504 replies to this topic

[Davers]

I don't know why PGI would expect 12 players to pony up $18 million Cbills each for a dropship, but then not be able to drop together.

People want to play with their friends, not have to choose which friends to exclude. No mature player wants to stomp pugs. No mature player wants pugs to have a bad time playing. By far the best and most interesting matches are against other units.

Even in subscription games there is a lot more for groups to do than playing solo. If you are not in a guild in Warcraft you will not see the big dungeons, and if you got into a 'pick up' raid there was a good chance it would fail. How much of EVE's 'endgame' can a solo player experience? Everybody pays the subscription, but not everyone gets the 'whole game'.

I guess all us 'House Units' are just going to be stuck in limbo until PGI decides what it wants to do with us. Guess we should be glad they are willing to do anything, since we weren't even thought of when they designed the game.

[Deathlike]

Ideally, people want to be matched up with even premade sizes. 5-man vs 5-man, 11-man vs 11-man with PUGs to fill in the other slots. There could be some fudging as the team-sizes are not optimal (not enough 11-mans, so fudge to 10 or 9 mans - ideally a queue indicator would help players work with the MM's situation).

You CAN put whatever restrictions you want though, like the 3/3/3/3 system... at least you can "enforce" the idea that you don't want extended Steiner squads. People are willing to play together in those respects (despite those arbitrary restrictions) because they play together. It shouldn't sound that complicated.

Why should this be any more complicated?

Also, the premade-highlighting after the match should be instituted (the game should show the premade to your non-premade teammates prior to the match so they are aware you are a big group/clan), so people don't get all paranoid about the MM screwing them over.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 March 2014 - 03:57 PM.

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 10 March 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

I don't know why PGI would expect 12 players to pony up $18 million Cbills each for a dropship, but then not be able to drop together.

I never even considered that! Great point Davers!

This MIGHT have something to do with what they said about mercs having a different "bucket" system. I wonder if that means mercs won't be under the same restrictions as house players when it comes to that.....? If that's the case I see a LOT of faction players jumping ship to form their own merc units.......

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 10 March 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Also, the premade-highlighting after the match should be instituted (the game should show the premade to your non-premade teammates prior to the match so they are aware you are a big group/clan), so people don't get all paranoid about the MM screwing them over.

I'm all for it but I don't see it changing their perceptions. The players that are in the extremist type mindset are typically the ones that wail and flail about EVERY time they lose a game. I've literally seen people cuss, yell, etc. because the end of the match was 5-0.....

They cussed PGI and MM and premades because there were 5 enemy mechs left at the end of the match and complained that it was just another in a long line of "stomps"

[Davers]

Deathlike, on 10 March 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Ideally, people want to be matched up with even premade sizes. 5-man vs 5-man, 11-man vs 11-man with PUGs to fill in the other slots. There could be some fudging as the team-sizes are not optimal (not enough 11-mans, so fudge to 10 or 9 mans - ideally a queue indicator would help players work with the MM's situation).

You CAN put whatever restrictions you want though, like the 3/3/3/3 system... at least you can "enforce" the idea that you don't want extended Steiner squads. People are willing to play together in those respects (despite those arbitrary restrictions) because they play together. It shouldn't sound that complicated.

Why should this be any more complicated?

Also, the premade-highlighting after the match should be instituted (the game should show the premade to your non-premade teammates prior to the match so they are aware you are a big group/clan), so people don't get all paranoid about the MM screwing them over.

Exactly. A 12 man team should never drop against anything lighter than a 9 man team. An 8 man team should never drop against anything less than a 5 man team. This encourages groups to 'build up' to 12 mans. Demystifying 12 man groups is the best way to go.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 10 March 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

I'm all for it but I don't see it changing their perceptions. The players that are in the extremist type mindset are typically the ones that wail and flail about EVERY time they lose a game. I've literally seen people cuss, yell, etc. because the end of the match was 5-0.....

They cussed PGI and MM and premades because there were 5 enemy mechs left at the end of the match and complained that it was just another in a long line of "stomps"

Well, it's worth moping about it once in a while to get it out of the system (because, it happens a lot). Too bad it's harder to quantify and qualify why it happens (although, occasionally, self reflection of the loss is not done enough in the era of whining) when it's subjective generally.

I'd rather just classify the fear of premades as FEAR OF FRIENDS and make a hilarious joke about it.

[Roadbeer]

Deathlike, on 10 March 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

I'd rather just classify the fear of premades as FEAR OF FRIENDS and make a hilarious joke about it.

[Roland]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 10 March 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

I am a little surprised you have not seen, or do not believe such things occur in our current 'restrictive queue', although I admit those situations would a very rare occurance. However in a queue were 11 players would be in one premade group, and the pool of players for the other team is comprised of a majority of solo players, I suspect it will be more common (unless there are rules in place to prevent it). But as long as those players signed up for that experience, more power to them.

In an unrestricted queue, you wouldn't see one 11 man team and a million pugs.

You'd see a TON of smaller teams... Just like we used to have, prior to the 4 man cap.

But as I've suggested before (a hundred times), I'd suggest we make an unrestricted queue, and a solo queue.. so folks who really hate the idea of teams can go play in games where they know with 100% certainty that they are playing without any evil premades. I have no idea what they are going to blame their repeated losses on then, but i don't really care either.

Then the big boys can all play in the unrestricted queue, and start rebuilding the teams that broke up when they stopped letting us play with our friends.

[Roadbeer]

Roland, on 10 March 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

In an unrestricted queue, you wouldn't see one 11 man team and a million pugs.

You'd see a TON of smaller teams... Just like we used to have, prior to the 4 man cap.

But as I've suggested before (a hundred times), I'd suggest we make an unrestricted queue, and a solo queue.. so folks who really hate the idea of teams can go play in games where they know with 100% certainty that they are playing without any evil premades. I have no idea what they are going to blame their repeated losses on then, but i don't really care either.

Then the big boys can all play in the unrestricted queue, and start rebuilding the teams that broke up when they stopped letting us play with our friends.

+ 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 10 March 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Exactly. A 12 man team should never drop against anything lighter than a 9 man team. An 8 man team should never drop against anything less than a 5 man team. This encourages groups to 'build up' to 12 mans. Demystifying 12 man groups is the best way to go.

I think pushing the 12mans into their own little game while hard capping everyone else to 4 or less was the first major misstep in the whole MM thing. I understand why the 12mans were removed but it made it EXTREMELY difficult to find a game like that at times. Private matches SHOULD have been implemented immediately after this step. Without private matches 12mans lost a major foothold because there was absolutely no way for that demo to run leagues effectively. Had they implemented private matches at the same time I think the 12mans would have grown instead of dwindle.
Players starved for more than stomp and shoot waiting for CW would have flocked to leagues where they could at least have stats, planets to control, etc. The solo queue would have been the one dwindling. Instead they did it in reverse order and wonder why more people drop solo now.

[Sandpit]

Roland, on 10 March 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

I have no idea what they are going to blame their repeated losses on then, but i don't really care either.

MM
Elo
PGI
Weapon Balance
P2W


In other words, they'd find any and everything except their own skill, tactics, builds, teamwork (because lets face it, the ones that we're talking about here would NOT be the type to use coordination and such, they'd just continue to go full rambo)

Then you'd get some complaining that it's not "fair" voip users got their own queue

I'd love for them to do it though.

[Asmudius Heng]

Sandpit, on 10 March 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

This is where you, PGI, and many others are making a mistake I believe. It's not the expert players that are stomping new players and creating roflstomps in this regard. It's new players trying to learn a complicated system of game mechanics, heat, mech building, weapon systems, chassis selection, play style, etc. with minimal information on how to do so against average level players in customized and optimized mechs who have already gone through the learning curve and understand how the game works.

Until people start understanding that, the new player experience will never improve. If you take an "average" skill level pilot and place him in his favorite and best decked mech against a new player who is still trying to figure out how to turn off cockpit lights and how to group weapons and why chain firing is important, the result the majority of the time is a new player getting stomped and discouraged. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with premades, high tier elo players, 12mans, etc. That has to do with new players being tossed into a game with a steep learning curve against players who have had 2 years to learn it and outfit customized mechs that work well with their particular playstyle.



I explained it, several times with a myriad of reasons why. If you choose to ignore, dismiss, disagree, or otherwise not acknowledge the lengthy reasons I've stated as to why that's my opinion, no offense, but I'm not retyping them all again.

I am agreeing with you for once, wow haha

The new player experience is DIRE. It is beyond aweful and new players are left to the wolves and those wolves are pretty terrible as well but at least they have learned to manage thier heat for instance.

When i get into a game and i see champion mechs i know the team stacked with them are going to lose every time.

This is the worst game for new players becauase it is so complex and there is no integrated help to make them understand.

Add to that TERRIBLE in game communications systems for co-ordinating and you get the kind of random battlefield chaos that causes a SLIGHTLY more organised team to smash the other.

PGI have to address this if they want to bring in and keep new players, i am baffled at how thier business model even works with what must be a massive loss of new players - it takes a lot to get and keep a new player and make him a paying player so this is the most baffling part of the PGI experience ...

What they need is:

1. In game tutorials - not just youtube videos (though more youtube videos cant hurt if thats easier to do to start)
2. Better information about mechs and weapons in the mechlab (hopefully is part of the UI2.0 roadmap)
3. Better in game communications - pre battle chat with better tools, in game comma-rose style command and communications, in game VOIP etc etc etc
4. Make it easier to group up - make a Looking For Group system - they have responded to me on Twitter saying they like the idea but i dont know if that means its coming, or somethign they might add in a year or two

Give the players the TOOLs to be better with teamwork and it WILL evolve and you will see more groups and better games.

[Sandpit]

Asmudius Heng, on 10 March 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

When i get into a game and i see champion mechs i know the team stacked with them are going to lose every time.
.

+1 bacon cake for everything but this line

The current trial mechs are actually pretty good and I see (myself included) lots of vets running around in them from time to time. Granted it's not hard to spot a new player when they're firing those LRMs on the Stalker off at 50 meters but that's not always the case

[Asmudius Heng]

Sandpit, on 10 March 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

+1 bacon cake for everything but this line

The current trial mechs are actually pretty good and I see (myself included) lots of vets running around in them from time to time. Granted it's not hard to spot a new player when they're firing those LRMs on the Stalker off at 50 meters but that's not always the case

Not the mechs themself I should clarify - i mean if they are in a champion mech 99% of the time they are a newbie who doesnt know how to use even a well built mech. And do not understand how to work with a team ... its a newbie issue not a mech issue

[Sandpit]

Asmudius Heng, on 10 March 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

Not the mechs themself I should clarify - i mean if they are in a champion mech 99% of the time they are a newbie who doesnt know how to use even a well built mech. And do not understand how to work with a team ... its a newbie issue not a mech issue

THAT'S a new player experience problem though

I suggested giving new players free access to the mech lab and the trial mechs. 2 Variants of each chassis. Free customization. That way they could get experience with up to 8 variants and how the mech lab works, what loadouts fit their playstyle, how to put together an effective build, etc.

I also suggested a cadet only queue where new players only play other new players. That completely eliminates new players getting roflstomped by vets.

Both of those ideas would work MUCH better at helping to improve the new player experience than saying "Well we want to stop new players from getting roflstomped so you cant' join a group larger than 4 if you want to earn cbills and participate in CW"

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Sandpit, on 10 March 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

In other words, they'd find any and everything except their own skill, tactics, builds, teamwork (because lets face it, the ones that we're talking about here would NOT be the type to use coordination and such, they'd just continue to go full rambo)

Do you have one that says "Clans"

I would suggest that if you need any pointers on "skill, tactics, builds, teamwork" the 12 man teams can give you some pointers. If you don't have enough friends, you can probably get some of those eager pugs from the teamspeak servers.

[Sandpit]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 10 March 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

Do you have one that says "Clans"

I would suggest that if you need any pointers on "skill, tactics, builds, teamwork" the 12 man teams can give you some pointers. If you don't have enough friends, you can probably get some of those eager pugs from the teamspeak servers.

sure thing sparky
gl&gh

The sad thing is that up until this moment you've been helping us kick around ideas and get some good feedback going. Now you've just proven you're incapable of maintaining a grown up conversation and turn to sarcastic insults

Edited by Sandpit, 10 March 2014 - 05:32 PM.

[Novakaine]

Asmudius Heng, on 10 March 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I am agreeing with you for once, wow haha

The new player experience is DIRE. It is beyond aweful and new players are left to the wolves and those wolves are pretty terrible as well but at least they have learned to manage thier heat for instance.

When i get into a game and i see champion mechs i know the team stacked with them are going to lose every time.

This is the worst game for new players becauase it is so complex and there is no integrated help to make them understand.

Add to that TERRIBLE in game communications systems for co-ordinating and you get the kind of random battlefield chaos that causes a SLIGHTLY more organised team to smash the other.

PGI have to address this if they want to bring in and keep new players, i am baffled at how thier business model even works with what must be a massive loss of new players - it takes a lot to get and keep a new player and make him a paying player so this is the most baffling part of the PGI experience ...

What they need is:

1. In game tutorials - not just youtube videos (though more youtube videos cant hurt if thats easier to do to start)
2. Better information about mechs and weapons in the mechlab (hopefully is part of the UI2.0 roadmap)
3. Better in game communications - pre battle chat with better tools, in game comma-rose style command and communications, in game VOIP etc etc etc
4. Make it easier to group up - make a Looking For Group system - they have responded to me on Twitter saying they like the idea but i dont know if that means its coming, or somethign they might add in a year or two

Give the players the TOOLs to be better with teamwork and it WILL evolve and you will see more groups and better games.

This game has a deliciously hard learning curve.
"LEARNING CURVE".
PGI should revel in the fact and not try to turn it into a another oh so dull shooter.
People who really like the game will play the game period.
They will spend money period.
They will hang around for years like many of us founders.
Why ya ask?
"Because despite all we actually like the game!"
That being said.
PGI should actively encourage new players to find like players and help them to group up.
Learning curve problem solved veterans will help/train the new players.
New players will get training and see some success early on adding more enjoyment to the game.
Then after they get a bit of experience under then they can hit the "Lone Wolf Trail".
PGI screw the pooch with this lone wolf approach.
Which is fine for Battlefield and Call of Duty.
But for MWO it ain't working.
If you want to LW fine and good I have no problem with that, heck we all pug.
But Merc Lobbies and Team Lobbies are the way to go.

[DerelictTomcat]

Thought I read somewhere we are supposed to get a daisy wheel like BF3 press Q circle menu pops up spot enemy, etc. New mechlab is hard for a veteran player to use. No cancel buttons making it necessary to back out and confirm all changes lost. Quitting the game now is what three or four steps? Very wasteful use of my time is what frustrates me.

[Sandpit]

DerelictTomcat, on 10 March 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

Thought I read somewhere we are supposed to get a daisy wheel like BF3 press Q circle menu pops up spot enemy, etc. New mechlab is hard for a veteran player to use. No cancel buttons making it necessary to back out and confirm all changes lost. Quitting the game now is what three or four steps? Very wasteful use of my time is what frustrates me.

Russ mentioned on Twitter recently (within the past week or so) that they'd like to do a command bloom but that's all I've heard about it