63 replies to this topic

[Ordellus]

"-There is around 20 total staff working on content from maps, to `Mechs including hero, champion as well as skins and cockpit items.

Remember all these staff do not contribute to features like CW and UI 2.0 they also do not drain away from those efforts

7 staff under production, developer support (internal QA), marketing and community management.

This leaves 18 staff, all engineers to work on both live ops and feature development. And right there lies the key, if these 18 engineers could focus solely on feature development things would move much faster but these people have to also manage the live ops so there is always a constant stream of work involved to keep the game running smoothly, rollout patches, update the Patcher/Launcher, database management and other MWO tools.

So the end result is you are only getting a fluctuating amount of full time effort from some portion of those 18 engineers to make the forward progress."

->So basically there are more people dedicated to pumping out cash mechs, than are even employed to run and create meaningful content for the entire actual game. Guess we know what this company is about.

Long story short, get used to MechHalo: Cashshop..... that's all you're ever going to get.


P.S. Also a statement about the company recently finding out that their license doesn't expire in 2015? So what, you were just going to keep pumping out items for the cash shop until it expired next year?

Edited by Ordellus, 22 February 2014 - 06:28 PM.

[Abivard]

I believe they also said it takes 12 of them full time for the live-ops, which seems to leave 6 , which implies that at TOP involvement the max number that could possibly be working on the game is 6.

[Khobai]

the sad thing is just about anyone on the forums can edit an .xml file and balance weapons better than PGI has... dont need an engineer for that. just someone who actually plays the game.

[Sandpit]

smh

okie dokie smokie

I wonder if seagulls ever think about cheeseburgers?

[Ordellus]

Abivard, on 22 February 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

I believe they also said it takes 12 of them full time for the live-ops, which seems to leave 6 , which implies that at TOP involvement the max number that could possibly be working on the game is 6.

so.... (6/ (20 + 7 + 18)) * 100 = 13.33% of their workforce uses the money you pay them to make the game that is advertised....

the other 86%... that goes to making sure you keep paying them.

[FactorlanP]

You aren't the first person to notice that the staff appears to be pretty heavy on the side of the equation that involves dipping into your wallet.

Honestly, I really don't have a problem with it, as long as they demonstrate an ability to actually develop the game side as well.

Even as a pretty frequent critic, I am willing to take them at their word that UI2.0 will release the bottleneck and allow them to release game content much quicker now.

That said, the ball is definitely in their court to actually get that game content out.

There will be little tolerance for missed deadlines and craptastic work... The clock is ticking to get the UI2.0 mess cleaned up and properly functional.

tic tock tic tock

[Craig Steele]

Ordellus, on 22 February 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

"-There is around 20 total staff working on content from maps, to `Mechs including hero, champion as well as skins and cockpit items.

Remember all these staff do not contribute to features like CW and UI 2.0 they also do not drain away from those efforts

7 staff under production, developer support (internal QA), marketing and community management.

This leaves 18 staff, all engineers to work on both live ops and feature development. And right there lies the key, if these 18 engineers could focus solely on feature development things would move much faster but these people have to also manage the live ops so there is always a constant stream of work involved to keep the game running smoothly, rollout patches, update the Patcher/Launcher, database management and other MWO tools.

So the end result is you are only getting a fluctuating amount of full time effort from some portion of those 18 engineers to make the forward progress."

->So basically there are more people dedicated to pumping out cash mechs, than are even employed to run and create meaningful content for the entire actual game. Guess we know what this company is about.

Long story short, get used to MechHalo: Cashshop..... that's all you're ever going to get.


P.S. Also a statement about the company recently finding out that their license doesn't expire in 2015? So what, you were just going to keep pumping out items for the cash shop until it expired next year?

So what's the point here?

Virtually every product / service has a significantly larger sales force than the production of it. Cars, toasters, restuarants, clubs. It's business 101 to reduce your production cost and increase your market penetration.

So the maths has deduced that PGI is apparently no different to virtually every other company in the world.

[SirLANsalot]

FactorlanP, on 22 February 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

You aren't the first person to notice that the staff appears to be pretty heavy on the side of the equation that involves dipping into your wallet.

Honestly, I really don't have a problem with it, as long as they demonstrate an ability to actually develop the game side as well.

Even as a pretty frequent critic, I am willing to take them at their word that UI2.0 will release the bottleneck and allow them to release game content much quicker now.

That said, the ball is definitely in their court to actually get that game content out.

There will be little tolerance for missed deadlines and craptastic work... The clock is ticking to get the UI2.0 mess cleaned up and properly functional.

tic tock tic tock

You can't have your cake and eat it too.


You are the exact reason PGI no long puts out solid deadlines unless they are 100% sure they can make it. U.I 2.0 came out ON TIME, yet you crucify them on the fact its not perfect. Yet you would of done the same thing if they missed the deadline to make it perfect. Case in point....SHUT UP and be happy that something new came out and it was 90% GOOD!

Hell when the first UI came out (and its update) it was far worse then what we have now, with far less info. Ya the Mechlab was a little better in the old ui, but that was AFTER tweaking was done. The same will happen here, UI2.0 wasn't perfect, nor was 1.0 (1.5 was much better yes). Its the same damn cycle people......shut it already.




As for the numbers the company has? Ya even I was a little head scratching about over half of them were artists, which makes sense really since that was the first part of the game that was actually done (getting mechs into the game in a timely manner). Other key things like game modes, take much more work to program and get working. Ya some of them are just modifications of others, like skirmish is a modification of assault and conquest is too.

[FactorlanP]

SirLANsalot, on 22 February 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can't have your cake and eat it (too) is a popular English idiomatic proverb or figure of speech.Many people misunderstand the meanings of "have" and "eat" as used here but still understand the proverb in its entirety and intent and use it in this form. Some people feel this form of the proverb is incorrect and illogical and instead prefer "you can't eat your cake and have it (too)", which is in fact closer to the original form of the proverb but very rare today. Other rare variants use "keep" instead of "have".

The proverb literally means "you cannot both possess your cake and eat it", "you cannot eat the cake and keep it" or "you can't eat the cake and have it still". It can be used to say that one cannot or should not have or want more than one deserves or can handle, or that one cannot or should not try to have two incompatible things. The proverb's meaning is similar to the phrases "you can't have it both ways" and "you can't have the best of both worlds." Conversely, in the positive sense, it refers to "having it both ways" or "having the best of both worlds."

Having to choose whether to have or eat your cake illustrates the concept of trade-offs or opportunity cost

Edited by FactorlanP, 22 February 2014 - 08:24 PM.

[Craig Steele]

FactorlanP, on 22 February 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

You can't have your cake and eat it (too) is a popular English idiomatic proverb or figure of speech.Many people misunderstand the meanings of "have" and "eat" as used here but still understand the proverb in its entirety and intent and use it in this form. Some people feel this form of the proverb is incorrect and illogical and instead prefer "you can't eat your cake and have it (too)", which is in fact closer to the original form of the proverb but very rare today. Other rare variants use "keep" instead of "have".

The proverb literally means "you cannot both possess your cake and eat it", "you cannot eat the cake and keep it" or "you can't eat the cake and have it still". It can be used to say that one cannot or should not have or want more than one deserves or can handle, or that one cannot or should not try to have two incompatible things. The proverb's meaning is similar to the phrases "you can't have it both ways" and "you can't have the best of both worlds." Conversely, in the positive sense, it refers to "having it both ways" or "having the best of both worlds."

Having to choose whether to have or eat your cake illustrates the concept of trade-offs or opportunity cost

tic
/tɪk/ Show IPA

noun
1.
Pathology .
a.
a sudden, spasmodic, painless, involuntary muscular contraction, as of the face.
b.
tic douloureux.
2.
a persistent or recurrent behavioral trait; personal quirk: her distinctive verbal tics.

vs



tick
¹ /tɪk/ Show IPA

noun
1.
a slight, sharp, recurring click, tap, or beat, as of a clock.
2.
Chiefly British Informal. a moment or instant.
3.
a small dot, mark, check, or electronic signal, as used to mark off an item on a list, serve as a reminder, or call attention to something.
4.
Stock Exchange.
a.
a movement in the price of a stock, bond, or option.
b.
the smallest possible tick on a given exchange.
5.
Manège. a jumping fault consisting of a light touch of a fence with one or more feet.

[FactorlanP]

Craig Steele, on 22 February 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

tic
/tɪk/ Show IPA

noun
1.
Pathology .
a.
a sudden, spasmodic, painless, involuntary muscular contraction, as of the face.
b.
tic douloureux.
2.
a persistent or recurrent behavioral trait; personal quirk: her distinctive verbal tics.

vs



tick
¹ /tɪk/ Show IPA

noun
1.
a slight, sharp, recurring click, tap, or beat, as of a clock.
2.
Chiefly British Informal. a moment or instant.
3.
a small dot, mark, check, or electronic signal, as used to mark off an item on a list, serve as a reminder, or call attention to something.
4.
Stock Exchange.
a.
a movement in the price of a stock, bond, or option.
b.
the smallest possible tick on a given exchange.
5.
Manège. a jumping fault consisting of a light touch of a fence with one or more feet.

lol touche!

Edited by FactorlanP, 22 February 2014 - 11:10 PM.

[Craig Steele]

FactorlanP, on 22 February 2014 - 11:10 PM, said:

lol touche!

[Ordellus]

FactorlanP, on 22 February 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

...

I'm just surprised they announced it so bluntly.

Craig Steele, on 22 February 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

So what's the point here?

Ordellus, on 22 February 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

there are more people dedicated to pumping out cash mechs, than are even employed to run and create meaningful content for the entire actual game. Guess we know what this company is about.

Long story short, get used to MechHalo: Cashshop..... that's all you're ever going to get.

There shortened it for you, since reading is obviously not your strong point.

Craig Steele, on 22 February 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

Virtually every product / service has a significantly larger sales force than the production of it. Cars, toasters, restuarants, clubs. It's business 101 to reduce your production cost and increase your market penetration.

So the maths has deduced that PGI is apparently no different to virtually every other company in the world.

Except it's not sales force or market penetration durk tard.

The "smaller production force" you are talking about is in fact the largest force they mentioned and it "produces" cash mechs...... you know instead of features, stories, weapon balances, etc.

But nice try....

SirLANsalot, on 22 February 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I never mentioned wanting anything. Go back into your moms basement fanboy.

SirLANsalot, on 22 February 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

You are the exact reason PGI no long puts out solid deadlines unless they are 100% sure they can make it. U.I 2.0 came out ON TIME, yet you crucify them on the fact its not perfect.

Again, said nothing about anything other than how many people they have devoted to each department.....

SirLANsalot, on 22 February 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

Hell when the first UI came out (and its update) it was far worse then what we have now, with far less info. Ya the Mechlab was a little better in the old ui, but that was AFTER tweaking was done. The same will happen here, UI2.0 wasn't perfect, nor was 1.0 (1.5 was much better yes). Its the same damn cycle people......shut it already.

Oh he's still trying to defend something no one attacked.... that's nice

SirLANsalot, on 22 February 2014 - 08:19 PM, said:

As for the numbers the company has? Ya even I was a little head scratching about over half of them were artists, which makes sense really since that was the first part of the game that was actually done (getting mechs into the game in a timely manner).

Other key things like game modes, take much more work to program and get working. Ya some of them are just modifications of others, like skirmish is a modification of assault and conquest is too.

Except he's not talking about artists.... he's blatantly saying that 20 of their 38 devs spend all day making maps and cash mechs.... and I don't see many new maps soooooooo

P.S. the "game modes" were made by the non-20 during their spare time

Edited by Ordellus, 22 February 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Ordellus, on 22 February 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

I'm just surprised they announced it so bluntly.





There shortened it for you, since reading is obviously not your strong point (1).



Except it's not sales force or market penetration durk tard (2).

The "smaller production force" you are talking about is in fact the largest force they mentioned and it "produces" cash mechs...... you know instead of features, stories, weapon balances, etc.

But nice try....

(1) And still, your comparison is not making any conclusion. Reading is fine my end, comprehesion of someone elses abstract uncommunicated thoughts is not my strongest point.

If I use the restuarant analogy, there would often be 2 / 3 chefs (engineers), 5+ bar / wait staff (artist) and 2 managers (mangement), All are required to get my meal and drinks and I want both. So I still don't see your problem? Are you saying you don't want new mechs?

(2) Of course it is Durk tard (I have not heard this before so I assume this is a expression of friendship from your culture?) People pay for the shiny bits the same as the wait staff who arrange the meal on my plate and fill the glass with wine, its all part of the end product I am paying for. That fact that it is delivered digitally in this medium doesn't change it's focus. I can cook a steak, I order steak at a restuarant for a dining experience including presentaion.

Anyway, when you get around to communicating your point better happy to review what you've got to say.

Thanks

Edited by Craig Steele, 23 February 2014 - 12:11 AM.

[Appogee]

The irony is that the only thing that is going to keep me spending money is actually community warfare...

Not more Hero Mechs (I have more than enough, thanks) not colors (I bought black and grey, thanks) and not cockpit items (a pointless distraction - I don't use them).

I've spent about $500 on the game (between myself and my two sons), so I'm probably(?) one of the higher paying customers. I hope they saved some of my cash for the months ahead, because I'm done spending til Community Warfare comes out.

[Willard Phule]

Appogee, on 23 February 2014 - 12:30 AM, said:

The irony is that the only thing that is going to keep me spending money is actually community warfare...

Not more Hero Mechs (I have more than enough, thanks) not colors (I bought black and grey, thanks) and not cockpit items (a pointless distraction - I don't use them).

I've spent about $500 on the game (between myself and my two sons), so I'm probably(?) one of the higher paying customers. I hope they saved some of my cash for the months ahead, because I'm done spending til Community Warfare comes out.

Interesting that you're the ONLY one that mentioned the vanity items. Gee, I wonder how long it took them to produce all those silly little vanity items they recently released.

Oh, let's say it took X hours. Wonder what else could have been done with those hours. Well, they certainly couldn't have put in any work on CW...or fixing the UI....or fixing the matchmaker....or balancing weapons....those are all done by the Engineers. Which happen to be the smallest number of employees.

I guess they needed to justify having so many artists on the staff while they waited for the Engineers to read the next chapter of "Cryengine 3 for Dummies".....

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 22 February 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

the sad thing is just about anyone on the forums can edit an .xml file and balance weapons better than PGI has... dont need an engineer for that. just someone who actually plays the game.

But what is balanced to one is not balanced to all. Or we would ALL be using the same 3 weapons, on the same 4 Chassis.

[Bront]

Just keep in mind, adding more engineers doesn't mean things get done faster. There's a time barrier created the more people you have on a project, as you need added communication and you have multiple different brains working on it. For art development, a little less is suffered because projects can be a little more easily segregated (Mech art guy does the posters and mech concept, mech modeling guy does the model, then texture artist can flesh out the textures, etc), but for adding, fixing, and integrating stuff into the core program? That doesn't happen overnight, and isn't fixed simply by throwing people at it.

That's not to say they couldn't use more staff, just that more staff isn't a magical answer in development.

[Mystere]

It sounds just like IBM to me, especially after meeting one of their product development teams and realizing just how small they are compared to their army of sales engineers and the amount of money they were asking for. As such, PGI's staffing sounds normal to me.

[BrockSamsonFW]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 February 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

But what is balanced to one is not balanced to all. Or we would ALL be using the same 3 weapons, on the same 4 Chassis.

...but that's pretty much what happens.

People take different chassis for variety, but almost every mech that can fit ballistics and energy tries to load AC5/20 and PPC. You'll also see some LL, ML, SSRM and LRM thrown in but it's usually because hardpoint or tonnage limitations prevent you from taking the AC5/20+PPC combo. The other weapons are used occasionally but not nearly as often and when it comes to SRM, SL, and Pulse Lasers they are almost never seen at all.