194 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Mazzyplz, on 24 February 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

the thing is sometimes the individual doesn't really fail.

and now with narc even more mobile mechs will get tracked around corners by lrm. lights are trolling now more than ever with narc, bap and tag...

force the LRM mechs to fight their own battles or not rely on other mechs to play the game for them

True... But in fairness, that's the "perfect storm" scenario.

To that end, Any single mech that can compromise a substantial number of the opposing team (spotters and speed cappers) should become priority targets.

Any team that does not realize that, deserves to get "rained on" for not recognizing it and re-diverting assets.

[Lykaon]

Mudhutwarrior, on 23 February 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

Pugs hide because there is no coordination with a keyboard and most are sick of being cannon fodder for premades. I would say one out of 30 matches I might see a premade communicate their intentions but that really is rare.

The hide and seek lances are annoying and to just hide till the end is a cowards tactic. Watching your teamamtes get shredded so you can have it easy is wrong no matter how you slice it.

Lack of comms is the biggest culprit in my view and second the idea that pugs are fill second.

As far as anyone calling premades on comms and pugs on keyboards teamwork I think they are the most delude posters here.
Thats not teamwork. [redacted]

Ok so you want your issues addressed?

Here we go then.

PUG hide because there is no coordination.

FALSE,there is great potential for coordination.It's not as efficent as say VOIP or running in a 4 man but there are some under utilized tools available to anyone and every one.

Forge a basic plan as your force is deploying from the drop zone.Most games already have some semblence of strategy present on an individual basis. Most matches I play PUG I see the 3 lances group up before moving out (smart) and then generaly speaking depending on the map and game mode everyone draws a B-line for the same tired old grid point.

So since massing up and moving to the same spot is pretty much a constant I recomend formulating a plan based on those constants.

IE; Group up in grid (x)
Move to Grid (Y)
Hold in cover at Grid (Y)
Lances 1&2 prepare to break cover on order
Lance 3 flank through grid (Z) to Grid (W) on same order (good use of a 4 man if you have it)
Prioritize targets as directed.

You will notice this is essentially an adaptation of what the "hivemind" of pugdom does anyhow just with direction.Instead of clumping up behind cover and playing hidey peeky until there is a clear victor in the attrition game the company moves as a single force.You will not have that solo sacrificial lamb doing not a heck of a lot before getting their mech shot out from under them because 8 mechs will be engaging and 4 will be slamming the door behind them (classic hammer & andvil).

So to avoid puggies hiding past the point they should have commited someone needs to take the reigns and command the charge.

Solution.

Next....

Sick of being cannon fodder for premades? this is just your propaganda and opinion you can not possibly know how every other player feels or their motives.

Also,one could infer from your statement that puggies are inferior to player in premades since the puggies are the "cannon fodder" while the premades kill them aparently with such frequency that the puggies are sick of it.

This is just insulting to puggies.I pug and I premade I do not become cannon fodder just because I'm not on comms with three or eleven other people.I do not become a less accurate gunner of a worse pilot.I do not have such huberous and ego to assume that if I did get destroyed it because a premade made me cannon fodder.Maybe my team didn't play as well,maybe I didn't play well enough.It wasn't the other team's fault they were doing exactally what I was,trying to win a match.

One in 30 matches you see a premade communicate their intentions?

Um...how do you know there was a premade at all if no one was communicating? Do you have some special power that allows you to identify premades with such accuracy that you can say this 1 in 30 claim is at all valid?

So this part is just you shoveling your dogma onto the forums again.I dismissed it it lacks verasity.

As a player who does drop in 4 man premades I can tell you what I learned and since I know I'm in a premade I know one is present.

When we play super casual,That is we are not playing like it's our job our plans are ussually something along the lines of "go that way see bad guy shoot him." We do not inform our team of our intentions because we will be right next to them doing the obvious thing (we are going that way,see bad guys shoot them) Just like they are.

When I'm in a 4 man premade that wants to win a few matches we will almost always inform the rest of the team of our intentions if we have any intentions that are more complex than see bad guy shoot bad guy.


Hide and seek lances? I don't even know what this is? Is this a premade that is not in the giant mechball of puggies that doesn't file into an enemy gunline like lemmings so they were obviously not team players?

Or is a hide and seek lance a light/fast lance that lacks the armor to play hidey peeky at the same spot everyone else always does and since they were not being stupid and playing hidey peeky the rest of their tacticly deficent team is dead before they are?

Or is it what I have experienced several times.8 puggys clump up into a mechball hiding behind cover like they always do at the same grid that is always used doing the very predictable hidey peeky shooty game.Lance 3 (maybe a premade) decides that standing in the back doing nothing is dumb and boring and a losing strategy to boot so they attempt a flank or rear attack.The problem is either the enemy is on the ball or the rest of their team is so difficent that by the time lance 3 is in possition the other 8 mechs on their team are dead or dying.

Sometimes it's stupid to participate in a losing strategy sometimes you have committed forces to a failing battle line.If that last lance wins the game for you they obviously saw a means of exploiting a bad situation and turned a victory for their team.

No matter how you slice it a win is better than a loss.

Lack of comms is a blatant failure in creating a team oriented game with sufficent tools available to everyone to allow everyone some semblance of a fair chance.

We agree 100% on this topic we need comms and lobbies and enhanced community tools.

Trying to get some sembence of teamwork out of a combination of keyboard and voip when 4 players get VOIP and 8 get to try to type under fire is as moronic a situation as you think it is but it's all we have.

[X3 DIES IRAE]

i play since 2 weeks, and yes LRM can be annoying sometimes, but most of the time it's ok imo.
Sometimes you end up with an opponent team largely made of LRM boats (some "professional" and some trial mechs). Combined with an unfavorable map/ position there is little one can do (i play heavy mechs).

But most of the time it's avoidable and not that bad... unless you end up at the wrong end of a lance's barrels in open terrain

I dont have AMS on my Cat anymore in favor of other stuff

Edited by X3 DIES IRAE, 24 February 2014 - 07:49 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

DaZur, on 24 February 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

True... But in fairness, that's the "perfect storm" scenario.

so it's ok handing free kills to some players and not others because sheet happens. right?

i don't believe in free kills or gratuitous deaths.

the teamplay suggestion is all fine and good until you drop solo

[Joseph Mallan]

Mazzyplz, on 24 February 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

so it's ok handing free kills to some players and not others because sheet happens. right?

i don't believe in free kills or gratuitous deaths.

the teamplay suggestion is all fine and good until you drop solo

And then as a Solo player I remind myself it is a team game and hit launch again.

[Mazzyplz]

teamplay is up to you in solo play sure.
but who's gonna force others to play along? you will be hitting the launch button a few times until you see it done.

i'm not complaining, i know 1/12 of the match is on my shoulders only, even with good balance there would be bad plays and stomps.

but that doesn't mean we should just stop trying to balance the weight classes, like i said in previous page, look at all the inherent benefits to light mechs, not only the obvious like speed, but unintended ones like botched hitboxes

[Rhent]

Haha, a fast medium complaining about LRM boats, that is so rich. I play fast mediums and I actively hunt out and destroy LRM boats. Why?
1. To do a LRM 60+ you have to sport an XL engine, you are still slow and you might have room for 4 ML and limited heat seats.
2. The slowness of a LRM60+ means it will be in the back of the heard and are prime prey for a free back attack before they can turn around and engage you with 3 blasts of their ML before they overheat.

[Mazzyplz]

these whole LRM debate rests solely on that. light mechs are the ones actually raining death upon you, the guys who press the button to launch are just puppets who can't even do the work of aiming it. such a game mechanic should be retought a little bit just my 2 cents

[wanderer]

So basically, a lone Stalker getting spotted and rained on is being treated unfairly.

Where the heck is -it's- support? Why did it's team leave it out in the middle of nowhere? Why is it plodding along in the open?

Heck, I've -been- that trial Stalker. I put my back to the canyon wall and chainfired my lasers till I'd burned the leg armor off mostly on that Spider and he skedaddled. LRMs can't hit you like that, and I listened to the support firing at me for a minute straight. 0 damage from LRMs, the only stuff I got hit with was lasers from the scout, but BOY did that wall tank hits like a champ. And then I caught the little ECM humper with 60 missiles, blew a leg off,and stomped him some more until the rest blew up, cause TAG breaks ECM, + Artemis straight shot at 300m = boom. He should have jumped over my head and out, but he tried to zip down the canyon instead- and that's part of why not knowing how LRMs work make you a target.

But frankly, a lone, slow assault is a big fat target. If your team leaves you exposed...you're lucky to live. If it'd been four lights, I'd have been torn to shreds in seconds, instead of one spotter + 3 LRM carriers (at least).

If you rage about LRMs, learn to use them. After that, you'll realize what kind of magic unicorn powers it takes for the rain to come down that hard on your head.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

DaZur, on 24 February 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

In fairness Nick, can you imagine the light pilot rage threads if mech speed, LRM speed / trajectory, AMS and ECM did not provide some mitigating aspects?

That said, none of those are admittance that LRMs "suck", only that they have operational envelopes that lights can take advantage of and that both ECM and AMS are semi-hard counters.

IMHO "Working as intended".

Whole system needs a rework. It's bad.

And it starts with ECM not incorporating 3 or 4 other systems and giving it abilities it never had.

And I'm sorry, IF a light mech is out in the open, and IF you get a lock on it and hold it through the flight of the missiles. It should hurt the light.

Right now it just doesn't.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mazzyplz, on 24 February 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

teamplay is up to you in solo play sure.
but who's gonna force others to play along? you will be hitting the launch button a few times until you see it done.

i'm not complaining, i know 1/12 of the match is on my shoulders only, even with good balance there would be bad plays and stomps.

but that doesn't mean we should just stop trying to balance the weight classes, like i said in previous page, look at all the inherent benefits to light mechs, not only the obvious like speed, but unintended ones like botched hitboxes

Team play in PUGs is more following... That guy And aiding him kill bad guys. Unless someone takes command serious.

[Mazzyplz]

wanderer, on 24 February 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

So basically, a lone Stalker getting spotted and rained on is being treated unfairly.

Where the heck is -it's- support? Why did it's team leave it out in the middle of nowhere? Why is it plodding along in the open?

But frankly, a lone, slow assault is a big fat target. If your team leaves you exposed...you're lucky to live. If it'd been four lights, I'd have been torn to shreds in seconds, instead of one spotter + 3 LRM carriers (at least).

it's support is gone because they're pugs. they left him out in the middle of a valley in canyon network because he is the slowest mech and the enemy came behind their last lance.

i don't see what's far fetched about it, happens every few matches to some poor soul.

a lone assault mech is an easy target for a light, but why is the assault mech relegated to shooting just heavies and assaults, why must you have an incredibly good shot to be able to down a light mech, it seems like that shouldn't be.

if it is really intended for players to rely on different random uncommunicative and often uncooperative strangers every match so their back won't blow up immediately then that's just stupid. who comes up with game design like that? it's almost set up to fail

the downsides to heavier mechs seem a lot more than the ones on light mechs

and say what you want about 12v12 or playin with your 3 friends. what i am talking about is solo and casual gameplay balance - if the game offers the possibility for players to drop solo then don't punish them for doing so, maybe 12v12 should have different mechanics, who knows.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 24 February 2014 - 08:17 AM.

[wanderer]

Exactly. The Stalker was teamed up on.

Period. It was left to die.

And yes, you just realized why PUGs are inferior. They're playing a game where teamwork is the biggest force multiplier...without any.

As for killing lights in an assault? Get to whatever you can put your back against. Keep a steady rate of fire. If you're a Stalker, pack some Streaks or enough smaller beam weapons that you just keep up a constant stream of fire. Assault pilots that try t spin with a light get hosed.

You're a bear. He's a bear dog. Learn how to swat lights. And if you're building an assault without answering "how do I kill lights?", you're doing it wrong.

[Mazzyplz]

thats perfect when srm actually was good at killing lights, but they got the nerf bat and then PGI actually ROLLED BACK HSR.
so to answer your question briefly, i had a perfect way to deal with them in my favorite mech, and they nerfed it 3 or 4 times in a row. it's still decent to kill assault mechs but they just not register at all with the light mech hitboxes

[Charons Little Helper]

Mazzyplz, on 24 February 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

and now with narc even more mobile mechs will get tracked around corners by lrm. lights are trolling now more than ever with narc, bap and tag...

Wait - lights using electronic warfare to scout & spot instead of just being baby combat mechs is 'trolling'? I thought that was called 'tactics' and the ever asked for 'role warfare'.

Edit: spelling

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 24 February 2014 - 10:15 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Charons Little Helper, on 24 February 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Wait - lights using electronic warfare to scount & spot instead of just being baby combat mechs is 'trolling'? I thought that was called 'tactics' and the ever asked for 'role warfare'.

Wait...someone actually uses NARC right now? For srs?

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 24 February 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Exactly. The Stalker was teamed up on. Period. It was left to die. And yes, you just realized why PUGs are inferior. They're playing a game where teamwork is the biggest force multiplier...without any. As for killing lights in an assault? Get to whatever you can put your back against. Keep a steady rate of fire. If you're a Stalker, pack some Streaks or enough smaller beam weapons that you just keep up a constant stream of fire. Assault pilots that try t spin with a light get hosed. You're a bear. He's a bear dog. Learn how to swat lights. And if you're building an assault without answering "how do I kill lights?", you're doing it wrong.

My best defense against lights was always calling Banichi! He is a Lawman, who knows how to rack up kills by staying close to the assaults and scrapping off the fast attackers!

[Mazzyplz]

Charons Little Helper, on 24 February 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Wait - lights using electronic warfare to scount & spot instead of just being baby combat mechs is 'trolling'? I thought that was called 'tactics' and the ever asked for 'role warfare'.

no you obviously missed the whole point there.

the whole point is besides the role warfare they're doing which is all fine and good, they're too hard to hit and can pack artillery modules that mostly only affect the slowest and biggest mechs, and are tiny and fast and pack decent alphas... and some even have ecm and others JJ

it's the deliberate combination and exploiting of all those features by some pilots that i would consider trolling, yes. trolling - keep their role but give us HSR. so they can be shot again. why was the HSR rolled back????

give us HSR so they can be shot and make a module that hits lighter mechs because artillery really doesn't work on em. it's a tool that every mech packs now and it only affects the heavy and assault class who have a tougher time getting out of the way.

these things lately have tipped the balance in favor of light mechs, when in the past, in more balanced times IMO, their benefits didn't pile on as much as they do right now with the HSR missing and the arty on top of that, as those things changed the light class should change

Edited by Mazzyplz, 24 February 2014 - 08:43 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mazzyplz, on 24 February 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

no you obviously missed the whole point there.

the whole point is besides the role warfare they're doing which is all fine and good, they're too hard to hit and can pack artillery modules that mostly only affect the slowest and biggest mechs, and are tiny and fast and pack decent alphas... and some even have ecm and others JJ

it's the deliberate combination and exploiting of all those features by some pilots that i would consider trolling, yes. trolling - keep their role but give us HSR. so they can be shot again. why was the HSR rolled back????

So again they are filling their roll as a harasser/raider and with Arty Modules, providing spotter service for off board fire support.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 24 February 2014 - 08:43 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

yea and that's too much. HSR for missiles and lasers, and arty changes now