115 replies to this topic

[LoPanShui]

I wanted to make sure that I was giving them every advantage and the benefit of the doubt in all situations. I'm sure that had the enemy not had fast movers able to swarm around his flanks the Lancea would have been able to maintain a sustained firing line on all approaching enemy forces, but flanking with fast units is the very basest strategy any competent commander would take. Forcing a portion of the Lancea to divert themselves to guarding the flanks against enemies that couldn't be properly targeted with their artillery proved to be their downfall.

All artillery units, no matter the time period or setting, will always require skirmishing units in order to maintain their rate of fire with their main armament, otherwise they get flanked and have to divert themselves to self defense, sacrificing their primary method of fire.

[Blood Rose]

Very true LoPan.

The sad fact is that the Lancea isnt too bad as a Mech, provided it has one or two alterations, its a great unit to have one or two of in a company. Its just Paintedwolfs idea of deploying battalions of them that makes them bad.

You also left out the heat trolling method-IE numbers of fast light Mechs and units armed with Plasma rifles, Flamers and Inferno LRM/SRM missiles. Given his heat levels from firing this would force his Mechs into overheating faster than can be imagined.

[PaintedWolf]

Can you name a Battalion of any Mech design that you think can take a fully defended Castle Brian?

I just finished reading Liberation of Terra 2. Even the SLDF had trouble with these. If you need to invoke things like Warships and Castle Brians to counter my mech, then pardon me if I find your objections less then compelling.

"OMG your Aerospace Squadron sucks because I can bring like 10 warships in and blow them up!!"

Also you guys keep ignoring my points about area saturation and force multiplier effects. The reason you need these in numbers is so you can saturate an area with the Arrow 4s. In small numbers this unit is next to worthless because it will not hit what it is aiming at. The fact that you can't even grasp that basic point makes me question your reasoning.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 28 January 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[Metus regem]

PaintedWolf, on 28 January 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Can you name a Battalion of any Mech design that you think can take a fully defended Castle Brian?

I just finished reading Liberation of Terra 2. Even the SLDF had trouble with these. If you need to invoke things like Warships and Castle Brians to counter my mech, then pardon me if I find your objections less then compelling.

"OMG your Aerospace Squadron sucks because I can bring like 10 warships in and blow them up!!"

Also you guys keep ignoring my points about area saturation and force multiplier effects. The reason you need these in numbers is so you can saturate an area with the Arrow 4s. In small numbers this unit is next to worthless because it will not hit what it is aiming at. The fact that you can't even grasp that basic point makes me question your reasoning.

Okay, so I just finished runing the mech you posted on the first page (1 company's worth), against a binary of standard Piranha battle mechs... Mind you the Piranha's all were 2/3 pilots to make up a BV differance, it was on a 68X60 map, with both sides in oppiste corners...

What happend was the Piranah's ran for 3 turns, pulling close to 18 hexes of movment every turn, till they got ontop of the Lancea's and once they were there, the Lancea's were torn apart, the 4/5 pilots in the Lancea's just couldn't get the numbers to work in their favours, even with the TC's and MPL's at short range, taking 4 off of the to hit numbers, the Piranha's were still generating 12/13 to hit numbers against them, due to movement, or staying out of the fireing arcs of your Lancea.

I really think the Lancea needs an escort to be more effective, or not not have a fast mover like the Piranha come after it.

[PaintedWolf]

Metus regem, on 28 January 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

Okay, so I just finished runing the mech you posted on the first page (1 company's worth), against a binary of standard Piranha battle mechs... Mind you the Piranha's all were 2/3 pilots to make up a BV differance, it was on a 68X60 map, with both sides in oppiste corners...

What happend was the Piranah's ran for 3 turns, pulling close to 18 hexes of movment every turn, till they got ontop of the Lancea's and once they were there, the Lancea's were torn apart, the 4/5 pilots in the Lancea's just couldn't get the numbers to work in their favours, even with the TC's and MPL's at short range, taking 4 off of the to hit numbers, the Piranha's were still generating 12/13 to hit numbers against them, due to movement, or staying out of the fireing arcs of your Lancea.

I really think the Lancea needs an escort to be more effective, or not not have a fast mover like the Piranha come after it.

You ran this game within 20 minutes of me making my last post? That sounds incredible on MegaMek. I mean even a 5 vs 5 game for me can take 30 minutes to an hour, and the program slows to a crawl at company level. You must have some RTS version of the Megamek program.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 28 January 2015 - 11:34 AM.

[Metus regem]

PaintedWolf, on 28 January 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

You ran this game within 20 minutes of me making my last post? That sounds incredible on MegaMek. I mean even a 5 vs 5 game for me can take 30 minutes to an hour, and the program slows to a crawl at company level. You must have some RTS version of the Megamek program.

I ran it on a very, very fast computer.... and I ran it about 40 minuets ago, and it took about 20 miuntes to run it. I jsut wanted to read over the results a few times. And the Lancea's usually died to ammo explosions of the Arrow IV missiles... the Piranha's put out enough possible crits with 12 machine guns, that once armour is open there is a good chance that they will strike the ammo of the Arrow IV.

Edited by Metus regem, 28 January 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Metus regem, on 28 January 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

I ran it on a very, very fast computer.... and I ran it about 40 minuets ago, and it took about 20 miuntes to run it. I jsut wanted to read over the results a few times. And the Lancea's usually died to ammo explosions of the Arrow IV missiles... the Piranha's put out enough possible crits with 12 machine guns, that once armour is open there is a good chance that they will strike the ammo of the Arrow IV.

Weird, cause I made my last reply at 10:45 and you posted a response to that at 11:25. So you must have ran this game before I made my last reply right?

Edited by PaintedWolf, 28 January 2015 - 11:41 AM.

[Metus regem]

PaintedWolf, on 28 January 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

Weird, cause I made my last reply at 10:45 and you posted a response to that at 11:25. So you must have ran this game before I made my last reply right?

Yup... slow day at work, and an extreamly fast laptop...

[PaintedWolf]

Have any transcripts by chance?

[Metus regem]

PaintedWolf, on 28 January 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

Have any transcripts by chance?

I didn't save them, but the battle took about 8 turns, the funnest round was the second to last one, there was an ammo explsion that started a chain reaction and a critical meltdown, that caused 4 other mechs to go into core meltdowns and ammo explosions, 5 mechs dead from one ammo explsion, it was pretty funny.

[PaintedWolf]

Metus regem, on 28 January 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

I didn't save them, but the battle took about 8 turns, the funnest round was the second to last one, there was an ammo explsion that started a chain reaction and a critical meltdown, that caused 4 other mechs to go into core meltdowns and ammo explosions, 5 mechs dead from one ammo explsion, it was pretty funny.

Your lights killed 12 Hardened Armored Assault Mechs in 8 turns?!

[Metus regem]

PaintedWolf, on 28 January 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

Your lights killed 12 Hardened Armored Assault Mechs in 8 turns?!

Yup, like I said, Ammo explosions against IS mechs with XL engines, and the Piranha is a crit seaking monkey.

I should point out, only 2 Piranha's lived though, the rest died.

Edited by Metus regem, 28 January 2015 - 12:02 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

Metus regem, on 28 January 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

here was an ammo explsion that started a chain reaction and a critical meltdown, that caused 4 other mechs to go into core meltdowns and ammo explosions, 5 mechs dead from one ammo explsion, it was pretty funny.

What do you mean by "that caused 4 other mechs to go into core meltdowns and ammo explosions" ?

[Strum Wealh]

PaintedWolf, on 28 January 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

What do you mean by "that caused 4 other mechs to go into core meltdowns and ammo explosions"?

The advanced rules for Engine explosions & ammo explosions (found on pages 77-78 of Tactical Operations) allow those events to have AOE effects.

For Engine explosions, "any units in adjacent hexes take damage equal to the engine’s rating divided by 10 (rounded to the nearest whole number; round .5 down)", "units 2 hexes away take damage equal to the engine’s rating divided by 20", and "units 3 hexes away take damage equal to the engine’s rating divided by 40".

For ammo explosions, "determine the total amount of damage caused by the detonation" and "divide this amount by 10 (round down) and apply it as an area-effect attack in the destroyed unit’s hex, with all units in adjacent hexes taking half this damage (round down)".

So, it's entirely possible that a domino-effect/chain-reaction scenario could have happened, where the AOE effect of an Engine explosion (what Metus might have meant by a "core meltdown") or an ammo explosion from one Lancea might have caused a sympathetic detonation (e.g. another Engine or ammo explosion) in an adjacent damaged Lancea, which may have caused another sympathetic detonation in a third damaged Lancea adjacent to the second, and so on.

[PaintedWolf]

Strum Wealh, on 28 January 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

The advanced rules for Engine explosions & ammo explosions (found on pages 77-78 of Tactical Operations) allow those events to have AOE effects.

For Engine explosions, "any units in adjacent hexes take damage equal to the engine’s rating divided by 10 (rounded to the nearest whole number; round .5 down)", "units 2 hexes away take damage equal to the engine’s rating divided by 20", and "units 3 hexes away take damage equal to the engine’s rating divided by 40".

For ammo explosions, "determine the total amount of damage caused by the detonation" and "divide this amount by 10 (round down) and apply it as an area-effect attack in the destroyed unit’s hex, with all units in adjacent hexes taking half this damage (round down)".

So, it's entirely possible that a domino-effect/chain-reaction scenario could have happened, where the AOE effect of an Engine explosion (what Metus might have meant by a "core meltdown") or an ammo explosion from one Lancea might have caused a sympathetic detonation (e.g. another Engine or ammo explosion) in an adjacent damaged Lancea, which may have caused another sympathetic detonation in a third damaged Lancea adjacent to the second, and so on.

http://mwomercs.com/...ctor-explosion/

Quote

In TT (oh god he mentioned TT!) you had to roll for critical hits on all 6 engine crits in a single turn for a 'Mech to explode. I've seen it happen maybe 3 times ever. 1 in 625 is still very high.

Technically it is possible I suppose.

[Strum Wealh]

PaintedWolf, on 28 January 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...ctor-explosion/

Technically it is possible I suppose.

That quoted statement (" you had to roll for critical hits on all 6 engine crits in a single turn for a 'Mech to explode") is wrong.

Per page 78 of Tactical Operations: "When the fusion engine of a ‘Mech takes four or more critical hits in the same phase, roll 2D6. On a result of 10 or higher, the engine explodes".

One only has to score 4 critical hits on an Engine in a single turn (easily done with a Piranha's 12 MGs to a breached front or rear CT location) & roll a 10 or higher (that is, a result of 10, 11, or 12) on a 2D6 roll (a likelihood of 27.76% (see here and here) - that is, better than one-in-four odds) to make a Fusion Engine explode.

[Metus regem]

Like I said, the Piranha is a crit machine. The other rules that were in play, were large explosions damaging nearby units, as well as rapid firing machine guns, yes they burn through ammo like my toddler through oranges, but it makes them a real threat to armour.

[PaintedWolf]

I'm thinking this debate may be near over for any thinking person. Not only are people making up simulation challenges now, making highly improbable claims like Light Mechs with Machine Guns took down 100 ton Assaults with Hardened Armor, Targeting Computers, Double Heat Sinks and Clan ER PPCs from a starting distance of 60 Hexes away initially, due to "crit machine" with Machine Guns.

Okay, so why then does the person who ran this amazing simulation, "on a really fast computer at work during a slow day" This person did not save transcripts. Before we proceed any further, would Metus regem be willing to give us a transcript of another run? Pardon me if I am skeptical, but it seems like 12 100 Ton-Assault Mechs, would be able to focus down several light Mechs at close range pretty easily with Clan ER PPCs.

Likewise even for all 12 Machine Guns, the Piranna is not really that much of a crit seeker. A chance for a crit or head hit is more like 1/24. So only every other round would they even get 1 crit or head hit. Unless we have more special rules turned on, in which case I'm gonna start turning on special rules too.

Last, you are still ignoring the area saturation effect of the Arrow 4s. Yes a company of these might not work against lights. Personally I don't even think the Piranna was a good choice. I can think of many better light Mechs. Also your strat left them kind of vulnerable to a counter-strat, even if it did work.

Okay, first, at most it would prove my point of bringing them at Battalion strength. The Arrow 4s are not precise weapons. Even aimed at ground they scatter. The point is so have so much firepower, scatter is not an issue. Aim is irrelevant. For 9 maps. Not hitting Mechs but hitting areas. So one saturates it.

Is Metus Regem really telling me Pirannas survived Arrow 4 saturations?

Likwise in large scale Mech battles, maneuver can become less important then fire power and armor in direct engagement. When we are talking Regiment or Galaxy strength. actual war, the main show and not that hit and run crap used to annoy, battle lines tend to be drawn. This even holds true in modern warfare at the strategic and operational level, in the era of heavily armored infantry and calvarly it held more true. I notice many people play this game like it is modern war, it is not, it is more akin to ancient or medieval war, where, when battle took place, lines were formed. Here the Lancea, with its area effect firepower at maps of range wins out. Area effect firepower, Hardened Armor, TSM, and an ER PPC and ER Large Laser, both Clan linked to a Targeting Computer. Used right that will probably win, even against superior numbers.

This guy wants to say his Light Mechs with machine guns beat Clan-Weapon Equipped 100-Ton Assault Mechs with Hardened Armor, Clan ER PPCs, and Clan Targeting Computers, with lesser numbers, in 8 rounds, fine. Especially when it is elaborated with multiple, improbable fusion explosions taking place, that another player has said he has only seen 3 of during all of his table top games, fine.

Quote

the funnest round was the second to last one, there was an ammo explsion that started a chain reaction and a critical meltdown, that caused 4 other mechs to go into core meltdowns and ammo explosions

Such a dramatic heroic ending to what one would logically expect to be a one-sided slaughter. Of course, getting no actual transcription of this, which could be copy/pasted is so reasonable on this matter.

In short- how about some proof?

The Lancea is named after the Roman weapon that brought peace to many peoples for many ages. I believe this Mech may more then honor its memory.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 28 January 2015 - 09:06 PM.

[Metus regem]

I chose the Piranha, as it is the a good counter, sprinting they can move up to 18 hexes, Arrow IV have a flight time of one full turn, on a big map, that gives the Piranhas a lot of area to cover, as well as a lot of options. I will run the match again, and save the results this time, but my time to do so, is dependant on my work load.

I am not above putting my money where my mouth is, so to speak.

In my opinion of your design, it needs an escort force to be at it's maximum effect.

[Skylarr]

I have been playing TT since the early 90s. I would not say "Fusions" are rare. It is all depends on the situation. My group usually play Company size battles. They do happen ever so often. But, back in the day when we were deploying a Combined Arms Regiment against another CAR (1 Mech Regiment, 2 Tank Regiments and multiple Infantry Regiments with Aero support spearheading invasions). You would see more "Fusions". When these forces clashed and mixed together there was no real strategy other than "Combine and Drop". This was also back when a Mech "Fusioning" did allot of damage.