504 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Roadbeer, on 09 March 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

It's happened before, so he was either wrong then or wrong now...

Don't take the bait dude. I feel foolish for having done it. You're gonna need a bigger boat for this one

[Novakaine]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Don't take the bait dude. I feel foolish for having done it. You're gonna need a bigger boat for this one

Yeah I agree with Sandy.
Don't take the bait.
I am now content to watch rot from the inside.
Let's pull up some chairs and enjoy.

[Triordinant]

I seem to sense that my suggestion from over a year ago for a premade-free, PUG-only queue alongside an unrestricted one is suddenly more popular, at least in the forums...

[Sandpit]

Triordinant, on 09 March 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

I seem to sense that my suggestion from over a year ago for a premade-free, PUG-only queue alongside an unrestricted one is suddenly more popular, at least in the forums...

Not really. I, and many of the players I talk to, don't like the idea for a myriad of reasons, but if it's the only compromise they're willing to try then it is what it is.

I stated a lot of reasons I don't think it's a good idea. Smaller pool means new players in solos are still gonna get stomped. Higer Elo players will be matched up more often with lower Elo because of smaller pools, etc. just to rename a few. The group pool would do nicely but the solo queue where most of your new players are going to drop would be a horrible experience for them

[Triordinant]

Since 84% of the players drop solo, the PUG-only queue would have a big pool, not a small one.

[Galenit]

Triordinant, on 09 March 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

I seem to sense that my suggestion from over a year ago for a premade-free, PUG-only queue alongside an unrestricted one is suddenly more popular, at least in the forums...

Nah, just go on comstar, find some other pugs and play against 8 mans.
Grow you balls, l2p and get voip and you will overcome them or leave for playing hello kitty online.
No need for a solo pug queue, they are a tiny minority.

You remember that?

I dont know why premadeplayers cant go to comstat and fill their more the 4 friends with strangers and play against 12 mans? If this should have worked for 8 pugs against a 8 man premade, this should work for premades too ...

Edited by Galenit, 09 March 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Roadbeer]

Galenit, on 09 March 2014 - 10:24 AM, said:

I dont know why premadeplayers cant go to comstat and fill their more the 4 friends with strangers and play against 12 mans? If this should have worked for 8 pugs against a 8 man premade, this should work for premades too ...

Obviously you've never tried to put together/keep together a casual 12 man, and what a PITA it is.

"Ok, everyone ready up, we're going to launch"
"Player 5, ready up please"
"Player 5?"
3 minutes pass, Player 5 returns
"Sorry guys, I was out having a smoke"
"Ok, here we go..."
Match played, resolved in 8 minutes, return to social screen...
"Ok guys, ready up"
"Hey, this is player 7, I have to go, its midnight here"
"That's cool, I have to go into mechlab for a few while you find a replacement"
"I need to pee, brb"
Comb the LFG, small group bays for 10 minutes before finding a replacement
"Ok, we're full again, everyone ready up"
"Sorry guys, this is Player 2, my dog just ate my kids Star Wars figure"
10 more minutes combing the channels for a replacement
"Ok, here we go"
Match played, resolved in 12 minutes back to Social screen
" Hey guys, I'm out of here, this shit takes too long"
3 others agree and leave the group
"Ok, now we have to find 4"
"**** this, let's just play in groups of 4"

So you now have 20 minutes of play time and 25 minutes trying to get everyone to press the damn ready button. 2 drops in an hour, and I wonder why the solo population is so large?

Edited by Roadbeer, 09 March 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[Sandpit]

Triordinant, on 09 March 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Since 84% of the players drop solo, the PUG-only queue would have a big pool, not a small one.

That's the exact fallacy we've been discussing. That 84% is NOT 84% of the population.

I'll explain my reasoning again

when you look at the data and you break it down and you analyze it you find a few things. The actual population divide would be close to about 70-30 60-40 not 84-16. So if we go conservative and take the 70-30 example we can go through a few scenarios.

let's say 10,000 just for example purposes
that's 7000 solos
3000 groups
Now, you take 3000 minimum out of the solo bucket and that leaves 7000 in solo. After removing 30% of the population from the solo queue you now have far less players to pull from. So now MM has to reach out further to fill up games. That means that you'll have more matches where new and lower skilled players will face off against higher tier players.
You also have the ggclose type players who drop solo, and griefers, discos, etc. So new players are going to face that more often which is going to increase the frequency of roflstomps for some.

Then those players that drop solo and new players will begin to gravitate to the group queues dwindling the population in the solo queues even further which will again increase the frequency they run into roflstomps and such. Meanwhile the group queue will continue to grow. Players will get tired of the stomps and move to another queue where they don't happen as often. I also feel this would cause group numbers to grow.

Meanwhile Joe Derp who's a ggclose kinda guy loves it because he gets to continue on stomping and facing off against new players more often proving his "elite" KDR is "legit".

Smaller pools will not hurt the groups nearly as much. Smaller pools will, however, severely damage the solo queues in my opinion.

[Triordinant]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

That's the exact fallacy we've been discussing. That 84% is NOT 84% of the population.

I'll explain my reasoning again

when you look at the data and you break it down and you analyze it you find a few things. The actual population divide would be close to about 70-30 60-40 not 84-16. So if we go conservative and take the 70-30 example we can go through a few scenarios.

let's say 10,000 just for example purposes
that's 7000 solos
3000 groups
Now, you take 3000 minimum out of the solo bucket and that leaves 7000 in solo. After removing 30% of the population from the solo queue you now have far less players to pull from. So now MM has to reach out further to fill up games. That means that you'll have more matches where new and lower skilled players will face off against higher tier players.
You also have the ggclose type players who drop solo, and griefers, discos, etc. So new players are going to face that more often which is going to increase the frequency of roflstomps for some.

Then those players that drop solo and new players will begin to gravitate to the group queues dwindling the population in the solo queues even further which will again increase the frequency they run into roflstomps and such. Meanwhile the group queue will continue to grow. Players will get tired of the stomps and move to another queue where they don't happen as often. I also feel this would cause group numbers to grow.

Meanwhile Joe Derp who's a ggclose kinda guy loves it because he gets to continue on stomping and facing off against new players more often proving his "elite" KDR is "legit".

Smaller pools will not hurt the groups nearly as much. Smaller pools will, however, severely damage the solo queues in my opinion.

In my opinion, it's easier to beat Joe "ggclose" Derp or uncoordinated high Elo players than it is to beat an organized premade using voice comms who have been fighting together for months, so I'll gladly take my chances. Besides, chances are there will be higher-tiered players on both teams, not just one.

[Sandpit]

Triordinant, on 09 March 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

In my opinion, it's easier to beat Joe "ggclose" Derp or uncoordinated high Elo players than it is to beat an organized premade using voice comms who have been fighting together for months, so I'll gladly take my chances. Besides, chances are there will be higher-tiered players on both teams, not just one.

The "new" launch module is teh exact same system you have now. It changes nothing except the new "rule of 3" with team composition. I don't understand how anyone can think this will change anything. You'll be launching in the exact same format that you are now. You'll have premades, you'll have Elo, you'll have the MM system. The only difference is you're going to have less players to pull from because they're segregating more of the population.

There are high tiered teams on both sides when I play now. It is VERY rare that I see a premade on one side only. I've never seen a match (although I'm sure it has happened but the fact that I can't recall it ever happening personally means it would be extremely rare) where you have premades on one team and none on the other.

You, and others, can try to turn what I'm saying into an agenda if you like or disagree, etc. I'm saying what I'm saying because the direction everything is headed at the moment is going to hurt, not help with things like stomps in my opinion. I don't want new players having a bad experience. I don't want roflstomps to be the norm. Keeping the same system that everyone has complained about for over a year now doesn't fix anything. Smaller pools mean bigger discrepancies in MM.

What they're planning now is going to actually drive people away from dropping solo or at the very least keep them in the same situation some are facing now in regards to roflstomps and such. Even if I were an exclusively solo player I can see the data, what they're planning, and see that it's not going to fix anything simply because it doesn't change anything. The ggclose crowd isn't going to stop and when you pull out a good chunk of the population to pull from the MM has no choice but to expand its parameters to fill holes in games.

[Triordinant]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

The "new" launch module is teh exact same system you have now. It changes nothing except the new "rule of 3" with team composition. I don't understand how anyone can think this will change anything. You'll be launching in the exact same format that you are now. You'll have premades, you'll have Elo, you'll have the MM system. The only difference is you're going to have less players to pull from because they're segregating more of the population.

There are high tiered teams on both sides when I play now. It is VERY rare that I see a premade on one side only. I've never seen a match (although I'm sure it has happened but the fact that I can't recall it ever happening personally means it would be extremely rare) where you have premades on one team and none on the other.

You, and others, can try to turn what I'm saying into an agenda if you like or disagree, etc. I'm saying what I'm saying because the direction everything is headed at the moment is going to hurt, not help with things like stomps in my opinion. I don't want new players having a bad experience. I don't want roflstomps to be the norm. Keeping the same system that everyone has complained about for over a year now doesn't fix anything. Smaller pools mean bigger discrepancies in MM.

What they're planning now is going to actually drive people away from dropping solo or at the very least keep them in the same situation some are facing now in regards to roflstomps and such. Even if I were an exclusively solo player I can see the data, what they're planning, and see that it's not going to fix anything simply because it doesn't change anything. The ggclose crowd isn't going to stop and when you pull out a good chunk of the population to pull from the MM has no choice but to expand its parameters to fill holes in games.

1) The "new" launch module is NOT what I was asking for, but it's slightly better in the sense that PGI stated that a premade on one team will always be balanced by a premade on the other, rather than leaving it up to chance. Having the option of private matches is also better than not having the option.

2) What I WAS asking for was a premade-free, PUG-only queue and so far we're not getting it. Once we have it, we can easily tell whose prediction turns out to be accurate.

[Sandpit]

Triordinant, on 09 March 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

1) The "new" launch module is NOT what I was asking for, but it's slightly better in the sense that PGI stated that a premade on one team will always be balanced by a premade on the other, rather than leaving it up to chance. Having the option of private matches is also better than not having the option.

2) What I WAS asking for was a premade-free, PUG-only queue and so far we're not getting it. Once we have it, we can easily tell whose prediction turns out to be accurate.

1) that's exactly what we have now....

2) and I laid out a LOT of reasons why I just don't feel that's going to solve or fix anything unfortuantely

[redacted]

Edited by miSs, 09 March 2014 - 12:23 PM.
responding to deleted content

[Triordinant]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

1) that's exactly what we have now....

No it isn't. On his Feb. 27 Launch Module Update, Paul Inouye said:

"Yes, groups will still mix with solo players but on a much stricter level. Each team will have a maximum of 1 group in it. No longer will 2 groups of 4 be put on the same side. It will still be possible that a group of 4 is on one team and a group of 3 or 2 on the other but the Match Maker will try to find groups of equal sizes first and only go for smaller groups if even groups are not available."

That means that before April 29, two premades can end up on the same team. After April 29, that won't be possible. Before April 29, whether or not both teams will have a premade is left up to chance. After April 29, the Matchmaker will try to make sure both teams have a premade. The fact that Inouye has to announce these changes means what we'll have after April 29 is not exactly what we have now. Plus, there will be private matches, which don't exist now.

[Sandpit]

Triordinant, on 09 March 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

. After April 29, the Matchmaker will try to make sure both teams have a premade. The fact that Inouye has to announce these changes means what we'll have after April 29 is not exactly what we have now. Plus, there will be private matches, which don't exist now.

The MM does the same thing now. It tries to match another premade on the other side. That's how MM has worked for a very long time. Just because you only have a max of one premade on each side doesn't mean it's going to change the dynamic of how premades work. As I said above you'll have more mismatches in this system.

Private matches aren't going to be popular for anyone outside of the 12mans and player run leagues. Why in the world would anyone think playing for zero reward to buy new mechs and advance piloting skills would be popular is beyond me.
So I can play but I can't earn cbills, exp, participate in CW? That is simply not going to be how the majority wants to play. Private matches are NOT going to be what units want. They want to participate in CW just like everyone else and want to be able to drop with teammates and still progress within the game. Private matches are going to be niche just like the 12mans are now.

[Sandpit]

What I'm trying to explain is that the new launch module is not going to fix anything. It can't. It works in the same ways the current launch module works. We're still going to have new players getting discouraged, fumbling around trying to learn a game with a steep learning curve. We're still going to have roflstomps. We're still going to have ggclose attitudes that look forward to things like that. What separating a queue will do is make that situation worse, not better.

What the new launch module does is alienate a lot of players that have spent a lot of hours and money on this game, websites, ts servers, etc. which is just going to leave them wanting more and moving on eventually. Then you're left with more of the diehard and ggclose types, less of the middle of the road types, and new players who are just going to be fodder for those roflstomp types that everyone is tired of seeing because the player pool will dwindle even more.

The smaller the population the more often you'll see new players out of their league while learning and players on the lower end of the Elo spectrum facing off against players well above their skill level. This just isn't the answer in my opinion. I want this game to prosper because I enjoy playing it. If it dies off I cant play it. Therefore it behooves me to try and give feedback and ideas that help the game.

[Deathlike]

Roadbeer, on 09 March 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Obviously you've never tried to put together/keep together a casual 12 man, and what a PITA it is.

"Ok, everyone ready up, we're going to launch"
"Player 5, ready up please"
"Player 5?"
3 minutes pass, Player 5 returns
"Sorry guys, I was out having a smoke"
"Ok, here we go..."
Match played, resolved in 8 minutes, return to social screen...
"Ok guys, ready up"
"Hey, this is player 7, I have to go, its midnight here"
"That's cool, I have to go into mechlab for a few while you find a replacement"
"I need to pee, brb"
Comb the LFG, small group bays for 10 minutes before finding a replacement
"Ok, we're full again, everyone ready up"
"Sorry guys, this is Player 2, my dog just ate my kids Star Wars figure"
10 more minutes combing the channels for a replacement
"Ok, here we go"
Match played, resolved in 12 minutes back to Social screen
" Hey guys, I'm out of here, this shit takes too long"
3 others agree and leave the group
"Ok, now we have to find 4"
"**** this, let's just play in groups of 4"

So you now have 20 minutes of play time and 25 minutes trying to get everyone to press the damn ready button. 2 drops in an hour, and I wonder why the solo population is so large?

Welcome to 12-mans. We hope you enjoy your long stay (which will likely be shorter than having intercourse).

Sandpit, on 09 March 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

What I'm trying to explain is that the new launch module is not going to fix anything. It can't. It works in the same ways the current launch module works. We're still going to have new players getting discouraged, fumbling around trying to learn a game with a steep learning curve. We're still going to have roflstomps. We're still going to have ggclose attitudes that look forward to things like that. What separating a queue will do is make that situation worse, not better.

What the new launch module does is alienate a lot of players that have spent a lot of hours and money on this game, websites, ts servers, etc. which is just going to leave them wanting more and moving on eventually. Then you're left with more of the diehard and ggclose types, less of the middle of the road types, and new players who are just going to be fodder for those roflstomp types that everyone is tired of seeing because the player pool will dwindle even more.

The smaller the population the more often you'll see new players out of their league while learning and players on the lower end of the Elo spectrum facing off against players well above their skill level. This just isn't the answer in my opinion. I want this game to prosper because I enjoy playing it. If it dies off I cant play it. Therefore it behooves me to try and give feedback and ideas that help the game.

And.. thus, the whining against the MM continues.

Although, I don't think the new system will cause mismatches in skill level.. it'll actually cause a logjam of people needing a particular weight class (mediums) at the higher tiers to launch a complete drop.

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 09 March 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Although, I don't think the new system will cause mismatches in skill level.. it'll actually cause a logjam of people needing a particular weight class (mediums) at the higher tiers to launch a complete drop.

As it stands it won't cause any more mismatches than we have now. I personally dont' experience roflstomps often. I know some do though. This new module isn't going to change that and separate queues would be what I think will worsen that situation for the solo queue. If they want to separate them ok, I can live with that but all that will do is create bigger problems for the lone wolves and new players.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

As it stands it won't cause any more mismatches than we have now. I personally dont' experience roflstomps often. I know some do though. This new module isn't going to change that and separate queues would be what I think will worsen that situation for the solo queue. If they want to separate them ok, I can live with that but all that will do is create bigger problems for the lone wolves and new players.

I experience roflstomps on many levels (for and against), so I'm well versed in this.

I'm actually unsure how it will create bigger problems for lone wolves and new players... outside of the hairbrained Elo adjustment done after collecting the Cadet bonus. If you're suggesting that new players will not get "edumacated properly" at the lower Elo tiers (because, they will all be playing together), I guess you could have a point there. There are still very few tools at your immediate disposal (outside of downloading TS3 and join the "hordes" on Comstar or NGNG) that facilitate this easily. Although, if you check up on "theplan", PGI "appears" to agree with that assessment, but I sincerely don't know how they'll actually accomplish this (I mean, tutorials finally became srs business now?)

I'll just leave this thread with a deep sigh.

[Roadbeer]

Deathlike, on 09 March 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

(I mean, tutorials finally became srs business now?)

Its all part of the lead up to Sept. 2015 "Launch 2.0", after we muck around with "Launch 1.5", around Q4,2014

[Deathlike]

Roadbeer, on 09 March 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

Its all part of the lead up to Sept. 2015 "Launch 2.0", after we muck around with "Launch 1.5", around Q4,2014

Don't be using up my playbook! I was gonna save that for the "Launch Module" release...

6-man queues are DOA by 2016.