60 replies to this topic

[SweetJackal]

My Hand Actuators are locked in sequence 00100 so hard right now, PGI has no idea. This is entirely about their 'plan' to release Clans Mechs one month at a time.

To be simple and frank, this doesn't work. This isn't healthy for the game. This is -nothing- like Project Phoenix in terms of design and you cannot use that design to plan for Clan Mechs.

In all honesty, Project Phoenix could have been 12 mechs that released one mech per month without problem. This would have just been gating mechs behind a paywall temporarily. Unless a mech was so flat out broken to the point that it used an infinitely better formula for it's hitboxes to the point that the CT couldn't be cored then it would dodge the Paying For An Advantage Situation that fosters claims of Pay2Win.

Why are Clan Mechs different?

Clan Technology is introducing entirely new build mechanics. When you put in Clan Mechs you are putting in equipment that can only be used on Clan Mechs. You are putting in brand new mechanics that only apply to the Clans.

As much as I might say that the Hero System flirts with (being) P2W due to locking builds behind a paywall (but isn't yet) the problems or advantages created by more optimal builds is minimal. When the Ilya was the P2W Mech during the UAC/5 Apocalypse it was only that by a Medium Laser. That's still an edge over every other mech able to abuse the 3 UAC/5 imbalance at the time, just a very slim one and no where near the tipping point that the 3 UAC/5 build vs anything else was at the time.

This all gets thrown completely out the window when you've suddenly locked weapons and equipment behind this Gated Paywall.

Forcing free players to wait to get the Phoenix Mechs is fine since you can use any weapon system in the Phoenix Package on any other mech.

Forcing free players to wait to get the Clan Mechs after the buyers have gotten theirs isn't "okay." This means that people that are paying money are getting early access to weapons like the UAC/20 where people that aren't coughing up the dough aren't allowed access to these weapons and will have to fight players using this weapons.

That is creating a situation where those that have bought into the Clan Package are getting an advantage over the players that haven't until the C-Bill versions of Clan Mechs heavy enough to mount these exceedingly heavy weapons are released. It's creating a window where "Pay To Win" will be a very real thing.

This situation exists because of "No Mixed Tech" and PGI's current release plan for the Clan Collections. This problem is even further compounded by murmurs among PGI staff that they will end up going Lance VS Star, which means that Clan Side of matches will be practically limited only to Clan Collection Buyers, segregating the player base and possibly making the game worse for those that have invested into it. There is the very real fear that those that bought into the Clan Collection won't be able to use their mechs in matches, which will result in a large backlash and hemorrhage high grade premium players.

Alright, now I've laid the foundation of the problem. Solutions?

First and simplest is to change the release plan to drop 4 Clan Mechs in C-Bill versions when the Clan Collections are injected into the buyers accounts. One of each class. This means that Free Players can use C-bills to get access to the tech even if they are not getting iconic mechs like the Timberwolf. Dodges the bullet entirely and allows "No Mixed Tech" to remain firm and it doesn't turn one side of Clan vs IS into a ghost town.

Second option I see is far more complicated. Allowing and designing for Mixed Tech.

Designing for Mixed Tech requires balancing the in game effects and usage of Clan Tech against IS Tech as one separate entity in a vacuum. This also means you have to balance the unique mechanics behind Clan Mech Customization against IS Mech Customization independently.

For Mixed Tech to work you would have to design the system so that a Clan Mech using IS weapons would be just as favorable as an IS Mech using Clan Weapons.

That is incredibly hard. The good thing is that it dodges the scenario described above, the bad thing is that it turns "Being Clan" into little more than "Being Davion."

Any thoughts to add to this? I'm hoping to get thoughts and opinions on this, start some discussion on what "YOU!" want to happen when the Clan Collection hits Live and how "YOU!" feel it will impact the game. Right now, with the information that has been provided I think PGI is on course to crash and burn by the Clans.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

If you want to play Clans, buy an Uller when it comes out. If you don't want an Uller and don't want to wait, grab the specific a la carte option for what you do want to drive. If you want multiples and want them now, then buy a combo pack of some kind.

MWO is free to play, which means pay for convenience. Early access is a convenience issue.

[Craig Steele]

If the game is balanced as they envisage it will be, there is no need for any player to 'rush' toward Clan tech.

On that basis alone its hard to see why they would change their existing commercial practice.

[Durant Carlyle]

I feel that you're trying to turn a mole hill into a mountain.

There will be no in-game limitation of Clan-only 'Mechs in Clan vs. I.S. matches.

The way Clan OmniMechs are set up, they are at a real disadvantage -- especially since they can't change engines. Their weapons should be superior to make up for that, but the devs have already said they are going to nerf Clan weapons into the ground so they are equal to (but different from) I.S. weapons. You will likely see a lot of Clan units fielding large numbers of I.S. 'Mechs because of that.

The usage of Clan 'Mechs will be a role-playing issue, just like the faction units using non-faction BattleMechs now.

Edited by Durant Carlyle, 23 February 2014 - 12:59 PM.

[Josef Nader]

You talk like free players are totally locked out of Clan tech for months. I'm sorry you aren't a fan of the Kit Fox. The Nova will be out a month afterwords. Meanwhile, less entitled free clan players will be zipping around in their Kit Foxes and kicking the free birth scum right in their pelvic joint.

Don't want to play the Kit Fox? You miss out on Clan Tech for a month. Paying players will fill out the teams with their heavier clan mechs while free players are locked into smaller chassis for a few months. Don't like the idea of playing a light or medium? Drop cash or stick with the Inner Sphere. End of story.

[Bront]

I don't think they've said anything about when the new clan mechs will be released for cbills. Personally, I expect them to release at least 2 a month, if not more (or maybe release 4 the first month, and one a month afterwards) just to get them out there in time for the start of CW (happening supposedly a few months after the clan pack is released. Untill they do, the early access paywall arguement is speculative on how early it will be.

[Durant Carlyle]

They did mention the release schedule in the latest NGNG Podcast. One per month. Plus, one I.S. 'Mech per month during the same time period. So yeah, two 'Mechs per month -- one I.S., one Clan.

[GalaxyBluestar]

but but that's a whole month of P2W mayhem ahhhhhh!

actually no, not in the slightest, clans are being nerfed hard and the only flavour you'll see amongest the IS feileding their C-bill clan mechs is vanilla vs vanilla, you're not missing out on anything.

plus PGI could easily add a clan trial mech que so that the "clan teams" aren't all "P2W" OP killers.

[Alex Warden]

Josef Nader, on 23 February 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

You talk like free players are totally locked out of Clan tech for months. I'm sorry you aren't a fan of the Kit Fox. The Nova will be out a month afterwords. Meanwhile, less entitled free clan players will be zipping around in their Kit Foxes and kicking the free birth scum right in their pelvic joint.

Don't want to play the Kit Fox? You miss out on Clan Tech for a month. Paying players will fill out the teams with their heavier clan mechs while free players are locked into smaller chassis for a few months. Don't like the idea of playing a light or medium? Drop cash or stick with the Inner Sphere. End of story.

nova and kitfox aren´t those mechs which will be able to carry 2XUAC20 + 2X LB20x and the like... Uller and such (suggested as "buy that one if you think you´ll need a clanmech" ) are not the ones i personally am concerned about (as especially those mechs are those which suffer from fixed engine issues) , it´s those omnis that wield the brutal weapons and in masses (which also happen to be mostly mechs with decent engines and armor values)... uac´s ssrms, clan ppc´s etc,etc. ... all of whitch are available in higher tiers of the packages... it HAS a bad taste from what i can see currently

and the point stands that you HAVE to buy at least a clan mech a´la carte to get your hands on (and properly use) those weapons and equipments for several months ... it IS an issue... even if subtile, it might feel like "force2pay" for many people...

IF i can stand head to head with them in my IS mechs, okay with me... but i heavily doubt it

Edited by Alex Warden, 23 February 2014 - 10:47 PM.

[SweetJackal]

Josef Nader, on 23 February 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

You talk like free players are totally locked out of Clan tech for months. I'm sorry you aren't a fan of the Kit Fox. The Nova will be out a month afterwords. Meanwhile, less entitled free clan players will be zipping around in their Kit Foxes and kicking the free birth scum right in their pelvic joint.

Don't want to play the Kit Fox? You miss out on Clan Tech for a month. Paying players will fill out the teams with their heavier clan mechs while free players are locked into smaller chassis for a few months. Don't like the idea of playing a light or medium? Drop cash or stick with the Inner Sphere. End of story.

My problem is larger caliber Clan ACs only being available in mechs that are going to be gated away from the free player base for months. You know, the Clan version of the very thing that is constantly complained about being the center of every meta build?

I don't have a problem with UAC/40 Heavy/Assault Clan Mechs being more "BOOM" than the "BOOMJAGER" due to current UAC mechanics. I do have a problem when such "cheese" is locked behind a paywall for a period of time.

GalaxyBluestar, on 23 February 2014 - 10:24 PM, said:

but but that's a whole month of P2W mayhem ahhhhhh!

actually no, not in the slightest, clans are being nerfed hard and the only flavour you'll see amongest the IS feileding their C-bill clan mechs is vanilla vs vanilla, you're not missing out on anything.

plus PGI could easily add a clan trial mech que so that the "clan teams" aren't all "P2W" OP killers.

Not a lick has been said about Clan ACs, Ghost heat is ineffective at preventing AC boating and the fixed chassis junk for the Omnimech system only neuters some mechs, like any clan Light. Most Medium/Heavy/Assault Mechs in the Clan List fit reasonable sized XLs that won't die from a single lost torso. Armor values are no longer fixed, though unknown if they will be able to be boosted to Max Customization Values like IS mech.

Nerfed from the Clans of BT? I'd hope so, otherwise you'd be shooting yourself in the foot is you continued to play an IS mech. All of this is written to the assumption of "Different but Equal" as the ability to have different strengths and weaknesses as a paying player compared to a free player is an edge.

But you added a 4th option here that I overlooked entirely! They could make the Clan Trial Mechs- wait. Completely fixed loadouts when my complaint is the "possible abusive cheese builds" that come from clan tech being locked behind a paywall until heavier, non-missile/laser primary Clan Mechs are released?

Edited by SuckyJack, 23 February 2014 - 10:44 PM.

[Sephlock]

[SweetJackal]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 22 February 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

If you want to play Clans, buy an Uller when it comes out. If you don't want an Uller and don't want to wait, grab the specific a la carte option for what you do want to drive. If you want multiples and want them now, then buy a combo pack of some kind.

MWO is free to play, which means pay for convenience. Early access is a convenience issue.

I'm just going to say this now. I couldn't care two flips about people getting early and exclusive access to their precious Timberwolves. My concern is about Clan ACs being locked behind a paywall for months when AC's dominate the Meta.

I care jack about the Meta Builds, I play what is fun and works for me which is often Laser Builds or LBX Builds. But Meta-Cookie Cutters are effective for a reason and it is a balance concern when said Clan versions are locked behind a paywall for months.

Edited by SuckyJack, 23 February 2014 - 10:49 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

SuckyJack, on 23 February 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

I'm just going to say this now. I couldn't care two flips about people getting early and exclusive access to their precious Timberwolves. My concern is about Clan ACs being locked behind a paywall for months when AC's dominate the Meta.

I care jack about the Meta Builds, I play what is fun and works for me which is often Laser Builds or LBX Builds. But Meta-Cookie Cutters are effective for a reason and it is a balance concern when said Clan versions are locked behind a paywall for months.

Ullers have several ballistic-heavy configurations, so I don't think you'll have anything to worry about there.

[Craig Steele]

SuckyJack, on 23 February 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

I'm just going to say this now. I couldn't care two flips about people getting early and exclusive access to their precious Timberwolves. My concern is about Clan ACs being locked behind a paywall for months when AC's dominate the Meta.

I care jack about the Meta Builds, I play what is fun and works for me which is often Laser Builds or LBX Builds. But Meta-Cookie Cutters are effective for a reason and it is a balance concern when said Clan versions are locked behind a paywall for months.

This is a bit of jumping the gun isn't it.

Again, assuming the tech is balanced as PGI have repeatedly stated is their intent, then UAC20's will have some mechanism to ensure they do not 'dominate' and create the type of scenario you are predicting.

So lets not tell everyone the sky is falling until we have more information on what Clan weapons look like hmmm?

They may get it wrong, they may get it right. But doom and gloom is hardly a great place to start when we don't have all the details.

[RavensScar]

SuckyJack, on 23 February 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

My problem is larger caliber Clan ACs only being available in mechs that are going to be gated away from the free player base for months. You know, the Clan version of the very thing that is constantly complained about being the center of every meta build?

I don't have a problem with UAC/40 Heavy/Assault Clan Mechs being more "BOOM" than the "BOOMJAGER" due to current UAC mechanics. I do have a problem when such "cheese" is locked behind a paywall for a period of time.

[snip...]

Just to point out - if they go with the TT configuration for FF and end slots, it's likely that the ONLY clan mech capable of running 2x UAC20 will be the Dire Wolf. I think every other clan mech that's been announced will probably be capable of carrying one of them, but only the Dire Wolf is likely to be able to carry 2.

[Khobai]

They need to release four clan mechs at once. That way we get balanced ISvsClan matches. Otherwise all the free players will be in ullers which isnt going to be good, especially if the uller is dead on arrival because its stuck going 97kph.

[Craig Steele]

Khobai, on 24 February 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:

They need to release four clan mechs at once. That way we get balanced ISvsClan matches. Otherwise all the free players will be in ullers which isnt going to be good, especially if the uller is dead on arrival because its stuck going 97kph.

If they do then a lot will not buy the next pack, they'll just wait 30 days and buy them with C-Bills for nothing.

The premium time and paints jobs are all well and nice, but what people are really paying for is early access. You take that away and you take away your future sales.

PGI have said repeatedly they want to balance the techs so there is no reason for a change to the release program on that basis.

All the free players will still have access to all their IS mechs, its not going to change anything on that front.

[Khobai]

Quote

If they do then a lot will not buy the next pack, they'll just wait 30 days and buy them with C-Bills for nothing.

Im already not buying a pack. Because they botched the clan packs so bad. So what difference does that make to me?

So of course I think they should release the first four clan mechs simultaneously.

[Craig Steele]

Khobai, on 24 February 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

Im already not buying a pack. Because they botched the clan packs so bad. So what difference does that make to me?

So of course I think they should release the first four clan mechs simultaneously.

Oh, well then yes.

Of course PGI should change their marketing system on its head to suit your specific request around your specific needs. They absolutely should put at risk future revenue from those customer's not yet disenchanted with the product so that you who has already voted with your wallet should have access to the mechs you won't pay for.

Hard to argue with you now

[Khobai]

Quote

Of course PGI should change their marketing system on its head to suit your specific request around your specific needs. They absolutely should put at risk future revenue from those customer's not yet disenchanted with the product so that you who has already voted with your wallet should have access to the mechs you won't pay for.

I would hope everyone is disenchanted with the product by now.