36 replies to this topic

[Wesxander]

Currently I have ecm on my unit. Without it being disabled people are getting locks and using their missiles. They are not using tag, UAVs, or bap. Narc isn't being used as well. So in theory they shouldn't be able to lock right? WRONG there are players using some kind lrm and srm hack to fire weapons when they don't have locks. They are not dumb firing them either. Talking about lights chasing me that haven' disabled my ecm and the enemy LRM carrier is firing with lock. Then with S4m's the same thing get way out side their bap range only to get hit range 400 by streaks. Yes I understand what decay lock is. This is not what is going on. Seeing it mostly at late night.

[Lupin]

Wesxander, on 23 February 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

Currently I have ecm on my unit. Without it being disabled people are getting locks and using their missiles. They are not using tag, UAVs, or bap. Narc isn't being used as well. So in theory they shouldn't be able to lock right? WRONG there are players using some kind lrm and srm hack to fire weapons when they don't have locks. They are not dumb firing them either. Talking about lights chasing me that haven' disabled my ecm and the enemy LRM carrier is firing with lock. Then with S4m's the same thing get way out side their bap range only to get hit range 400 by streaks. Yes I understand what decay lock is. This is not what is going on. Seeing it mostly at late night.

ECM only slows down line of sight lock as far as I know.
Also mech does not appear on radar 180m+, give or take UAV, BAPS, TAG or another ECM in counter mode.

[Ironwithin]

Urgh ... this again ... move along, nothing to see.

[LiGhtningFF13]

Ironwithin, on 23 February 2014 - 01:54 AM, said:

Urgh ... this again ... move along, nothing to see.

Thank you will do so!

[Ximius]

Why do people think that ECM is a magic shield that pops you into another dimension? Yes, you can get locks even if you have ECM. Do you think that for a couple tons suddenly you're invincible? Please....PGI has a lot of balancing issues, but come on...

[Peter2k]

Wesxander, on 23 February 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

Currently I have ecm on my unit. Without it being disabled people are getting locks and using their missiles. They are not using tag, UAVs, or bap. Narc isn't being used as well. So in theory they shouldn't be able to lock right? WRONG there are players using some kind lrm and srm hack to fire weapons when they don't have locks. They are not dumb firing them either. Talking about lights chasing me that haven' disabled my ecm and the enemy LRM carrier is firing with lock. Then with S4m's the same thing get way out side their bap range only to get hit range 400 by streaks. Yes I understand what decay lock is. This is not what is going on. Seeing it mostly at late night.

You should try to record something like this

Haven't noticed what you're describing, if I ever do I'll record it with nvidias shadowplay
Did you contact support with some more details?

On a side note:
ECM is creating a bubble of 180m diameter around you're mech preventing target lock of you and any friendly mech in that bubble, unless it is countered in some manner
It has also other effects that's true

It has been doing that for over a year now, and was criticized loads of times for doing so and weighing next to nothing

[MountainCopper]

Peter2k, on 23 February 2014 - 03:02 AM, said:

On a side note:
ECM is creating a bubble of 180m diameter around you're mech preventing target lock of you and any friendly mech in that bubble, unless it is countered in some manner
It has also other effects that's true

I don't know the exact ranges, but when I approach a battle with a working ECM on an enemy Mech, and I have line of sight, I am allowed to target the ECM-Mech without BAP on any team mates. But I still am not allowed to lock-on missiles in that situation, I think...

Don't know the exact rules for that though...

Edited by GoldenFleece, 23 February 2014 - 03:50 AM.

[whitelightshadow]

That something is up with the missiles is true as I have noticed it too, I have seen odd target locks for streaks & LRM that is not countered by the AMS, ECM or Terrain. The best issue I have seen is 90 degree turns streaks do directly after being fired. There is also the BAP which is a common affecting denominator where it comes to detecting and radar locks.

Have you guys checked the ECM & Missile descriptions on mwowiki.org before we totally agree to disagree and this topic get lost?

This is quotes from the following page:

http://mwo.gamepedia.com/ECM

When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM:

• Enemy Mechs will have to come within 1/4 the normal distance (200 m instead of 800 m, by default) for hidden Mechs to show up on their battlegrid and HUD.
  
• The Beagle Active Probe will extend this range.
  
• It takes twice as long to achieve a missile lock against a hidden Mech.
  
• Narc beacons will stick to hidden Mechs, but they won’t provide their normal bonuses until the Mech leaves the ECM’s range.
  
• Artemis IV does not provide any bonuses against hidden Mechs.

When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM:

• You cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.
  
• You cannot achieve any missile locks.
  
• Your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.
  
• Your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.

Also on the Streak Missile Page:



http://mwo.gamepedia...Range_Missile_2

ECM
While being jammed by ECM, "the lock-on time for Streak missiles will be doubled." While this would be true in tabletop, currently untagged ECM blocks all target locks, within the 180m "Sphere of Influence". If you can manage to stay within 181m and 200m, SSRMs can be used, but this is difficult in practice this zone will also be larger if BAP or the sensor range module is equipped.

On the LRM page:

http://mwo.gamepedia...Range_Missile_5

ECM
While ECM makes the effective use of LRMs slightly more difficult, it is possible. If you are alone with an ECM equipped foe, staying within 181 and 200m will allow you to use your weapons with lock. If you have a TAG spotter, as long as they are at least 181m from the target and maintain the tag on the target, you will have your target. If you have a PPC spotter, you have your target as long as they keep the ECM disabled.

Remember on the normal SRM the ECM have no effect.

Also how do you know the following? "They are not using tag, UAVs, or bap. Narc isn't being used as well." There is no way that you can know that all the time. And there is no way you can know if I have a BAP on my mech unless you have hacked my profile.

So there is my ten cents worth.

Edited by F Henning, 23 February 2014 - 05:08 AM.

[Rasc4l]

Wesxander, on 23 February 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

Currently I have ecm on my unit. Without it being disabled people are getting locks and using their missiles. They are not using tag, UAVs, or bap. Narc isn't being used as well. So in theory they shouldn't be able to lock right? WRONG there are

I've ran to this issue recently with the turrets, which are equipped with an invisible TAG (to the naked eye, like it really would be) and shoot thru ECM.

You can understand my surprise in a DC-Atlas when you're suddenly being ripped apart by that LRM10, which magically gets a missile lock on you.

[Peter2k]

GoldenFleece, on 23 February 2014 - 03:09 AM, said:

[/size]
I don't know the exact ranges, but when I approach a battle with a working ECM on an enemy Mech, and I have line of sight, I am allowed to target the ECM-Mech without BAP on any team mates. But I still am not allowed to lock-on missiles in that situation, I think...

Don't know the exact rules for that though...

Yes like I said
Target lock

You can still target him, up close that is, but no lock on for you're missiles or buddy's since ECM prevents you from a achieving a missile lock and sharing you're data

And well yes there is a trench around that bubble where you can target him, 20m thick, anything closer and you loose missile lock, anything more and you loose missile lock and can't target
you can extend that by putting in a BAP(25%) and sensor range module (25%), which would give you a whooping 30m around that 180m bubble

However a BAP would negate ECM anyway, and you're up close already enough in this case to talk about the 200m range

I also think that guide on ECM is a bit flawed in it self
ECM doubles lock on time with you're streaks and LRM's, once you can actually achieve a lock with them, means it needs to be countered in some way
But not counting a TAG, since a TAG also decreases lock on time for LRM's and ssrm's, even against ECM double lock on time?
Example:
Me in a streak griffing, carrying a BAP against ECM and a TAG for a faster lock on
;Me thinks PGI needs to put together a real manual for they're rules they think of themselfs
Shouldn't be so hard to find out about ghost heat, what weapons are counted together, ECM n all that stuff

Edited by Peter2k, 23 February 2014 - 08:23 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

ECM donut

At long range ECM blocks all targetting. (>200m. 25% of the normal 800m visual target range)

At close range ECM blocks all transfer of data & locks ( <180m)

In between you have a 20 meter broad "donut of detectability". within this donut you still have the benefit of penalizing enemy lock times but are not immune to locks.

Explained quite well via MWOwiki http://mwo.gamepedia...Signal_Strength

Quote

When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM:

• Enemy Mechs will have to come within 1/4 the normal distance (200 m instead of 800 m, by default) for hidden Mechs to show up on their battlegrid and HUD.
  
• The Beagle Active Probe will extend this range.
  
• It takes twice as long to achieve a missile lock against a hidden Mech.
  
• Narc beacons will stick to hidden Mechs, but they won’t provide their normal bonuses until the Mech leaves the ECM’s range.
  
• Artemis IV does not provide any bonuses against hidden Mechs.

Between the ECM’s 180 m range, and the 200 m range for detecting Mechs hidden by ECM, there’s a 20 m radius band where you can detect a hidden Mech, target it, and get a missile lock and/or share the targeting with your teammates.

[Egomane]

Peter2k, on 23 February 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

And well yes there is a trench around that bubble where you can target him, 20m thick, anything closer and you loose missile lock, anything more and you loose missile lock and can't target
you can extend that by putting in a BAP(25%) and sensor range module (25%), which would give you a whooping 30m around that 180m bubble

That math is wrong!

Not the 20m donut (as R2k5 called it) is extended by 25 %, but the overall range of your sensors. In the lower 25 % of the new total sensor range, ECM does not provide cover. Let me show you the real numbers:

Normal Sensors
= 800 meters total range
= 200 meters range to lock on for ECM protected targets

BAP or improved sensor range module
= 1000 meters total range
= 250 meters range to lock on for ECM protected targets

BAP and improved sensor range module
= 1200 meters total range
= 300 meters range to lock on for ECM protected targets

That extends the donut to a 120 meter width. Usually enough time to get a lock on on a target.

Also, some of you seem to forget that you can also lock on below the 180 meter mark. Your LRMs just wont do damage if they are unable to fly at least this far. You can get the lock at 10 meter, hold your fire till the target is at 150 and moving away from you, see your missles fly and hit the opponent just as he crosses the 180 meter mark. Your missles will work perfectly in such a situation.

As a player who has used LRMs with great success even against ECM covered mechs, I never leave the hangar without both and an added target decay module on top. I usually do not need a TAG to kill an ECM mech.

[nightsniper]

I started reading this post hoping to garner something that would explain the unusual lock on I have seen in the past few days. Line of sight does not explain it Tag and BAP were not in play. ECM was being used yet the raining death seemed to be on target and unrelenting lock. I am not going to jump onto the band wagon of a cheat or hack at this time.

I do have a thought have we not accurately accounted for use of the Modules and how they effect the other systems in the game? As more players are getting further along in the upgrades and use of modules are becoming more wide spread are they far more effective then we believe are the mechanics off a bit making them overly effective. I would love to see a post about this and what people are finding. I know the cool shot is extremely effective and the more you use it the more effective they become as you know the heat cool down cycle better and can sustain fire that one or two extra shots for the kill.

Just my two cents and to the OP I think your concern is valid but your conclusion may not have enough evidence. It still maybe the game balance issue and the modifiers skewing the results.

[warner2]

Egomane, on 24 February 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

Normal Sensors
= 800 meters total range
= 200 meters range to lock on for ECM protected targets

BAP or improved sensor range module
= 1000 meters total range
= 250 meters range to lock on for ECM protected targets

BAP and improved sensor range module
= 1200 meters total range
= 300 meters range to lock on for ECM protected targets

That extends the donut to a 120 meter width. Usually enough time to get a lock on on a target.

Do you have a source for this? That last I heard it was the advanced sensor range module that increased the size of the donut, but BAP did not, so the largest donut range you could get was 180 -> 250. Has that changed?

[Egomane]

Nope, no source! Sorry! Only my ingame experience with the systems. I admit I might be off and I will try to look it up.

But even 70 meters for the ASM is a lot more then proclaimed 30 meters of the post I answered to, don't you agree?

[Flying Judgement]

one more thing to add i running LRM Artemis plus PPC combos with BAP in these days and its highly effective against ecm bubble i get a lock very fast and with the second ppc blast the ecm cover is useless

but pls record just to be on the safe side

Edited by Flying Judgement, 24 February 2014 - 09:42 AM.

[fluffypinkbunny]

Last time I was targeted under my ecm bubble, there was a UAV above my head, check for that next time.

[Tesunie]

Last I recalled, they changed ECM so it only effects x closest mechs and then stop providing "invisibility". I've seen and been able to get locks before on none disabled ECM mechs that were being surrounded by my team. (Normally lost t5he lock very quickly though, and it took forever to get the lock too.)

I could be wrong here though, but I thought I read something like that, and I have been seeing this kind of effect in the game (rarely).

[Strum Wealh]

warner2, on 24 February 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

Do you have a source for this? That last I heard it was the advanced sensor range module that increased the size of the donut, but BAP did not, so the largest donut range you could get was 180 -&gt; 250. Has that changed?

Egomane, on 24 February 2014 - 09:28 AM, said:

Nope, no source! Sorry! Only my ingame experience with the systems. I admit I might be off and I will try to look it up.

But even 70 meters for the ASM is a lot more then proclaimed 30 meters of the post I answered to, don't you agree?

Sources are here, here, here, and here.

Base Sensor Range (BSR) is 800 meters.
The "Sensor Range" module increases sensor range by 15% (to ~920 meters).
The "Advanced Sensor Range" module increases sensor range by 25% (to ~1000 meters).
Beagle increases sensor range by 25% (to ~1000 meters from BSR, to ~1150 meters from Sensor Range, or to ~1250 meters from Advanced Sensor Range).

Base Sensors will detect an ECM-cloaked 'Mech (e.g. give the "Low Signal" alert) at 25% of BSR (e.g. 200 meters).
Beagle will increase ECM detection range (e.g. the distance at which the "Low Signal" alert activates) by 25% (to 250 meters).
Guardian (in Disrupt Mode) will actively jam any opposing 'Mech within a 180 meter radius.
Guardian (in Counter Mode) will counter an enemy Guardian (in Disrupt Mode) within a 180 meter radius, on a 1-for-1 basis (e.g. 1 Counter-Guardian counters 1 Disrupt-Guardian, 2 Counter-Guardians counter 2 Disrupt-Guardians, etc).
Beagle will counter an enemy Guardian (in Disrupt Mode) within a 150 meter radius, on a 1-for-1 basis (e.g. 1 Beagle counters 1 Guardian, 2 Beagles counter 2 Guardians, etc).

[Strengar]

I was wondering where the "ECM hack and cheat" conversation went to.
24 hours and only 1 page of ECM conversation? I'm shocked. I was expecting to pull up a couch and some Diet Pepsi and enjoy reading how people will state the world of MWO will end because ECM is a disaster.

:: slinks off in search of the next "The World is Coming to an End Post because xxxxxx is Broken" and takes his boxes of tissues with him ::