99 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Roland, on 25 February 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

(A Good Idea)

I like the idea. It solves the overall problem and it did get me thinking.

On the other hand, it suffers from two distinct issues.

1) MM complexity. How would this be "enforced" by the game? I understand the overall idea that those are the teams you'd like to construct, but how does that really work with premades? Outside of 12-mans, this would make the MM's job harder really. I'm not sure how the MM would negotiate such an idea. It would only work better if there were more people in the queue... I know you'd be able to enforce something on the client-side on how you construct the small-group premade. It's not going to be as simple as you'd think. Something will eventually have to give... Elo or your specified criteria?

2) It doesn't solve bad mechs.. but more importantly, does the average player have a big enough mechbay stash to make this viable? Think about this for a moment... Unlike older MW games where we have complete access to every mech so you always have tonnage related options for every situation, but if we stick with the base 4 mechbays that every newbie gets, well, there's not gonna be much variety for a while. Unless achievements expand this to a comfortable number (and it would have to be extra generous), this is technically unfeasible for just regular PUG matches. When was the last time you saw a competent Quickdraw or Dragon was fielded? I like options but just remember that these things are being done for simply regular matches. CW will probably demand more from players and that's to be expected, but the ideas have to be constructed in such a way that is simply MM AND player friendly... and the idea, while it tickles me mind, is simply significantly harder to create....

Edit:
Also, with your suggested tonnages, I would rather field more Commandos than the useless Lolcust. 2 Commando-2Ds with a Jenner is still pretty good. Also, even if we "eliminated" the Victor, the Stalker would get more play than the Awesome easily. 2 Stalkers + Highlander would be fairly viable option.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 February 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[Roland]

Yeah, both of those problems are legitimate... The matchmaker could certainly have issues if it's trying to match up a bunch of mixed up groups.

And the second issue is also a problem, since some folks may simply not HAVE the mech that fits the drop dec correctly.

The problem is though, that we've got conflicting goals. On one hand, we want folks to not just keep dropping the exact same thing every time.. but on the other hand, we want to let folks drive whatever they want.

Those two goals don't work together.

Tons of mechs in the game, like the locust, are simply BAD... especially in MWO, where machine guns don't work. The only reason to bring certain mechs, is because they are lighter.

[Heffay]

The problem with BV is that every time you add a new item, module, change the value of an existing one, etc, you have to recalculate the BV for each and every mech in the game (i.e all the ones in people's mech bays). And for some modules, there is no way to establish a BV; if a mech has a smoke screen module, what score do you give that?

It's a complicated value that can cause a lot of problems for PGI. And if you guess and give an item or mech an incorrect BV, then they'll be either at an advantage or disadvantage; possibly significantly so.

Elo and weight limits or class limits. That's good enough and probably better than any other feasible system out there.

[Prezimonto]

Roland, on 25 February 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

The reason why PGI can't get tonnage balancing to work, however, is that most of the middle weight mechs are essentially garbage.

So, if they go with tonnage, then what happens is folks take lights and assaults... which really constitutes no change from what they would choose to bring anyway.

Honestly, what they need to do is a hybrid of what they have done here and tonnage limits.

They need to have the class restriction, COMBINED with a tonnage restriction.

So, what you have is this:
Assault Class: 3 Assaut Mechs, Total tonnage 260
Heavy Class: 3 Heavy Mechs, Total tonnage 195
Medium Class: 3 Medium Mechs, Total tonnage 135
Light Class: 3 Light Mechs, Total Tonnage 85 tons


The result of this is that you have to bring mechs of every weight class, so medium mechs aren't just auto-rejected.

At the same time, there is actually some desire to bring some of the less optimal chassis, since their lighter weigh is actually rewarded. For instance, a "standard" drop dec might be this:

Victor(80), Highlander(90), Highlander(90)
Catapult(65), Jagermech(65), Catapult(65)
Cicada(40), Blackjack(45), Centurion(50)
Commando(25), Spider(30), Spider(30)

However, this could be swapped around to some other configurations:
Victor, Victor, Atlas
Cataphract, Jagermech, Quickdraw
Cicada, Cicada, Wolverine
Locust, Spider, Firestarter

Basically, within any category, you really can't just bring whatever you want. And generally, you can't bring multiples of the really heavy mechs. For instance, you couldn't bring two Atlases. You couldn't bring more than one Cataphract, or Jenner, or Raven.

Because the average tonnage for each mech class is below the middle point of the weight class, you actually end up needing to bring some of the lighter mechs if you want to bring some of the heavier ones. Suddenly, a mech like the locust actually has SOME (albeit marginal) value. With this combination, of limiting factors, you basically force some degree of variance. Although, as new mechs are released, this would likely be broken.

Some of the weight classes, like the assault class, are a bit less affected by this, in that one of the best assaults is the victor and is also the lightest... And in order to drop an atlas at all, you basically need to have the total tonnage reach 260 for the group, so I can't really find any way to get the Awesome to be used, without some kind of battlevalue system that accounts for the fact that it's generally just worse than the Victor. Interestingly enough, if the victor didn't exist, then folks would be forced to drop at least one awesome if they wanted to drive highlanders and atlases, which would actually balance things perhaps.

I like it.

I'd like it a bit more if the weighting was for 4 mediums and 2 assaults, but with the tonnage and class limits in I see you need at least 3 to have the wiggle room on the tonnage side.

The down side is that pugs would scream bloody murder if it was applied to them. So is this only for groups, or would you expect to have it apply to all?

[RG Notch]

No Command Chair post to explain PGI's latest PR snafu and contradictory statements yet? Truly shocking.

[Deathlike]

RG Notch, on 25 February 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

No Command Chair post to explain PGI's latest PR snafu and contradictory statements yet? Truly shocking.

Not soon™ enough.

[Heffay]

RG Notch, on 25 February 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

No Command Chair post to explain PGI's latest PR snafu and contradictory statements yet? Truly shocking.

The NGNG guys said last night on the Twitch stream that an answer was coming on Wednesday.

[Roland]

Heffay, on 25 February 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

The problem with BV is that every time you add a new item, module, change the value of an existing one, etc, you have to recalculate the BV for each and every mech in the game (i.e all the ones in people's mech bays). And for some modules, there is no way to establish a BV; if a mech has a smoke screen module, what score do you give that?

It's a complicated value that can cause a lot of problems for PGI. And if you guess and give an item or mech an incorrect BV, then they'll be either at an advantage or disadvantage; possibly significantly so.

I actually presented a system which would solve all those problems, balance itself, and not require PGI to continually try to set appropriate BV's.

[Peiper]

Heffay, on 25 February 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

The problem with BV is that every time you add a new item, module, change the value of an existing one, etc, you have to recalculate the BV for each and every mech in the game (i.e all the ones in people's mech bays). And for some modules, there is no way to establish a BV; if a mech has a smoke screen module, what score do you give that? It's a complicated value that can cause a lot of problems for PGI. And if you guess and give an item or mech an incorrect BV, then they'll be either at an advantage or disadvantage; possibly significantly so. Elo and weight limits or class limits. That's good enough and probably better than any other feasible system out there.

Are you kidding? You don't have to add up battle values by hand, you know! That's why they invented COMPUTERS.

[GalaxyBluestar]

VXJaeger, on 25 February 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

I'd like to have energy weapon slot in the butt, so I could install flamer there. Instantly I hit throttle to backup, it would automatically roast everybody, friend or foe, that is behind me.

That would be glorious.

fool you would want to engauge MASC and have the visual boost effect. that would be glorious. my mech goes up to 11 with flames out the tailpipe!

Peiper, on 25 February 2014 - 01:57 PM, said:

Are you kidding? You don't have to add up battle values by hand, you know! That's why they invented COMPUTERS.

BV couldn't even by the power of computers compensate for the HSR varying choices of pilot skill {i've seen lords rambo and die for lulzs} and such randoms that were never apart of TT. and the customisations, ghost heats etc only makes it more complicated. i'd love it but it's so all encompassing in order to function correctly it becomes too impractical for MWO. and nothing can save us form DC's.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 25 February 2014 - 05:27 PM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

If they will go out with 2 mechs/month it should force me to use mine 128 days of saved premium for c-bills bonus...well only if I will not buy whole mechpack bcuz then I will have some c-bills for IS mechs only .

[Abivard]

When you try to please everybody, you end up pleasing no one.

It was late when I read this, but in the cast they seemed to keep contradicting themselves, and the numbers they presented seemed to change as the podcast went on.

In any case I would really not rather be spending two to three times the amount of time preparing for a drop then I spend IN the drop playing.

All these ideas seem to involve the conceptual flaw that Cat's are easy to herd, they are not! And players of online games like this are worse than cat's.

In any case, all this baaing is really moot, comrade wolf knows which of us to eat already.

[Damocles]

Ditch the matchmaker.

Add a lobby with chat and gamerooms and slots for players to fill.
Team 1
Assault 1 slot
Assault 2 slot
Assault 3 slot
heavy slot medium light etc..

For CW add a faction restriction to the teams


Everyone readies votes for a map picks their mech and is in-game listening to Betty.

[WarHippy]

Dymlos2003, on 22 February 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

Not really, sounds pretty good for solo queuing

As someone who drops solo almost all the time I think it sounds pretty bad. I don't mind going up against groups, and a lot of what they mentioned as being a big improvement for solo players does not actually improve it for me.

[Colonel Fubar]

Thank you for the text Summary, its always helpful to have a written copy for reference. Now I can read the finer points and wait with anticipation for the flowers to grow up my back side with so much PGI sunshine blown its way.

Edited by Danny Fubar Col 21C RHG, 07 March 2014 - 11:26 PM.

[Novakaine]

Peiper, on 23 February 2014 - 02:02 AM, said:

You are mixing three different arguments together here. First, to allay your fears, it appears Russ has weighed in and said that we won't lose our four man groups. More to come, but none of this has anything to do with Clan vs. IS tech issues. I would like to see 2-12 man teams possible in the 12 man queues, and it sounds like eventually that may happen, especially by the time we get community warfare, which I think is scheduled for Fall 2024.

The other issue is a game balance issue, more than a faction issue. People overall want to fight a fair fight, and IF Clans have better tech, then there must be a way to balance them against Inner Sphere forces. However, since PGI is attempting to make Clan tech on par with IS tech, it shouldn't matter that much which mechs we use, and we should be able to mix them up in the same team.

The argument about putting 6 factions (plus Comstar, St. Ives, etc...) into 2 buckets sounds like it's going to make some of the borders completely meaningless. Not all Steiners get along with Davions, and Liao doesn't get along with anyone. And what about that brand new nation, the FRR? What, do they just sit around carving wooden dolls and brewing honey mead until the clans render them irrelevant? Because they aren't historically allied with ANYONE - or at war with their neighbors either. What the players want is a sandbox for what if? scenarios. This argument has nothing to do with mech technology.

Technology doesn't define a faction. Culture does. Fluff (lore) does. Friendships and teams in the Mechwarrior community ultimately define them. Players very carefully decide who they want to fight for and why. They forge bonds over years. They don't want to all of a sudden be lumped into alliances with people who they have animosity toward. There are plenty of Dracs who don't want to do anything to increase the territory of the Capellan Confederation. There are people, mostly Davions, who can't separate Katrina Steiner (who won't rise to power for several years) with Melissa Steiner-Davion's benevolent rule over a mostly reasonable population and thus HATE all things Steiner. The Smoke Jaguars aren't all fascists and would love the chance avoid the planet Turtle Bay all together and fight an honorable war. The Jade Falcons and the Wolves are in COMPETITION with each other for territory. WHY would they help each other gain more territory?

If we are to fight out a Clan Invasion, where the Clans could actually have a chance at ceasing Terra and/or refuse to work with Comstar and elect and IlKhan that won't sell out the clans at Tukkyid, now THAT would be community warfare. Likewise, what if the Inner Sphere stopped the Clan Invasion before it could even break out of the Periphery? What if the FRR decides to join with the Ghost Bears in a grand alliance and the Clans don't even have to fight their way through the FRR and can strike straight for Tharkad, New Avalon and Terra before the Inner Sphere can learn from their defeats and learn too late? Well, whatever, what I mean is: if we're NOT going to fight out the clan invasion, and we're not going to have a sandbox model that would allow us to fight out the 4th Succession War or a 5th made-up Succession War, then WHO CARES who has what mechs available to them? It'll be like MW4 Mercs where you can just go to a supermarket and pick up the latest toys.

PGI, please don't mess up Community Warfare. Please.

Sadly it is already a done deal.
There will be no Succession Wars.
No Clans Wars.
It will be exactly what you have stated MW4 Mercenaries - with better graphics.
By killing off the team aspect of the game they have most effectively destroyed what it means to be IS or a Clan faction.
Most of those teams are probably long gone.
Now all we will get is a tasteless milky amalgam of IS mechs running around with Clankers pretending to either or on the same team.
Three Davions's, 3 Mariks, 3 Clankers and 3 Kurita's defending what?
But as a by product for PGI no real need for Community Warfare.
Because at any given time your most hated enemy will proably be fighting right next to you.
Sad.

[ZealotTheFallen]

Titanfall and all the other games warthunder etc will see an influx of more users as this game slowly dies, as it has from the first lie out of their mouths. A great game going down the toilet by ever patch and every word out of thier mouths. It seems all they are doing now is reacte to the fallout, too little too late. Achievements at this time are nice, but will just solidify the Call of Robot state with teamwork gone as players will be going after their own stats and goals. IMO the pillar of community and true teamwarfare has been toppled and will never come back.

Edited by ZealotTheFallen, 16 March 2014 - 08:57 AM.

[Alex Warden]

i´ll be back at Warthunder as soon as the tanks addon is public... Shadowrun Online around summer; Elite: Dangerous is being predicted to be realeased around September, just as PGI said about CW... i´ll be curious which one comes out first, and which one will be in a better state...

i won´t bet too much on CW... i don´t say that without some heartache, believe me that much...

Edited by Alex Warden, 19 March 2014 - 05:16 PM.

[Masterrix]

.

Did I read correct and PGI wants to release 16 chassis within 8 months ? (8 clans + 8 ISs)

is 70% of this noob-crew only working on mech-sellers ? WTF

the community said 1 billion times that we are sick of getting mechsellers while the more important things are constantly delayed and halfbaken when released

they did little to nothing to improve the terrible UI2.0 in the last patches but nice to know that this halfbaken mediocre game will be flooded with new chassis twice as fast in the future as they already did

.

Edited by Masterrix, 22 April 2014 - 02:35 AM.

[QuaxDerBruchpilot]

Peiper, on 22 February 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

[Can I get a fart module that drives leg humping pugs from behind my mech so they don't use me as cover and I can back up when I'm getting pounded? -Peiper]

I second this.

ROFLMAO