383 replies to this topic

[Charons Little Helper]

NRP, on 26 February 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

Meh, there's already too much LRM spam going on right now. I don't think they need a speed increase, or any other kind of buff for that matter.

There's only been the recent increase due to the trial stalker being an LRM boat.

[SirLANsalot]

SuckyJack, on 26 February 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

The problem with LRMs is how MWO has handled Range Compression.

In the TT LRMs were a means to provide high amounts of damage at a range that is nearly unmatched. The only weapon that beat their range was the AC/2 which has a low Damage/Tonnage ratio. To be marked against this strength LRMs spread their damage, have a high cost in Tonnage and Crits as well as require ammo.

MWO comes along and doubles the max range of all Energy Weapons and triples the max range of all Ballistic Weapons. These weapons get linear damage decay past their TT Max Range to deal 0 damage past their MWO Max Range. The TT Max Range got renamed Optimum Range.

LRM Max Range has remained unchanged.

Where does this leave the game? We have long range engagements with ERLLs, ERPPCs, AC/5s and AC/2s that are tagging damage out at or beyond LRM range. LRM Boats, mechs that specialized themselves to unload their payload at extreme ranges and used that range as a safety net are instead forced into the danger zone where high damage direct fire weapons can actually hit them.

Extreme Range Sniping becomes a problem due to the nature of pin point damage, film grain is used to obscure mechs at longer range, fluffed as the lower resolution on the screens that display the world around us and make the game look a lot uglier.

What can be done? Many things. Ballistics can get only Double their max TT Range (or Optimum Range) with Linear Decay and Energy could get non-linear decay to make the weapons more different. Or you could double the LRM range and apply a 1% missile death rate per 2% past optimum range they travel so only 50% of the volley will land. Gives larger launchers like the LRM20 a purpose.

Then again I've found out time and time again that my views are "On An Island" and to be dismissed without consideration. So take it all with a grain of salt.

.....the only Liao guy I am ever going to agree with but you are 100% spot on.

Issue with LRMs not being overly used, and quite frankly, UNDERUSED, is because for that exact reason. LRMs are supposed to be KINGS OF LONG RANGE (its kinda in there name...DUH). Out ranged only by the AC2, and even then, only just barely. Whoever did come up with the extra ranges for all the weapons......was an LRM hater.


Quite simply, double LRM range, speed is actually fine where its at if you increased there range.

"oh what about the small maps?"
What about them? Gauss/AC2/ERPPC/ERLL all can hit anything you can see on River City, and LRM range is only just BARELY enough to cover that small map. Plus lets not forget....its a city, very little open ground there.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Josef Nader, on 26 February 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

I've explained it 3-4 times already, each time using progressively smaller words.

LRMs on their own are less powerful than direct fire because they scatter damage. They are still useful, because you don't have to be looking at the guy to shoot him.
LRMs that have been buffed by their supporting items are more powerful than direct fire, as they focus damage much better than their unmodified counterparts, have long range, and allow you to damage the other guy without looking at him.
If the equation ended here, LRMs would be incredibly powerful, and they would completely dominate the metagame. Being painted with a TAG or hit with a NARC would be a death sentence.
So, introduce counter LRM tools.
A single AMS will significantly reduce the damage from a single LRM launcher. A single ECM provides a protective bubble that must be overcome with counter equipment.
An LRM boat can overwhelm the single AMS through sheer volume of fire, and the 1.5 ton ECM is overcome by a 1 ton TAG laser.
Mass amounts of AMS can counter mass amounts of LRMs, but only if the mechs with AMS can stay grouped. LRMs are still balanced, as the threat of being LRMed to death is forcing the team to behave a certain way, and this makes them vulnerable to things like artillery/airstrikes, pop tarts, and being flanked.
LRMs can still do their job if the AMS bubble can be broken up, and they can once again melt a target under sheer volume of fire.

LRMs are not unbalanced in any of those situations. They are a major influence on the strategies in-game, and people are forced to build a certain way and behave a certain way because of their presence. LRMs are used for suppression more than anything. They restrict enemy movements and force them to behave in a certain way.

Still confused?

And that right there is why LRM's are so rare in games folks. ^^^^^^

It is totally random as to whether they are face meltingly good, or bb gun terribad.

But because both situations exist, people like Sandpit and Josef declare them balanced.

And of course LRM's are the only weapon that have to deal with all this crap, while PPC's and AC's just aim, fire, and defensively manuver.

No wonder they are the meta.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 26 February 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[topgun505]

You opened the door.

Bear in mind though that in TT not all missiles in a volley would hit their intended target. Even if it was a perfect shot with a target out in the open and not moving a majority of a volley could still miss even though the rack 'hit' the target.

In MWO, assuming terrain doesnt get in the way, the majority of volley usually hits a target unless it is running blazingly fast. So you have to take those differences into consideration as well.

Willard Phule, on 26 February 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

AMS - Anti Missile System. Not "Impervious Missile Shield."

Look...I know I constantly bring up TT rules, but in this case, it's relevant. In TT Battletech, the AMS system does not destroy an entire flight of incoming missiles. In fact, each AMS can only be used against one launcher's flight per turn. That means, if you have two AMS, you can't use both on a group of missiles fired from an LRM20. Just one.

People keep thinking that AMS should be some sort of impervious missile shield...it's not. It's supposed to lessen size of the cloud that's hitting you, not eliminate it.

This isn't a balancing issue. If you speed up the LRMs and they're killing you more often......then stick with your group where multiple AMS will act together to lessen the cloud. Stop being a Rambo and wandering off on your own. It's just that simple.

[SweetJackal]

Lyoto Machida, on 26 February 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

No point in 2x or 3x LRM range unless a 2nd/3rd stage boost in speed is implemented. If LRMs arent really effective at 900m, there's no point in having them be able to fire out to 2700m...

I would be for making the travel time fixed and the travel speed variable on this. LRMs are meant to be a long range weapon. So that target at 400m would take the same time to hit as a 900m target on an LRM20 without Artemis.

Artemis, Narc, TAG could allow for different firing arcs and a shorter time a result.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

CyclonerM, on 26 February 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

I totally agree to the need of some love for LRMs, but actually i think the problem is ECM preventing target lock.

For me, that's one thing I dislike about using LRMs, is that they are so slow that we require a Lock to hit most of the time.

It's rare to get that chance where you have LOS on a stationary target and can't lock where you can simply dumb-fire LRMs at the target. Trying to do that with a moving target though just wastes ammo from my experience most of the time.

But the concern is with how they hit on a target and then being able to boat them that mucks everything up.

[Josef Nader]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 26 February 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

And that right there is why LRM's are so rare in games folks. ^^^^^^

It is totally random as to whether they are face meltingly good, or bb gun terribad.

But because both situations exist, people like Sandpit and Josef declare them balanced.

And of course LRM's are the only weapon that have to deal with all this crap, while PPC's and AC's just aim, fire, and defensively manuver.

No wonder they are the meta.

LRMs are a team-oriented support weapons. PPCs and ACs are not. If you're alone, PPCs and ACs are going to be better, as their success is not dependent on your teammates success.

In coordinated groups with a dedicated LRM boat, the LRM boat usually comes out of the match topping the scoreboard. They're obscenely powerful if your teammates are taking advantage of you. If they aren't, you aren't that useful. It's like any support class in any game ever.

A lone Medic in TF2 isn't very powerful, but if his team takes advantage of him, protects him, and allows him to use his job he will be the single most important player on that team. LRMs are that role relegated to a weapon.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Josef Nader, on 26 February 2014 - 01:51 PM, said:

LRMs are a team-oriented support weapons. PPCs and ACs are not. If you're alone, PPCs and ACs are going to be better, as their success is not dependent on your teammates success.

In coordinated groups with a dedicated LRM boat, the LRM boat usually comes out of the match topping the scoreboard. They're obscenely powerful if your teammates are taking advantage of you. If they aren't, you aren't that useful. It's like any support class in any game ever.

A lone Medic in TF2 isn't very powerful, but if his team takes advantage of him, protects him, and allows him to use his job he will be the single most important player on that team. LRMs are that role relegated to a weapon.

lollll team oriented support weapons. And then compares them to medics in TF2. Jesus.

[Josef Nader]

Mmm, nothing like homogenous weapons with no differentiated characteristics or interesting mechanics. Everything is better when you can just click the mans to make them fall down.

[Artgathan]

topgun505, on 26 February 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

You opened the door.

Bear in mind though that in TT not all missiles in a volley would hit their intended target. Even if it was a perfect shot with a target out in the open and not moving a majority of a volley could still miss even though the rack 'hit' the target.

In MWO, assuming terrain doesnt get in the way, the majority of volley usually hits a target unless it is running blazingly fast. So you have to take those differences into consideration as well.

This - if I remember correctly roughly 50% of the missiles from a given shot would hit (on average).

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

AMS is still too weak against SRMs and SSRMs, so if speeding up LRMs makes AMS weak against them too, then why not buff AMS?

Double the damage a single AMS does. BAM, now each AMS kills missiles twice as fast.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Josef Nader, on 26 February 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

Mmm, nothing like homogenous weapons with no differentiated characteristics or interesting mechanics. Everything is better when you can just click the mans to make them fall down.

Here is a question, why do we have team-oriented weapons, when PGI's goal has been to drive teams out of the game?

So we have what? 10% of players that group? So let say 20% of them use LRM's? So what? 5 players use LRM's properly?

What? LOL

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 26 February 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

AMS is still too weak against SRMs

WTF? Seriously? You want to further nerf SRM's?

What are you on?

[SweetJackal]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 26 February 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Here is a question, why do we have team-oriented weapons, when PGI's goal has been to drive teams out of the game?

So we have what? 10% of players that group? So let say 20% of them use LRM's? So what? 5 players use LRM's properly?

What? LOL



WTF? Seriously? You want to further nerf SRM's?

What are you on?

Actually, the question becomes: "Why make Team Weapons that are a liability to the team instead of Team Weapons that make your team better?"

Why is ECM strong? It's a solo piece of equipment that can empower your team.

Build weapons that become better with teamwork rather than weapons that cannot function without it. In the end, teamwork weapons promote teamwork and teamwork wins matches, but one way of doing it makes for a much better user experience.

[Tombstoner]

Artgathan, on 26 February 2014 - 02:00 PM, said:

This - if I remember correctly roughly 50% of the missiles from a given shot would hit (on average).

And is a significant buff from TT particularly for the LRM 5 since all the missiles hit the CT.
I think the only reason PGI hasn't gone to using the SSRM hit system for all LRM's is they have too much on there plate but it would also be a harsh nerf to LRM's. with good team play LRM's are deadly in pugs kinda meh due to the variability of the PUG you drop with. Team play is a force multiplier.

you need to in fact balance for both but both can be balanced at the same time ,you need 2 sets of values: PUG vs.12 man

[SirLANsalot]

hmm.


Then I guess my LRM boat Protector games last night were a fluke.
LRM20 and LRM10 twin LL and Tag with Artemis. 11tons of ammo. Was getting 200-300 damage a game when I hit with just LRMs, and some games was getting 400-600 when the LL were getting used along side the LRM bombardment. People have severely underestimated the power that is an LRM20 with Art and Tag.....turns people mechs all kinds of colors.


Those games were just with TWO launchers....TWO.....not 3 or 4 that other, bigger, mechs have.......

[Josef Nader]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 26 February 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Here is a question, why do we have team-oriented weapons, when PGI's goal has been to drive teams out of the game?

So we have what? 10% of players that group? So let say 20% of them use LRM's? So what? 5 players use LRM's properly?

What? LOL

Uh, when has PGI ever minimized the value of the team? Last I checked, having a single guy crash out on your team is very nearly gg from the word go. Teamwork, even if it's as simple as all being in the same place and forcing the enemy to divide fire between everyone, is crucial to this game. Even the best player can't take on multiple opponents and come out on top except in the barest of circumstances. It's nearly impossible to be an army of one in this game.

Then you start throwing arbitrary percentages around and I kinda lose you after that, not that I ever understood where you were coming from.

[SirLANsalot]

Tombstoner, on 26 February 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

And is a significant buff from TT particularly for the LRM 5 since all the missiles hit the CT.
I think the only reason PGI hasn't gone to using the SSRM hit system for all LRM's is they have too much on there plate but it would also be a harsh nerf to LRM's. with good team play LRM's are deadly in pugs kinda meh due to the variability of the PUG you drop with. Team play is a force multiplier.

you need to in fact balance for both but both can be balanced at the same time ,you need 2 sets of values: PUG vs.12 man

LRMs target the same "bones" system that Streaks use. So yes, LRMs DO use the streak system and only if a mech is moving do missiles in a volly "miss".

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 26 February 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

WTF? Seriously? You want to further nerf SRM's?

What are you on?

I want AMS actually to work against SSRMs and SRMs. I also want SRMs to get some significant buffs (hit registration issues aside, they need a damage buff to 2.5/missile, they need a slightly more generous Ghost Heat allowance, they need 120 missiles per ton of ammo, and they need more of a rate of fire edge over non-brawling weapons, but that entails reducing overall rates of fire rather than buffing SRMs directly).

[Nicholas Carlyle]

SirLANsalot, on 26 February 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

hmm.


Then I guess my LRM boat Protector games last night were a fluke.
LRM20 and LRM10 twin LL and Tag with Artemis. 11tons of ammo. Was getting 200-300 damage a game when I hit with just LRMs, and some games was getting 400-600 when the LL were getting used along side the LRM bombardment. People have severely underestimated the power that is an LRM20 with Art and Tag.....turns people mechs all kinds of colors.


Those games were just with TWO launchers....TWO.....not 3 or 4 that other, bigger, mechs have.......

I have a Shadow Hawk, 2 LRM 5's, 2 LRM 10's, Tag and a Medium Laser.

No Artemis.

I scored 650 damage and 2 kills one game, then the next game, 10 assists and 550 some odd points, so you'd think I'd be like "YEAH LRM'S ARE GREAT".

Nope, because I pay attention to who I'm fighting. It was a lot of people who had no idea what they were doing. Standing out in the open. In crappy mechs. Charging in straight lines at me. Or just plain ignoring me while I chain fire destroyed them.

LRM's FEAST on terrible players.

They SUCK against good ones.

Josef Nader, on 26 February 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

Uh, when has PGI ever minimized the value of the team? Last I checked, having a single guy crash out on your team is very nearly gg from the word go. Teamwork, even if it's as simple as all being in the same place and forcing the enemy to divide fire between everyone, is crucial to this game. Even the best player can't take on multiple opponents and come out on top except in the barest of circumstances. It's nearly impossible to be an army of one in this game.

Then you start throwing arbitrary percentages around and I kinda lose you after that, not that I ever understood where you were coming from.

Hmm? So why have so many major groups left (including your own clan) and we are now down to a paltry 10-15% of the player base dropping in groups?

Seems like PGI must've had something to do with that.

They aren't arbitrary, they are not my numbers, have you listened to Bryan on the latest Podcast? This is THEIR numbers. Jesus.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 26 February 2014 - 02:15 PM.

[Charons Little Helper]

SirLANsalot, on 26 February 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

LRMs target the same "bones" system that Streaks use. So yes, LRMs DO use the streak system and only if a mech is moving do missiles in a volly "miss".

No - they don't.

(I'd actually prefer if they did - but they'd need significant damage & speed buffs to compensate.)