504 replies to this topic

[Name115734]

Iskareot, on 27 February 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

So seeing this stat, am I to believe that 84% of each drop is PUG and not premade now? ?? Is that what is being said?? Because that sounds like complete bullshit.

This is quoted directly from Bryan Erkman, taken from their own metrics.

[Roadbeer]

As I've said elsewhere, I believe the statistics they're using are HORRIBLY skewed.

Of the 84% dropping solo, how many of those are the "odd man out", meaning the 5th man?
Let's say, conservatively, 10%.
Also, as some have said, it's easier to get your 5 friends together (if you're near each other in Elo) if none of you are grouped and all trying to sync drop solo. I haven't tried this and it sounds like kinda of a pain in the ass, so we'll give that 5%
Also, when I see 12 mans running, I'll often see a few extras in the room soloing because they're waiting on a spot in the 12 man, because they want to be rotated through that group and don't want to join a smaller group and miss their shot. We'll consider this a relatively low number, but I bring it up just as a "remove from column A and add to column B", but for the sake of argument, let's give it an arbitrary liberal number of 5%
Now, lets add a bunch of unquantifiable reasons like "finding a group with an open slot is a PITA", "It takes my friends list too long to load now" etc, etc, etc and tag on another arbitrary number so we can round everything nicely and say 60% solo and 40% group...

Also in those stats given, 4% were 4 man groups and 10% were 2/3 man groups. My question is, "How many of those would have been larger groups, if not for the 4/12 player cap?" and "How much larger would the 12 player queue be, if you allowed groups to build UP TO 12 players?"

I'm still on my first cup of coffee here, so I'm kinda all over the place, so I'm just going to wrap it up with...

PGI, your statistics on groups, since the 4/8/12 player group caps were implemented, are horrendously bad, and you're looking at the game from the 10,000' view without questioning why the stats have changed and why they are the way they are. You really should interact more with the community's that have formed around the game (I know for a fact they've never approached www.house-marik.net) and find out what our concerns / issues are with group play.

[Lefty Lucy]

Let me clear up a couple of misconceptions in the OP's assumptions:

1. "Team Game" does not mean a focus on pre-made teams. Every single player, every single game, is on a team. It's a team game by simple merit of having no solo game modes. The difference between this and other team games is, as others have previously mentioned, the fact that this game offers very few effective communication tools for non-premade players.

2. The reason why 8/12-mans quickly became a ghost town is because players who only teamed up for easy wins didn't want to play in games where they might actually go up against some competition. I have played in a *lot* of full-team matches, and anyone else who has has experienced the phenomenon where a team gets rolling, then after one loss guys have to leave suddenly. God forbid one of the few other teams on the same night is a unit that's just flat-out better than yours, because you run into them twice and your team breaks up for the night entirely. The entire reason why organizing a 12-man is a "hassle" is because these players, which represented a sizable proportion of players in units, stopped showing up entirely.

In my mind, when guys say, "bring back bigger teams in PUG matches!" what they're actually saying is "bring back our easy mode wins!"

[NRP]

Where did PGI mention these numbers?

It's interesting because lately I've been trying to find a group to drop with but haven't really had much success in doing so. I've tried a few of the commonly suggested TS3 servers (Comstar, NGNG, etc), but it seems like no one is really that interested in joining up.

[Noesis]

Roadbeer, on 27 February 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

I know for a fact they've never approached www.house-marik.net) and find out what our concerns / issues are with group play.

Maybe some existing posting behaviour by notable Marik members on the MWO forum perhaps an off putting experience to consider this form of dialogue?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I love it...

When people make assertions here "If PGI didn't give you those numbers, they aren't real".

When PGI releases numbers that people don't like "PGI isn't giving us the right numbers".

HILARIOUS.

Noesis, on 27 February 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Maybe some existing posting behaviour by notable Marik members on the MWO forum perhaps an off putting experience to consider this form of dialogue?

haha!

[Roland]

Lefty Lucy, on 27 February 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

2. The reason why 8/12-mans quickly became a ghost town is because players who only teamed up for easy wins didn't want to play in games where they might actually go up against some competition.

You are absolutely wrong here.

The reason that queue was a ghost town was because IT WAS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS TO PLAY IN IT.

That is the reason. The suggestion that folks were intentionally avoiding it is not remotely true.

Getting exactly 8 players, and then when they bumped it to exactly 12 players, is just far too much of a hassle to bother with. Here's how it goes down:

1 Player, cool.
2 Players, cool.
3 Players cool.
4 Players, cool.
5 Players... DERP. Now you have to deal with something. Either that guy plays by himself (and many people don't want to do this), or someone from the first 4 breaks off from the group and goes to play with him (leading to what Roadbeer describes... and is ALSO a poor option because it generally means a separate comms channel, which makes it harder to just talk among each other in friendly conversation, etc.).

This problem then continues all the way up to 11 players. Basically, when new players show up, it creates a disruption in game play. What often happens, in my experience, is that folks just drop off to make room for the new guy... Not because they HAVE to, but because they might have something else they could do, and it's nicer to not force a group to disband, or that one guy to play by himself.

The result of this is that as new players show up, existing players drop off. This means that you never really have a chance to get to the critical mass of 12 players. In order for that to happen, you'd have to really agree on all being there ahead of time, and frankly, lots of folks just don't want to put that kind of thought into it.

There are (or rather, were) tons of us who would have been more than willing to play against full 12 man teams, even when playing with only a partial team... But the system actively prevented us from doing that.

The biggest problem with the 12 man queue wasn't the existence of the queue itself, but the totally ill conceived requirement that you could ONLY play in that queue if you had exactly 12 players. They should have let groups of ANY size join that queue.

[Roadbeer]

Noesis, on 27 February 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Maybe some existing posting behaviour by notable Marik members on the MWO forum perhaps an off putting experience to consider this form of dialogue?

LOL

But wait, I though the posting behavior of these Mariks were in the vein of "shills", "White Knights" and "PGI Apologists". Wouldn't that be a safe environment for them?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

No, not all of PGI likes you. They just don't talk about it outloud. They do it in private messages. They are split like we are.

@Roland (didn't want to quote)

To be fair it's a mix...the current systems and limitations suck.

But there is also a subset of people who want to roll PUG's with little or no resistance.

So it's not one or the other, it's both.

[Noesis]

Roadbeer, on 27 February 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

LOL

But wait, I though the posting behavior of these Mariks were in the vein of "shills", "White Knights" and "PGI Apologists". Wouldn't that be a safe environment for them?

Is sycophantic rhetoric really the most helpful viewpoint for MWO interests?

[Asakara]

NRP, on 27 February 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Where did PGI mention these numbers?

It's interesting because lately I've been trying to find a group to drop with but haven't really had much success in doing so. I've tried a few of the commonly suggested TS3 servers (Comstar, NGNG, etc), but it seems like no one is really that interested in joining up.

It was in NGNG#103, Part 3. Here is a link to a text summary of the audio discussion:

http://mwomercs.com/...-3-aired-22214/

[Roadbeer]

Noesis, on 27 February 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

Is sycophantic rhetoric really the most helpful viewpoint for MWO interests?

Think you need to do a bit of research, maybe in the 3PV and "P2CW" threads...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Asakara, on 27 February 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

It was in NGNG#103, Part 3. Here is a link to a text summary of the audio discussion: http://mwomercs.com/...-3-aired-22214/

But remember, PGI's numbers are totally wrong. Per Roadbeer.

[Kyle Wright]

RichAC, on 27 February 2014 - 03:14 AM, said:

They are coming out with private matches soon hopefully. You can read about it on the forums, I hope units start having their own private tourneys.

Because of low player bases, some games have to force people to play both sides sometimes. The matchmaker has to include everyone. Hopefully it doesn't get that bad. Just have to stick with the game man, till all the wining anonymous carebears disappear and it hopefully grows. Hopefully...

There are already teams competing in private leagues. The issue is to many of the people in PUG land are so anti group play they dont hesitate to complain when they get wiped by a 3-man group. There is a reason we have lances of 4. This aint COD it takes teamwork to bring guys down faster. i wont even get into the horror of trying to sync drop 12's just to get 4 drops in for these leagues. Hell us guys in HHoD would have no problem taking a new unit under our wing and showing people how to set up 12-mans, how to drop call, tactics, mech comps. In HHoD we have everyone from casual once a week to ultra competitive in our comp team 007.

The day PUGs join a unit the better off youll be, units have guys that have been there before and know the ins and outs of the game and can help new players gain experience a lot quicker.

[Noesis]

Roadbeer, on 27 February 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Think you need to do a bit of research, maybe in the 3PV and "P2CW" threads...

Why?

Surely the above examples as offered above I'm guessing where an opportunity where you expressed objective constructive opinion to MWO in a mature way?

Your more specific examples you provided about posting behavior however are related to very particular methods.

Edited by Noesis, 27 February 2014 - 08:10 AM.

[Roadbeer]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 February 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

But remember, PGI's numbers are totally wrong. Per Roadbeer.

So, have a lot of experience with groups do you?
It's something I participate in every time I play.

[Kyle Wright]

Lefty Lucy, on 27 February 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Let me clear up a couple of misconceptions in the OP's assumptions:

1. "Team Game" does not mean a focus on pre-made teams. Every single player, every single game, is on a team. It's a team game by simple merit of having no solo game modes. The difference between this and other team games is, as others have previously mentioned, the fact that this game offers very few effective communication tools for non-premade players.

2. The reason why 8/12-mans quickly became a ghost town is because players who only teamed up for easy wins didn't want to play in games where they might actually go up against some competition. I have played in a *lot* of full-team matches, and anyone else who has has experienced the phenomenon where a team gets rolling, then after one loss guys have to leave suddenly. God forbid one of the few other teams on the same night is a unit that's just flat-out better than yours, because you run into them twice and your team breaks up for the night entirely. The entire reason why organizing a 12-man is a "hassle" is because these players, which represented a sizable proportion of players in units, stopped showing up entirely.

In my mind, when guys say, "bring back bigger teams in PUG matches!" what they're actually saying is "bring back our easy mode wins!"

If your team is losing players do to a loss, then as a leader you need to challenge them. The only way you get better is by playing better teams. You think I like playing Steel Jaguars? HELLLLLL NNNNOOOOO, because Ive yet to beat them outside of time in the HhoD Comp team 007. When I drop with my BTL, we shudder at SJR because we know they are teh best. They focus fire like you wouldnt believe, there team work is something that other teams could only hope to achieve. But we play them knowing for every loss there is a lesson, and from that lesson we can only get stronger.

If any of you are curious about 12-mans with a team that wont quit after a loss. Then come to the Davion Server (hhod.com has teamspeak) and we will gladly let you take a spot in 1 of our 12-mans(usually BTL's have drop nights, then there are our 6 comp teams so pick). Maybe that will sprak your attention and youll want to get people back into the saddle. 121-mans are the purest form of strategy and individual discipline out there. There is no chaos when you fight a team whose organized.

[Willard Phule]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 February 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

But remember, PGI's numbers are totally wrong. Per Roadbeer.

Oh oh oh....*gotta put on my Sandpit costume*

But, Roadbeer's opinion.....and yours as well....are just that, YOUR opinion. Other people's opinions may be different.

*chuckle*

Edited by Willard Phule, 27 February 2014 - 08:17 AM.

[Imperius]

Roadbeer, on 27 February 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

So, have a lot of experience with groups do you?
It's something I participate in every time I play.

I can say since I've joined The Remnant the odd man out happens or we have multiple 3-4 mans dropping. So I'll back you up Roadbeer!
Trolls Soon™

[Roadbeer]

Willard Phule, on 27 February 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

Oh oh oh....*gotta put on my Sandpit costume*

But, Roadbeer's opinion.....and yours as well....are just that, YOUR opinion. Other people's opinions may be different.

*chuckle*

You had to edit such a short post?

*chuckle*