383 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Lyoto Machida, on 03 March 2014 - 03:54 PM, said:

Hence why LRMs take the most skill to use (and I'm not just referring to twitch skills).

They take the skill of the User, and the skill of the spotter. LRMs work best when working with a team.

[Joseph Mallan]

Abivard, on 02 March 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Oh, I missed the Part where ECM can now be mounted on any mech instead of AMS? tell me, how do you manage to do that?

Become very VERY close friends with the resident D-DC.

[wanderer]

Multiple ECMs tend to junk LRM fire in general, in any case. At that point, you're watching targeting solutions show up and fade out before you can get a lock, meaning most shots that aren't direct LOS with TAG are utterly wasted ones.

And yes, I am so gonna win that slugging match in my -2X vs. the other 'Phract over yonder with quad AC/5's.

Someone else with TAG? NARC?

YOU ARE FUNNY. I consider it a miracle if someone wastes a ton on TAG, and they're a funny farm candidate if they mounted NARC. Beagles? Sure, if you want to hump them at suicide range. PPC scrambles? By the time I lock and fire, the effect fades right around when my missiles clear the launcher.

Good ECM basically cancels LRMs completlely.

[Joseph Mallan]

It's the risk you take if you want to use Pure LRMs.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 March 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[wanderer]

So, tell me. Where's the risk in using pure AC's?

[Kommisar]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 March 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

It's the risk you take if you want to use Pure LRMs.

Exactly. And it is exactly why LRMs are in such a bad state. They are a high risk weapon given everything you need to make them work (extra equipment, solid teamwork) and the luck required for them to work efficiently (your random opponent). BUT, there is no pay off for risk. Even if the stars align, you are still less effective than direct fire weapons, with tonnage investment in one, possibly two or more, mechs to get that! Especially since you need to be inside about 500 meters and have clear LOS to get those efficiencies.

With the way the weapons are tuned right now, an AC20 works better at those ranges. For some unfathomable reason.

[DocBach]

what risk do I have to take to bring pure PPC/AC?

[Joseph Mallan]

DocBach, on 04 March 2014 - 06:31 AM, said:

what risk do I have to take to bring pure PPC/AC?

The other teams PPC/AC Mechs.

[DocBach]

But I run that risk with an LRM 'Mech, with the added risk of not being able to fire back, AT ALL?

[wanderer]

That's not a real risk- that's exactly as much risk as reward.

[3rdworld]

To me the problems with LRMs is making a single launcher a viable addition to any mech, without making the OP when massed.

[TygerLily]

I'd be okay with an increase in LRM missile speed (remember I'm on both ends of that!) It takes plenty of coordination to use them effectively and if you're trying to pug with an LRM boat, you better bring your own UAV, Tag, and JJ's to maintain locks. I think the system takes a bit more skill than some people want to admit...and if you're like, "Damn yo, that whole team has LRMS"...well, the more long range they do have, the more they don't have to brawl with.

Even with a speed increase I think it'd be easy enough to get in to cover...and if you're in the open (including vertically), that's really your own fault.

3rdworld, on 04 March 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

To me the problems with LRMs is making a single launcher a viable addition to any mech, without making the OP when massed.

I can get behind that...but I do think the more you decicate to boating, the less you have for defending yourself in a brawl.

Edited by TygerLily, 05 March 2014 - 04:00 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 04 March 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

To me the problems with LRMs is making a single launcher a viable addition to any mech, without making the OP when massed.

When I was driving a T-Bolt I used a single LRM15, It helped my Over all numbers and improved my Assists, but it was more of a harasser weapon...

[Sephlock]

wanderer, on 04 March 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

Multiple ECMs tend to junk LRM fire in general, in any case. At that point, you're watching targeting solutions show up and fade out before you can get a lock, meaning most shots that aren't direct LOS with TAG are utterly wasted ones.

Trying to get a good volley off is like trying to get a clear shot of Bigfoot riding the Loch Ness Monster. During a total eclipse. With an old style flash powder camera.

Quote

[color=#959595]PPC scrambles? By the time I lock and fire, the effect fades right around when my missiles clear the launcher.

And even if it didn't, you'd need the scramble effect to last a REAAALLLLLLY long time, + meet all the other critera for a successful missile launch + hit.

[wanderer]

Quote

To me the problems with LRMs is making a single launcher a viable addition to any mech, without making the OP when massed.

You take four AC/5's. I'll take four Artemis-IV LRM 15's and we can trade shots.

Bet who's dead first?

Massed LRMs aren't OP- they're simply enough missiles to compensate for the damage spread so they actually kill something vs. sand all the armor off. If you're being obliterated, generally it's 2-3 missile boats pummeling you at once.

If you had 2-3 'Mechs emptying AC's and Gauss into your chest at once, how long would you last?

[Joseph Mallan]

DocBach, on 04 March 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

But I run that risk with an LRM 'Mech, with the added risk of not being able to fire back, AT ALL?

Well if you know the risks, and you take the weapons anyway, Like myself, there is nobody to blame but ones self.

[3rdworld]

TygerLily, on 04 March 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

I can get behind that...but I do think the more you decicate to boating, the less you have for defending yourself in a brawl.

That is true. But tipping the pendulum to much to LRMs makes no one happy either.

Many mechs in BT lore carried like a single LRM 10 or something like that. I just want to see a reason why I would consider putting an LRM 10 on my highlander.

Right now, if you aren't really going full boar LRM mech, there is not much of a point to lrms.

Joseph Mallan, on 04 March 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

When I was driving a T-Bolt I used a single LRM15, It helped my Over all numbers and improved my Assists, but it was more of a harasser weapon...

When you say harasser, I read "waste of tonnage".

Edited by 3rdworld, 04 March 2014 - 06:53 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

3rdworld, on 04 March 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

That is true. But tipping the pendulum to much to LRMs makes no one happy either.

Many mechs in BT lore carried like a single LRM 10 or something like that. I just want to see a reason why I would consider putting an LRM 10 on my highlander.

Right now, if you aren't really going full boar LRM mech, there is not much of a point to lrms.



When you say harasser, I read "waste of tonnage".

Reading comprehension is a big problem around the world I see.

[Prezimonto]

wanderer, on 04 March 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

Multiple ECMs tend to junk LRM fire in general, in any case. At that point, you're watching targeting solutions show up and fade out before you can get a lock, meaning most shots that aren't direct LOS with TAG are utterly wasted ones.

And yes, I am so gonna win that slugging match in my -2X vs. the other 'Phract over yonder with quad AC/5's.

Someone else with TAG? NARC?

YOU ARE FUNNY. I consider it a miracle if someone wastes a ton on TAG, and they're a funny farm candidate if they mounted NARC. Beagles? Sure, if you want to hump them at suicide range. PPC scrambles? By the time I lock and fire, the effect fades right around when my missiles clear the launcher.

Good ECM basically cancels LRMs completlely.

I doubt it will happen, but if the changes to the NARC beacon that are coming they give it an ECM damping field or effect, I'd be lot more happy with the place of LRM's in pug matches.

Really, it's the fact that the weapon has a direct hard counter. Yes, I know there are lots of counters for ECM now... but only for the mech carrying ECM and often for durations too short to matter for LRMs. Nothing currently counters the ECM bubble on an enemy team except destroying the ECM unit. AMS is fine. ECM is just too easy to use (taking zero skill to put out a whole team covering hard counter).

[Mordin Ashe]

Narcs are nice but useless because to get the full advantage from them, you need to mount them first. Thats a lot of tonnage and hardpoints wasted for, what really? You may get the lock, but all other counters to LRMs remain in place, including incredible AMS-heavy environment. So yeah, a great thing to have for scouts in very competitive 12-play, but thats it. Still useless for PUGs because LRMs are so difficult to use for no real gain.