504 replies to this topic

[Davers]

DerelictTomcat, on 10 March 2014 - 05:26 PM, said:

Thought I read somewhere we are supposed to get a daisy wheel like BF3 press Q circle menu pops up spot enemy, etc. New mechlab is hard for a veteran player to use. No cancel buttons making it necessary to back out and confirm all changes lost. Quitting the game now is what three or four steps? Very wasteful use of my time is what frustrates me.

I heard that if they press QQ they get a circle menu with all the different reasons their team sucks.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Looks like this discussion has shifted to here ... since we only have the snapshot of data from PGI (84% solo, 16% teamed, etc.), I really don't think we have enough informaiton to make any conclusions about how or why this happened.

However, my observation ... almost every match I play in has more than 16% in a pre-made team ... most matches have one pre-made on each side, some have more than one. Qualification ... I am fairly certain, based on the people I see on my team and the opposing team, that my Elo is above average. (If my performance last night is any indication, that's questionable, but it's my experience and observation.)

With the new match making rules (one group of 2-4 per team, 3/3/3/3, three Elo buckets), there is one additional rule (maybe two) that will help make most of the "groups of 5-11" guys happier and help acheive what I think PGI's trying to acheive:

• Groups will be matched against similar sized (let's say +/-1) groups on the opposing team ... this could be implemented incrementally (first allow groups of 2-6, then 2-8, etc.) to see how it goes
  
• (Optional) Group Elo should be computed differently than straight average to account for the impact additional coordination has on their likelihood to win

I am concerned that the Elo buckets, 3/3/3/3, and one group-per-team rules will have unintended consequences, specifically:

• very long queue times for the popular weight classes
  
• long queue times for solo droppers in the upper Elo bracket (where groups seem more prevalent)

I think this could be mitigated by letting solo droppers know average wait times for each weight class ... let them decide which is more important to them (playing in an assault, or finding a match quickly).

All that said, I understand why they're making these changes, and agree with most of them ... I just think PGI should use this as a starting point, and keep the door open to future improvements.

[Davers]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 10 March 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

Looks like this discussion has shifted to here ... since we only have the snapshot of data from PGI (84% solo, 16% teamed, etc.), I really don't think we have enough informaiton to make any conclusions about how or why this happened.

However, my observation ... almost every match I play in has more than 16% in a pre-made team ... most matches have one pre-made on each side, some have more than one. Qualification ... I am fairly certain, based on the people I see on my team and the opposing team, that my Elo is above average. (If my performance last night is any indication, that's questionable, but it's my experience and observation.)

With the new match making rules (one group of 2-4 per team, 3/3/3/3, three Elo buckets), there is one additional rule (maybe two) that will help make most of the "groups of 5-11" guys happier and help acheive what I think PGI's trying to acheive:

• Groups will be matched against similar sized (let's say +/-1) groups on the opposing team ... this could be implemented incrementally (first allow groups of 2-6, then 2-8, etc.) to see how it goes
  
• (Optional) Group Elo should be computed differently than straight average to account for the impact additional coordination has on their likelihood to win

I am concerned that the Elo buckets, 3/3/3/3, and one group-per-team rules will have unintended consequences, specifically:

• very long queue times for the popular weight classes
  
• long queue times for solo droppers in the upper Elo bracket (where groups seem more prevalent)

I think this could be mitigated by letting solo droppers know average wait times for each weight class ... let them decide which is more important to them (playing in an assault, or finding a match quickly).


All that said, I understand why they're making these changes, and agree with most of them ... I just think PGI should use this as a starting point, and keep the door open to future improvements.

It is amazing how many people run into that 16% of groups.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Davers, on 10 March 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

It is amazing how many people run into that 16% of groups.

I'm guessing, but I think that this could be better stated as: how many people who are active on the forums run into that 16% of groups.

I would bet that most of the players who are active on the forums want to be part of a community and group, have been playing (grouped and solo) for more than a few months, and would rather team up than drop solo.

I can only relate to my experience and observation, but when I see 2-4 players that I know are members of the same organized team/clan, it's a pretty good bet that they're in a group. I see that almost every match, whether I drop solo or grouped.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 10 March 2014 - 06:26 PM.

[Sandpit]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 10 March 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

• (Optional) Group Elo should be computed differently than straight average to account for the impact additional coordination has on their likelihood to win

This was a huge mistake and one of the main culprits behind higher Elo players winding up in matches against new players and lower tier players.
If Player A has an Elo of 2000 and groups with 3 players that have 1000 Elo that averages to a group Elo of 1250. That 2000 Elo player is now facing off in that bracket. Instead the low Elo players the group with that high Elo player SHOULD have to step up and the group Elo SHOULD equate to the highest Elo of the group.
That would completely and totally prevent the situation I laid out above. Elo isn't the culprit, how PGI chose to work Elo in groups is.

If you're going to group up and you know you're below average- average in comparison to the rest of your group then you're willingly and knowingly putting yourself in that situation.

New players should NOT start in the "middle of the pack" when it comes to Elo. They should start at the lower end and work their way up.

Those two changes would completely alleviate the whole "I'm new and facing off against ggclose top tier players and getting roflstomped constantly"

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

I agree with everything in the above post, but this in particular ...

Sandpit, on 10 March 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

New players should NOT start in the "middle of the pack" when it comes to Elo. They should start at the lower end and work their way up.

Is also one of my concerns with the way Elo is computed, and has been for some time.

[Haji1096]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 February 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

I'll be honest, I don't know if I'd have joined a group if it was based off in game chatter. My reason for joining Murphy's was they are Military so they will get some of my darker humor and their posts here during CB showed me they had a temperament that I could hang with.

Other than that groups used to advertise in text, but that got made into something dirty and shameful for some reason.

I joined my unit within the first 3 weeks of closed beta. I got my ass kicked in a game and asked: "WTF did you guys do ?" They gave me ts info and I was off and running. I've played with same unit for nearly two years. If it wasn't for my clan/guild/unit, I would have stopped playing the game a long time ago. Playing with a clan isn't always heavily structured. You can join and group up in at your own place. If you are PUGing between errands or whatever you just put PUG in your name.

Frankly, PGI is very lucky that people outside the game are willing to set up MCW, and other tournaments / post youtube videos / stream on twitch. It somewhat fills the void that community warfare should. And I'm still learning from other guys within my unit and from dropping with other units.

[Roadbeer]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 10 March 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

you can probably get some of those eager pugs from the teamspeak servers.

Why should I have to go dig around for 5 people who probably don't understand the concept of a "ready drop" when I already have 6 other people who are ready to play now?

Edited by Roadbeer, 10 March 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[Hexenhammer]

Roadbeer, on 10 March 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

Why should I have to go dig around for 5 people who probably don't understand the concept of a "ready drop" when I already have 6 other people who are ready to play now?

/truth.

[Sandpit]

Roadbeer, on 10 March 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

Why should I have to go dig around for 5 people who probably don't understand the concept of a "ready drop" when I already have 6 other people who are ready to play now?

Because premades have been the easy scapegoat for roflstomps since CB. That's really the reason why

[Hexenhammer]

And even if/when we have pure pug on pug action people will demand PGI do something to stop the rolfastomps.

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 10 March 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

Because premades have been the easy scapegoat for roflstomps since CB. That's really the reason why

Premades didn't go out and try to stomp pugs in CB, PGI MADE us stomp pugs because of how we dropped- no attempt at skill matching, just weight class. So if a premade dropped with 3 Jenners, Hunchback, 2 Catapults and 2 Atlases and no other premade was dropping with that exact make up (3/1/2/2) then you went up against pugs.

So either, 1. PGI had no idea what they were doing with MM and didn't understand their own system, 2. didn't care (Hey, it's Beta!), or 3. allowed it to happen to collect data.

[Novakaine]

Premades are now just a straw man for PGI to justify the wacky conclusion they've come up with.
For previously stated reasons.
Or at least until they can figure out how to monetize them.

[Zolaz]

It doesnt matter what kind of rules PGI puts in, people will get stomped. As long as I get pinpoint targeting and there are people running around who cant play, those people will get crushed. Noobs will come to the forums and complain about every problem except the one they can correct, themselves.

If PGI was smart, and I dont believe they have anyone over there who is, they would have a solo queue and then a team queue. Let you have teams 2-12. Balance equal number teams on each side. Reward solo droppers in the team que with a c-bill increase. Make it 3/3/3/3 if you have to and based on an averaged ELO of the team with a slight bump because of team coordination.

Edited by Zolaz, 10 March 2014 - 09:13 PM.

[Hexenhammer]

Zolaz, on 10 March 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

It doesnt matter what kind of rules PGI puts in, people will get stomped. As long as I get pinpoint targeting and there are people running around who cant play, those people will get crushed. Noobs will come to the forums and complain about every problem except the one they can correct, themselves.

If PGI was smart, and I dont believe they have anyone over there who is, they would have a solo queue and then a team queue. Let you have teams 2-12. Balance equal number teams on each side. Reward solo droppers in the team que with a c-bill increase. Make it 3/3/3/3 if you have to and based on an averaged ELO of the team with a slight bump because of team coordination.

I've been watching M.A.V. videos and wonder what if. What if....

Edited by Hexenhammer, 10 March 2014 - 09:45 PM.

[Sandpit]

Hexenhammer, on 10 March 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

And even if/when we have pure pug on pug action people will demand PGI do something to stop the rolfastomps.

Davers, on 10 March 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

Premades didn't go out and try to stomp pugs in CB, PGI MADE us stomp pugs because of how we dropped- no attempt at skill matching, just weight class. So if a premade dropped with 3 Jenners, Hunchback, 2 Catapults and 2 Atlases and no other premade was dropping with that exact make up (3/1/2/2) then you went up against pugs.

So either, 1. PGI had no idea what they were doing with MM and didn't understand their own system, 2. didn't care (Hey, it's Beta!), or 3. allowed it to happen to collect data.

Novakaine, on 10 March 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

Premades are now just a straw man for PGI to justify the wacky conclusion they've come up with.
For previously stated reasons.
Or at least until they can figure out how to monetize them.

Zolaz, on 10 March 2014 - 09:12 PM, said:

It doesnt matter what kind of rules PGI puts in, people will get stomped. As long as I get pinpoint targeting and there are people running around who cant play, those people will get crushed. Noobs will come to the forums and complain about every problem except the one they can correct, themselves.

If PGI was smart, and I dont believe they have anyone over there who is, they would have a solo queue and then a team queue. Let you have teams 2-12. Balance equal number teams on each side. Reward solo droppers in the team que with a c-bill increase. Make it 3/3/3/3 if you have to and based on an averaged ELO of the team with a slight bump because of team coordination.

I agree wholeheartedly with every one of these posts. Now it's not a matter of wondering why they did it, we really need to keep kicking around ideas and examples. Whether you think it's incompetence, conspiracy, mistakes, good intentions, etc. isn't the important thing at this point.

I don't care if people call me a white knight, shill, troll, etc. I enjoy this game. I want this game to succeed. I don't feel the recent decisions they're making and direction they're heading is going to do that. I want them to understand why it won't based on showing them where they've made mistakes when it comes to this data. I really do think that we've done a good job thus far of giving civil (albeit unhappy) feedback which (just based on my opinion and previous track records) this will be the best way to get them to listen.

The minute people start wailing and flailing and insulting they'll stop listening (as most any of us would if the tables were turned) Even those that don't agree with myself, davers, road, Hex, Death, and many others have brought up points that have caused us to think about other reasons why this new launch module isn't going to work the way they want it to.

This isn't a "sign my petition because PGI sucks" mentality, this is some of us looking ahead and understanding that they're making a mistake. We're pointing it out not because we want to feel smug or proud that "PGI proved us right and they suck" but because I think most of us want the game to succeed and we do enjoy stomping around pew pew pewing and dakka dakka dakkaing

I think we've got some really good points and idea floating around in this thread and I'd hate to see it get shut down because we let our disappointment get the best of us

[PhoenixFire55]

Triordinant, on 09 March 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

uncoordinated high Elo players

There is no such thing. Truly high Elo players don't need voice chat to work together, cover each other and focus fire on high priority targets.

[PhoenixFire55]

Roadbeer, on 09 March 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

Premade [average of 4 players Elo = Elo, 4 of the heaviest slots taken (because honestly, who's going to trust a PUG with an assault slot)]

So much this ... so many trial Stalkers with 0-30 damge its not even hurting anymore. Pain limit reached.

[PhoenixFire55]

Too many people stopped playing the game because of group limits. They might have returned because PGI promised unlimited group sizes, but wait ... lies again. They might have returned for community warfare, but wait ... I have to pay to play with/against particular team?

And what did the limit achieve? Poor puggers still cry about getting roflstomped by premades even when there are none around, matches are still as unbalanced as ever if not worse.

Honestly ... does anyone really believe that the PUG-only population will keep playing this game for 2, 3, 4, 5 years? Who will play your stupid game in the long run PGI? I'll tell you ... nobody will if you just keep screwing groups over and over again.

[PhoenixFire55]

Sandpit, on 10 March 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

+1 bacon cake for everything but this line

The current trial mechs are actually pretty good and I see (myself included) lots of vets running around in them from time to time. Granted it's not hard to spot a new player when they're firing those LRMs on the Stalker off at 50 meters but that's not always the case

And yet most times its newbs inside. And I have no way of telling if its a newb or not before its too late. I mean, if it showed me that 'TrialStalker.1' has 10 games under his belt and 'TrialStalker.2' has 1548 games I'd totally use chat and tell the no.1 guy to use R for locks and only fire missiles between 180 and 1000m without the risk of hearing smth like 'gtfo and teach smb else'.