227 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Bhael Fire, on 12 March 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

That's why I support 2-12 player groups; I WANT them to ditch this 4-player maximum silliness and allow groups to play with any number of player that they want in public matches.

Jeez...I didn't think I was being cryptic about that. Thought I was pretty straight forward in my proposal.

What Road is saying is that as it stands now and based on what PGI has stated, the only way for us to group past 4 is to do so in private matches for no rewards. I understand you're saying that you only suggest that for private matches and support public matches for groups over 4 BUT PGI hasn't said they'll allow that so as it stands right now the only way for us to do that is for no rewards in private matches.

There's a few problems with that. PGI has stated for certain private matches players will have to carry premium time. Ok, that's fine and more than a few were actually ok with that. Then they say no rewards for those matches. Ok uhm........ why the heck would ANYone carry premium time when they can't obtain the only bonus that comes from buying it in the first place?

I can buy a month of premium time but if I want to play exclusively as a group of any size I'm giving up the only bonus premium time gives you in the form of a cbill boost. That makes zero sense..

"Buy premium time so you can play without earning any cbills"

Also at that point why would I drop another penny into a game that isn't going to allow me to advance, earn cbills to buy new mechs, engines, modules, etc. I very rarely say something like this but that's just plain stupid. I'm going to pay you money to play in a private match where I can't earn anything that will allow me to advance my piloting skills, buy new mechs, participate in CW, etc.?

[Sephlock]

Sandpit, on 12 March 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

What Road is saying is that as it stands now and based on what PGI has stated, the only way for us to group past 4 is to do so in private matches for no rewards. I understand you're saying that you only suggest that for private matches and support public matches for groups over 4 BUT PGI hasn't said they'll allow that so as it stands right now the only way for us to do that is for no rewards in private matches.

There's a few problems with that. PGI has stated for certain private matches players will have to carry premium time. Ok, that's fine and more than a few were actually ok with that. Then they say no rewards for those matches. Ok uhm........ why the heck would ANYone carry premium time when they can't obtain the only bonus that comes from buying it in the first place?

I can buy a month of premium time but if I want to play exclusively as a group of any size I'm giving up the only bonus premium time gives you in the form of a cbill boost. That makes zero sense..

"Buy premium time so you can play without earning any cbills"

Also at that point why would I drop another penny into a game that isn't going to allow me to advance, earn cbills to buy new mechs, engines, modules, etc. I very rarely say something like this but that's just plain stupid. I'm going to pay you money to play in a private match where I can't earn anything that will allow me to advance my piloting skills, buy new mechs, participate in CW, etc.?

That's why they nerfed c-bill earnings, to lessen the sting of this. It's all part of the master plan.

[Bhael Fire]

Roadbeer, on 12 March 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

But that option isn't on the table, so instead, you advise the president of the company to contemplate not allowing rewards for the only option given to large groups because it might be exploitable.

As means of pointing out that shoving groups larger than 4 into private matches isn't feasible? Yes.

The fact is, groups need to have their own, unrestricted queue.

[Roadbeer]

Bhael Fire, on 12 March 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

As means of pointing out that shoving groups larger than 4 into private matches isn't feasible? Yes.

The fact is, groups need to have their own, unrestricted queue.

That's basically what Russ said they were going to put rewards into (private matches) since that's going to be their hamfisted version of a group queue.
To which you said "NO!"

Look out, those Evil Premade Boogeymen may actually benefit from playing each other.

[Bhael Fire]

Sandpit, on 12 March 2014 - 02:08 PM, said:

What Road is saying is that as it stands now and based on what PGI has stated, the only way for us to group past 4 is to do so in private matches for no rewards. I understand you're saying that you only suggest that for private matches and support public matches for groups over 4 BUT PGI hasn't said they'll allow that so as it stands right now the only way for us to do that is for no rewards in private matches.

They are considering all their options right now...I'm not sensing that they are adamant about group sizes right now. I think they are exploring ideas to make the game enjoyable for everyone.

Also as I mentioned, I pointed it out in hopes that they will realize that forcing groups larger than 4 into private matches might not be a good idea.

[Sandpit]

Bhael Fire, on 12 March 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

They are considering all their options right now...I'm not sensing that they are adamant about group sizes right now. I think they are exploring ideas to make the game enjoyable for everyone..

I understand that but exploring options isn't the same as what we know for a fact will be implemented at this point. They've also said they will put out the launch module first THEN look into other options. Based on their previous track record I'm not putting much faith in that because I'm not going to hand them money hoping that 6 months after that they might change something

[Kaldor]

Prezimonto, on 12 March 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

I'm still not even convinced their data is appropriate. But I will point out that games like CoD come out with new versions every year or two, which is the only way to deal with a largely solo crowd. A game that's out for the long haul needs to cater to communities as they're they provide a sense of place that keeps players around for much longer.

JFC, can I like this about 500 times?

Any long term game, where you have a single "game" so to speak, has to develop good communities, or it dies.

Solo players does not a community make...

[Roadbeer]

Sandpit, on 12 March 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

I understand that but exploring options isn't the same as what we know for a fact will be implemented at this point. They've also said they will put out the launch module first THEN look into other options. Based on their previous track record I'm not putting much faith in that because I'm not going to hand them money hoping that 6 months after that they might change something

Which gets back to my ire when someone tweets Russ saying "No, don't because it may be exploitable"

So, until PGI gets around to making a more friendly group environment, because some fool pointed out that it may be exploitable, we're sans rewards.

Doesn't effect them, they only play solo, so who cares? amirite?

[Bhael Fire]

Roadbeer, on 12 March 2014 - 02:18 PM, said:

That's basically what Russ said they were going to put rewards into (private matches) since that's going to be their hamfisted version of a group queue.
To which you said "NO!"

He also said you will not be able to modify the options in the free private matches; it's essentially the 12-man queue. So basically 5-11's are still getting the shaft...because he made no mention of rewards in premium private matches.

Dude, calm down. We are in agreement here on a lot of things. But adding rewards to private matches is another bandaid fix that this game doesn't need.

[Kaldor]

Roadbeer, on 12 March 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

Look at the respondents on this page, 4 of them were Founders/Phoenix buy-ins, and all are part of a community of some sorts. I also know for a fact that the other two Purple Birds have a fair number of mechbays, paint jobs, heros, etc. I think it's safe to say that Roland does too. One has to ask if even if they were still playing, if they'd own half of that if they weren't invested in a community.

I resemble that remark...

4 heros, and a crapload of mech bays, $220 invested thus far. Still sitting on about 2k MC IIRC.

But since about a year ago, N.O.P.E....

I should be the demographic they are targeting, you know people with money, job, sense of community, all the things that keeps a game going. Right now 95% of the player base is in a revolving door situation. Time that average player plays right now, 1 week to 2 months Id be willing to venture.

[Sandpit]

That's another thing I've always had an issue with. They point out that xx number of players drop. That's fine and dandy but until you understand who those players are they're meaningless in that regard.

if 1000 players drop this weekend that's great
if 600 of them are new players that drop this weekend and never return without spending any money then your nubers are skewed.
If 300 of the remaining drop solo
and
only 100 of the remaining drop group that's a better number
but
if that 300 spend an average of $5/each per month
and
the 100 spend an average of $50/each per month

which ones holds more sway in a company's decision about the game? The number of player in a certain population aren't the ONLY thing to consider when you want to start delving into the statistical data. Just another example of why "84%" is NOT an accurate description of a lot of things

[Daekar]

Make no mistake, if it CAN be exploited, it will. This has been demonstrated MANY times by the players of this game.

[Roadbeer]

Daekar, on 12 March 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Make no mistake, if it CAN be exploited, it will. This has been demonstrated MANY times by the players of this every game ever made.

Fixed

So, what is it that groups can exploit, and what are the ramifications of that?

I've only ever seen that "Evil Premade Boogeymen will exploit it" but I've never seen anyone offer what exactly is being exploited and the long term effects of it are.

[FupDup]

Daekar, on 12 March 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

Make no mistake, if it CAN be exploited, it will. This has been demonstrated MANY times by the players of this game entirety of the human race.

Roadbeer, on 12 March 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Fixed

Double fixed.

[Bhael Fire]

Roadbeer, on 12 March 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

So, what is it that groups can exploit, and what are the ramifications of that?

Now, I'm not sure how feasible this exploit would be to use to any significant effect, but it's an exploit nonetheless...and something to be aware of...

...but the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "rewards for private matches" is players creating alt "trash" accounts; i.e., accounts created to be used as punching bags and crash test dummies. Basically, accounts that the payer doesn't care about.

The initial concern is that If they allowed rewards in premium private matches — i..e. matches where as few as 2 players can launch into — it could be exploited fairly easily.

However, in the free private matches, where players do not have control over the options and must play 12v12, it's a little less of a concern. For the solo player (and to some extent smaller groups), it would be a fairly lengthy and annoying process to create 23 additional trash accounts and try to reap any benefit from exploiting a private 12v12 match. The amount of time and effort just wouldn't be worth it. Also, many players do not have access to 23 additional computers to play the game from by themselves.

That said, a league of 24 players or more could ostensibly create a trash account each and take turns "padding" up a few players at a time with c-bills, xp, and stats. That is, one team launches into the match using their trash accounts, then the other team lets one of their players using their "good" account kill them all. This would yield ridiculous amounts of c-bills and xp within just a few hours of play..not to mention pad that player's KDR beyond the stratosphere. Right now, this can be done in the 12-man queue, but because it's public there's a chance you might not get matched with your cohorts (however unlikely that may be in the public 12-mans).

So again, not sure how much a problem this would present or if PGI even cares if it's done, but the potential for exploiting is there.

[Sandpit]

Bhael Fire, on 12 March 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Now, I'm not sure how feasible this exploit would be to use to any significant effect, but it's an exploit nonetheless...and something to be aware of...

...but the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "rewards for private matches" is players creating alt "trash" accounts; i.e., accounts created to be used as punching bags and crash test dummies. Basically, accounts that the payer doesn't care about.

The initial concern is that If they allowed rewards in premium private matches — i..e. matches where as few as 2 players can launch into — it could be exploited fairly easily.

However, in the free private matches, where players do not have control over the options and must play 12v12, it's a little less of a concern. For the solo player (and to some extent smaller groups), it would be a fairly lengthy and annoying process to create 23 additional trash accounts and try to reap any benefit from exploiting a private 12v12 match. The amount of time and effort just wouldn't be worth it. Also, many players do not have access to 23 additional computers to play the game from by themselves.

That said, a league of 24 players or more could ostensibly create a trash account each and take turns "padding" up a few players at a time with c-bills, xp, and stats. That is, one team launches into the match using their trash accounts, then the other team lets one of their players using their "good" account kill them all. This would yield ridiculous amounts of c-bills and xp within just a few hours of play..not to mention pad that player's KDR beyond the stratosphere. Right now, this can be done in the 12-man queue, but because it's public there's a chance you might not get matched with your cohorts (however unlikely that may be in the public 12-mans).

So again, not sure how much a problem this would present or if PGI even cares if it's done, but the potential for exploiting is there.

only allowing one account per player solves that problem entirely

[Bhael Fire]

Sandpit, on 12 March 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

only allowing one account per player solves that problem entirely

Yeah, but also would anger a bunch of legit players that use alt accounts to run solo or grouped (or vice versa). Especially ones that have dunked a lot of money into those alt accounts.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 12 March 2014 - 04:56 PM.

[Sandpit]

Bhael Fire, on 12 March 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

Yeah, but also would anger a bunch of legit players that use alt accounts to run solo or grouped (or vice versa). Especially ones that have dunked a lot of money into those alt accounts.

Just like not letting players who group drop group up in groups larger than 4 being a "temporary" thing and players that dropped a lot of money into those accounts? 6 of one, half a dozen of another...

They could easily refund purchases in the form of MC and premium time to the main account. Or they could force players who have alt accounts to keep them in the same faction. You can't have one account in one faction and another in a different faction.

[Roadbeer]

Bhael Fire, on 12 March 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Exploitation example

Ok, so... you have a twinked account that has it's FOTM a couple weeks sooner than going through the standard grind.
How does this effect ANYONE else in the game?

You know what, let me extend that out a little further, say someone does that, and also participates in events that garner things like the champion Cent and the extra mechbay(s) then they SELL the account.

Horrible right?

Or is it? Because now you have someone who has proven that they're willing to spend money on the game, someone who is, more likely to say... purchase MC... that seems like a win/win for everyone if you ask me.

Yeah, I know, gold farming is somewhat frowned upon... but it happens EVERY day, and aside from annoying spam in some MMOs, I don't think I've ever seen it negatively effect me in... ever.

But this is the reason I should be kept from being able to group with more than 3 of my friends, or be prevented from earning rewards when I do?

Edited by Roadbeer, 12 March 2014 - 05:02 PM.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 12 March 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

only allowing one account per player solves that problem entirely

This can be problematic if two people play the game in the same location (like husband and wife).

Just saying.

Yes, this camo makes my mech's rear look big.