players, save your money; you are destined to die unless you do it their way, only their way, and become what they are.... Monsters!