47 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Winterburn, on 11 June 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

I beg to differ. Any SRM-brawler needs Artemis unless it's a Huggin/Oxide that attacks at pointblank range. Attacking anything at 200 m without Artemis even from SRM4 is largely a waste of ammo.

As for putting SRM 6 in place of SRM 4, the damage differe to a single component is largely negligible, while recycling time and heat favours SRM 4.

While I understand where you're coming from. For the tonnage, and slots, the impact artemis has on SRM4s is virtually negligible. SRM 4 already have one of the tighter groupings possible (only grouping that's better is SRM2s), and they need to reach 300 meters for their spread to get close to that of an SRM6. SRM6s on the other hand have a big spread, right off the bat, it starts huge, and keeps getting bigger as they travel. So Artemis on them, for the tonnage, and slots, is usually worth it.

That's the reasoning behind my statements. For the tonnage and slots, Artemis on SRM4s, and 2s is worthless. Especially when instead, you can just put more ammo, to compensate for more than 2.5 times the damage you'd get from Artemis on those smaller launchers.

Also remember, if the pilot is using SRM4s, and 2s instead of 6s. That means they are probably starved for tonnage, and slots to begin with. No use restricting them even more by telling them they should add artemis on top of that.

These are guidelines, and people can adjust depending on their needs.

Quoting the rule directly below that one:

Quote

10- Last, but most important. Pay attention to your own (or your client, if you are building for some else) piloting quirks, and the quirks of the mech in question (for example: Centurions don't need max armor on the empty left arm). So doctor the build to fit them better. Meta builds don't mean a thing if you can't use them effectively (or more accurately, PROPERLY).

The 10th rule cannot be emphasized hard enough as it is all-encompassing. For every rule from 1-9 there will be exceptions. Those exceptions exist and they are rule 10.

[Scar Glamour]

I did not mean to imply that it is a bad advice. I agree on all points, but SRM bit needs a bit more detail, since there's plenty of nuance in how you use it.

When weight is an issue and you only have enough tonnage for 10-20 volleys (like on Centurion AH or Jenner Oxide) Artemis is a waste of space I agree.

But when you pilot an Atlas-S taking ASRM6 or SRM4 instead of ASRM4 means that you are either running hotter and with lower ammo capacity or that you are wildly inaccurate compared to your ballistic weapon, so concentrating fire on a single component of an enemy mech is nearly impossible. You can cram more ammo without Artemis, but it is useless if your enemy can put you down faster.

[IraqiWalker]

Winterburn, on 12 June 2015 - 05:25 AM, said:

I did not mean to imply that it is a bad advice. I agree on all points, but SRM bit needs a bit more detail, since there's plenty of nuance in how you use it.

When weight is an issue and you only have enough tonnage for 10-20 volleys (like on Centurion AH or Jenner Oxide) Artemis is a waste of space I agree.

But when you pilot an Atlas-S taking ASRM6 or SRM4 instead of ASRM4 means that you are either running hotter and with lower ammo capacity or that you are wildly inaccurate compared to your ballistic weapon, so concentrating fire on a single component of an enemy mech is nearly impossible. You can cram more ammo without Artemis, but it is useless if your enemy can put you down faster.

I agree with you on all of that.

It's why Rule 10 exists. The 9 rules above it are the general approach. Any deviation, or tweaking will fall under rule 10. In fact, your post is a great example of Rule 10.


EDIT: Also, to be specific, this is a guide on building the mechs. Piloting them can be done differently

Edited by IraqiWalker, 12 June 2015 - 11:38 AM.

[Canefire]

Thanks for the tips IraqiWalker...as well as all the help in TS today. You are a great resource for newbies like me.

[Red Shrike]

Some of them sound useful, like 1, 4, 5 and 8.

But I disagree with 3 and 10.
I don't group weapons based on their location. I group weapons based on their type. And as far as quirks go, I mount the weapons I want, when I want them. I will not let myself get tied down by quirks.

[IraqiWalker]

Timberwolf581, on 23 September 2015 - 11:41 PM, said:

Some of them sound useful, like 1, 4, 5 and 8.

But I disagree with 3 and 10.
I don't group weapons based on their location. I group weapons based on their type. And as far as quirks go, I mount the weapons I want, when I want them. I will not let myself get tied down by quirks.

See rule 10. It's all encompassing, it does include (build to what the pilot likes).

Also, mech quirks in this regard was more about it's design, than anything else (Will need to update phrasing since this guide was written before quirks were added. Thanks for highlighting that.). For example, I brought up the Centurion, since the shield arm doesn't need max armor. That is a design quirk, that allows you to not run max armor on the arm, while running max armor everywhere else.

Rule 10 still covers everything else you brought up. I'll just need to update the phrasing to account for mechs having actual quirks now.

[Tesunie]

IraqiWalker, on 23 September 2015 - 11:48 PM, said:

See rule 10. It's all encompassing, it does include (build to what the pilot likes).

I always liked rule 10. It's my favorite rule out of them all.

[stealthraccoon]

My favorite SHS build

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fccb80288316cf1[/smurfy]

Great information here, your efforts are appreciated!

[Tesunie]

stealthraccoon, on 24 September 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

My favorite SHS build

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fccb80288316cf1[/smurfy]

Great information here, your efforts are appreciated!

Nasty sting there for a bug. However, don't let anyone so much as look at you.

[IraqiWalker]

stealthraccoon, on 24 September 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

My favorite SHS build

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fccb80288316cf1[/smurfy]

Great information here, your efforts are appreciated!

Seems like someone enjoys waddling on the razor's edge

[Chados]

I'd add the UrbanMech to those that do well with SHS depending on the build. A classic single AC10/SL or even ML build generates very little heat. But I tried an AC2/ER PPC combo...and wow. Shutdown for heat pretty fast!

[Red Shrike]

IraqiWalker, on 23 September 2015 - 11:48 PM, said:

See rule 10. It's all encompassing, it does include (build to what the pilot likes).

Rule 10 still covers everything else you brought up. I'll just need to update the phrasing to account for mechs having actual quirks now.

Hmm, so far I've never really applied rule 10. At all.

Can you direct me to a list of these design quirks? I'm curious.

[IraqiWalker]

Timberwolf581, on 28 September 2015 - 04:02 AM, said:

Hmm, so far I've never really applied rule 10. At all.

Can you direct me to a list of these design quirks? I'm curious.

I might have to make a list, but that would be a very long one.

For example, most chicken walkers (Locust, Cicada, Raven, Stalker, and Catapult), tend to have very tiny ears (the catapult is the only exception, with those dumbo ears), that can't be used for shielding side shots. So if you need to strip half a ton or a full ton of ammo, but have ammo in your legs, the ears would be a good place to start from.

Another example would be the hitboxes, the Catapult and Stalker are two famous opposites. The Catapult has a HUGE CT hitbox, and really tiny ST hitboxes, that means you should always go XL engine when you can. In contrast, the Stalker has a very tiny CT hitbox, and huge ST hitboxes, meaning that a STD engine is always the better choice. Especially when you factor in that the Stalker has a small engine cap, so it can afford to run it's bigger STD engine.

I think I'll reword "quirks" to "traits"

The centurion has a shield arm. It's left arm, so you can easily drop the armor there, to save up tonnage, without losing much. I personally (pilot taste) like to run it with max armor on the shield arm, because I want my shield to last as much as possible. Others don't mind losing the shield arm.

Now if you know that the pilot likes long range poking, instead of brawling, then the legs can afford to lose some armor, instead of the arms. You should also up the rear armor a bit more than normal, especially if they don't have Seismic Sensor, to account for a light mech backstabbing them for crazy damage.

The Jager mech has it's own two funny traits: minuscule arms, and XL friendly hitboxes. S running them with XLs, and shaving armor off the arms are both valid things to do when building them, because you can bet your money I will go for the leg on a jager, FAST. at least 2 tons of ammo waiting to cook off in there.

Jump Jetting brawler, like the Victor, and Shadowhawk tend to get their legs damaged extensively, so you need max armor on them. On the other hand, you can sacrifice some rear armor for that, and make sure they have at least a shield arm, and use that to shave what weight you couldn't shave off rear armor.

This is basically what I meant by "mech quirks" at the time.

I hope this post was helpful, and if you have further questions/objections/criticism/lol wut?/counters, feel free to fire away.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 28 September 2015 - 10:57 AM.

[Red Shrike]

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

I might have to make a list, but that would be a very long one.

For example, most chicken walkers (Locust, Cicada, Raven, Stalker, and Catapult), tend to have very tiny ears (the catapult is the only exception, with those dumbo ears), that can't be used for shielding side shots. So if you need to strip half a ton or a full ton of ammo, but have ammo in your legs, the ears would be a good place to start from.

The only place I really ever strip armor from is the legs. Except for lights, they need that leg armor. Nor do I do a lot of shielding.

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

Another example would be the hitboxes, the Catapult and Stalker are two famous opposites. The Catapult has a HUGE CT hitbox, and really tiny ST hitboxes, that means you should always go XL engine when you can. In contrast, the Stalker has a very tiny CT hitbox, and huge ST hitboxes, meaning that a STD engine is always the better choice. Especially when you factor in that the Stalker has a small engine cap, so it can afford to run it's bigger STD engine.

I don't know a lot about hitboxes, nor do I seem to care.
I've picked up a lot about STD engines and hitboxes, but at the end of the day, if I need the speed or weight savings, I'll get myself an XL engine. Hitboxes be damned.

Nor do I own a Catapult or Stalker.

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

The centurion has a shield arm. It's left arm, so you can easily drop the armor there, to save up tonnage, without losing much. I personally (pilot taste) like to run it with max armor on the shield arm, because I want my shield to last as much as possible. Others don't mind losing the shield arm.

But with the whole shielding bussiness, isn't it better to keep the armor? Then again, I don't own a Centurion.
Personally, I always make sure the amount of armor is symmetrical.

I don't like losing any component, even if it doesn't have any hardpoints.

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

Now if you know that the pilot likes long range poking, instead of brawling, then the legs can afford to lose some armor, instead of the arms. You should also up the rear armor a bit more than normal, especially if they don't have Seismic Sensor, to account for a light mech backstabbing them for crazy damage.

I don't have seismic sensor, nor do I see any need for it. It requires your mech to stand still. I don't like standing still.
And I do believe the module costs 3 mil C-Bills. I don't have 3 mil lying around.

I prefer to go 70% front armor 30% rear armor. Give or take a few.

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

Jump Jetting brawler, like the Victor, and Shadowhawk tend to get their legs damaged extensively, so you need max armor on them. On the other hand, you can sacrifice some rear armor for that, and make sure they have at least a shield arm, and use that to shave what weight you couldn't shave off rear armor.

My only Shadowhawk is mostly a support mech. I stripped most of the jumpjets for the weight, leaving one for soft landings. Needed the weight to shoehorn two AC/5 in there. And enough ammo to last the entire match.

I suck at shielding and therefore never use that tactic.

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

I hope this post was helpful, and if you have further questions/objections/criticism/lol wut?/counters, feel free to fire away.

Kinda. I don't suppose you got pointers on Timber Wolves, Mad Dogs, Battlemasters and/or an Atlas?

[IraqiWalker]

Timberwolf581, on 28 September 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

Kinda. I don't suppose you got pointers on Timber Wolves, Mad Dogs, Battlemasters and/or an Atlas?

These were all just examples, and they are still subject to rule 10 (design how the pilot likes). Keep in mind that a sniping mech will be standing still very frequently, especially when it ducks behind cover.

I'm not commanding you to do those things, but these are things that should be taken into account.

One thing I will emphasize is that you NEED to learn the hitboxes of mechs. That will help you with your aim immensely, and also teach you how to shield in that mech. Shielding is necessary, as it allows you to last longer in a fight.

I recommend checking Tamerlin's Hitbox Localization thread. It is invaluable, and will show you the vulnerable spots on every mech listed.

For example, you brought up the Maddog. That mech has notoriously bad ST hitboxes, and arms that can't shield at all. This means if you want to squeeze the most out of the mech, you should really front load the ST armor.


The Timberwolf on the other hand, has fantastic rear hitboxes, so having 6 or so points of armor on the rear, is just fine. It's also got stalker like hitboxes, meaning the CT is easier to protect (more armor should get front loaded for STs), and the arms can somewhat shield.

The Battlemaster for example can afford to use an XL engine, it's got good hitboxes that can handle it. In fact, I run my 1S with 4xASRM6s, and 4MLs, with an XL 400.

All omni mechs in general have 2 things in common: they mainly knuckle drag (their arm hardpoints are low proportional to the mech), and the only choice that really matters is "what weapons do I want to run?"

The biggest factor to take into account when working on an omni mech is the engine (speed will dictate your role to a degree), and hitboxes.

[Red Shrike]

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

These were all just examples, and they are still subject to rule 10 (design how the pilot likes). Keep in mind that a sniping mech will be standing still very frequently, especially when it ducks behind cover.

Maybe. But as far as I can remember, I don't stand still a lot. Sometimes I do, but not always.

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

One thing I will emphasize is that you NEED to learn the hitboxes of mechs. That will help you with your aim immensely, and also teach you how to shield in that mech. Shielding is necessary, as it allows you to last longer in a fight.

I recommend checking Tamerlin's Hitbox Localization thread. It is invaluable, and will show you the vulnerable spots on every mech listed.

I always aim center mass.Unless I want to take out specific components. And that thread kinda tells me that I just have to keep hitting center mass.

Biggest problem I have with shielding is that I don't know where the incoming fire is coming from, and therefore I can't really shield effectively. There's the direction the fire is coming from (front, side or rear) , but that isn't very specific. And the arms never really cooperate.

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

For example, you brought up the Maddog. That mech has notoriously bad ST hitboxes, and arms that can't shield at all. This means if you want to squeeze the most out of the mech, you should really front load the ST armor.

I already do. Any more and the rear will end up unarmored. (Which is bad in my opinion)

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

The Timberwolf on the other hand, has fantastic rear hitboxes, so having 6 or so points of armor on the rear, is just fine. It's also got stalker like hitboxes, meaning the CT is easier to protect (more armor should get front loaded for STs), and the arms can somewhat shield.

I still lose my CT more often than both my STs combined. I mean, I got plenty of armor on my mad kitty, but with the whole TTK and meta, even mediums wipe the floor with him.

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

The Battlemaster for example can afford to use an XL engine, it's got good hitboxes that can handle it. In fact, I run my 1S with 4xASRM6s, and 4MLs, with an XL 400.

I run my 1G with 1xPPC, 6xMLas, 1xSRM 6 and an STD 340. Call me a sucker for lore loadouts.

IraqiWalker, on 28 September 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

All omni mechs in general have 2 things in common: they mainly knuckle drag (their arm hardpoints are low proportional to the mech), and the only choice that really matters is "what weapons do I want to run?"

The biggest factor to take into account when working on an omni mech is the engine (speed will dictate your role to a degree), and hitboxes.

All my Clan mechs run at 81 kph, so that's not much of a difference, and the hitboxes, well. I can't dictate where the enemy will hit me. If I can, I certainly don't know how.

As far as the weapons go, like I said before, I'm a sucker for lore loadouts.

Edited by Timberwolf581, 28 September 2015 - 11:19 PM.

[Rushin Roulette]

IraqiWalker, on 03 March 2014 - 02:41 AM, said:

6- Crit padding. If you have precious items and weapons in one part of your mech that you would rather not lose to crit hits from things like MGs, throw other things next to them. If all you have is your Gauss Rifle in your side torso with nothing else, then every crit on that side torso is guaranteed to hit the rifle and kill you sooner. On the other hand, if you threw a couple of other items in there (extra crit slots) now your rifle has a less of a chance of getting hit. That's a huge improvement for your life expectancy. Same thing applies to ammo in the Side Torso.

You might want to add Gaus Amunition into this section as the only exception for amunition. Gauss is the only ammo which can not explode, so it can be used to pad the important equipment.

It is also generally always unsefull to have the Ammo for a weapon on the same side as the weapon, as you are not left with either a useless weapon or useless ammo if one side is destroyed (one newb mistake I made back in the closed Beta). Even if you have an LRM launcher (does not explode) and a Gauss (does Explode) it is not a good idea to place the explodable Gauss with the LRM ammo on one side with Case and the non exploding LRM launcher and Gauss ammo on the other side. If eitehr side is destroyed, you have lost the use of both weapons.

[Red Shrike]

I always stick my ammo in the same spot as my weapon. (The only exception is when there are not enough slots to fit the ammo) One is useless without the other, so I might as well lose them both at the same time.

Edited by Timberwolf581, 29 September 2015 - 01:17 AM.

[Tesunie]

Timberwolf581, on 28 September 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

...and the hitboxes, well. I can't dictate where the enemy will hit me. If I can, I certainly don't know how.

You can't dictate where your opponents hit, but you can help "guide" them to hitting different spots. Twist your torso when you are under fire and you aren't actively shooting back. If your left side is damaged, show them your right side by twisting the left away. This makes it more likely that they will hit your right side instead of your left side. Have nothing of value on your left side though? Twist left then to protect your valuable weapons as the enemy will have more of your left torso to be able to hit.

It isn't a perfect dictation on where your opponent is going to hit, but it does help shift the damage they are sending your way around.


There are some mechs, such as the Centurion, that has a "shield" shaped arm. If you can, you are actually able to press control (enter free view, which unlocks your arm from your torso crosshairs, but also makes it so your torso wont move with your mouse), face your shield arm at your opponent, and then aim with your arm and shoot around your own shield. (Not easy to do.)

[IraqiWalker]

Tesunie, on 29 September 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

There are some mechs, such as the Centurion, that has a "shield" shaped arm. If you can, you are actually able to press control (enter free view, which unlocks your arm from your torso crosshairs, but also makes it so your torso wont move with your mouse), face your shield arm at your opponent, and then aim with your arm and shoot around your own shield. (Not easy to do.)

Ah, the old school centurion charge. easily doable with the YLW, and AH, since for both of those, you aim with your torso, while your shield arm is controlled for protection.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 30 September 2015 - 01:07 AM.