216 replies to this topic

[Master Maniac]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

This isn't gonna end well for you I think....

I get 5 to 8 kills on average every match. I don't need silly damage-padding crutches like LRMs or artillery. So, yeah, I can say what I say with confidence. If anyone cares to prove me wrong, they are more than welcome to try. My lower K/D comes from grinding with crappy mechs that I don't like or care about so I can elite the few that I do. I also experiment with new builds constantly, and enjoy riding crappy builds for fun.

When it comes to weapons, we need more of them, and a greater variety of them.

I remember when the Gauss charge time was introduced, and there was no end to the crying of people saying they were ruined forever, and useless, and you were crazy for running them. Now we're back to saying they're all powerful and skill-free. It's a joke. It's knee-jerk rabid sensationalism, which I suspect is what drives 80% of this community. Players get obliterated by a gauss-wielding player, and then instantly hop on the forums to complain that anything that counters their super-leet streak build is so OP meta gamebreaking.

I like what they did to the Gauss. It differentiates it from the AC/20, which was badly needed. More variety and a greater difference in functionality and design is what's needed - not some sort of strict adherence to silly board game rules that don't really apply in a real-time setting by any stretch of the imagination.

[Karl Streiger]

i'm still waiting for the overreaction nerf for the AC2.... did try them yesterday for the first time after the CB. You can't be serious can't you?
even lrms need more skill to hit a target, you can fool your self and saying you have to lead your aim. and when you want s
to say this. what about switching advanced zoom off - the only reason Players arn't able to hit a barn is the reason they had advanced zoom.
anyhow the ac2 is point and fire you don't haveto be freedy with ammunition. simple hold the trigger. dps and free ammunition simple help you to achieve good results with out beeing better as a newb.
with 4 ac2 you only need 6sec to the same amount of money as you would get for a kill. taking the weight and crits into account there is no otger weapon that need so few skill.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 05 March 2014 - 10:57 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Want to know the sad thing? The gauss nerf did not kill the dual gauss boating....they are still alive and well in firebrands and anyone driving a muromets. When ppcs got murdered people had to find cooler running weapons to pair with the Hotter PPCs...guess what they used? The recent "rebalancing" to jumpjets will simply multiply the numbers of Poptart dragon slayers and 3D's who were unaffected by the change. The only players who really suffer are guys like me that have to grind the non ac20 models of the victor or Highlander with brawler configs who are forced to use the "inferior" single gauss rifle....

Ive said it before, and ill say it again...I cannot WAIT

WAIT....

WAIIIIIIIT until heavy gauss rifles and UaC20s get here. Can you imagine the tears? If this game survives that long it will be a glorious time indeed...at least until they are nerfed to uselessness...

[Kaeb Odellas]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

I could back up my attitude with *performance,* and invite you to try and prove me wrong.

I can see your performance just fine from your stats. You average just over a kill per round, and die in 71% of your matches. Premium private matches are just around the corner, so something could certainly be arranged...

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

Now, back on topic: the NERF EVERYTHING crowd has yet to provide a single argument more cohesive than "aiming is OP." Precision weapons are not inherently "better" than track weapons, no matter how much they want to whine about them. They refuse to acknowledge player skill as part of the equation, not to mention the difficulty of placing precise shots with a free-roaming reticule with real-time weapon orientation. They refuse to consider the aspects of projectile velocity, target deflection, and trajectory. They just don't exist in their argument. Full stop.

No one is claiming that PPCs and autocannons take no skill to use. Leading a target certainly takes skill. The issue is that laser damage can be easily diffused by a skilled player twisting and turning during the beam duration, whereas front-loaded damage cannot be defended against in the same way.

The best way to defend yourself against such weapons is by minimizing exposure, and it just so happens that the best way to minimize exposure is by using jumpjets. And the best weapon to use with jump jets are PPCs and autocannons.

[Master Maniac]

Karl Streiger, on 05 March 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:

i'm still waiting for the overreaction nerf for the AC2.... did try them yesterday for the first time after the CB. You can't be serious can't you?
even lrms need more skill to hit a target, you can fool your self and saying you have to lead your aim. and when you want s
to say this. what about switching advanced zoom off - the only reason Players arn't able to hit a barn is the reason they had advanced zoom.
anyhow the ac2 is point and fire you don't haveto be freedy with ammunition. simple hold the trigger. with 4 ac2 you only need 6sec to the same amount of money as you would get for a kill. taking the weight and crits into account there is no otger weapon that need so few skill.

Add a recoil mechanic and BOOM - problem solved. And the word "nerf" doesn't even have to be dropped.

Kaeb Odellas, on 05 March 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

I can see your performance just fine from your stats. You average just over a kill per round, and die in 71% of your matches. Premium private matches are just around the corner, so something could certainly be arranged...


- Interjection: Oh bring that the **** on. -


No one is claiming that PPCs and autocannons take no skill to use. Leading a target certainly takes skill. The issue is that laser damage can be easily diffused by a skilled player twisting and turning during the beam duration, whereas front-loaded damage cannot be defended against in the same way.

The best way to defend yourself against such weapons is by minimizing exposure, and it just so happens that the best way to minimize exposure is by using jumpjets. And the best weapon to use with jump jets are PPCs and autocannons.

Or you could just not be an idiot, and avoid walking right into my OMGINSTANTDEATH machine. Try using a little tact. That kind of thing.

Edited by Master Maniac, 05 March 2014 - 11:00 PM.

[Varent]

these forums remind of the old film "12 angry men" sometimes.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Kaeb Odellas, on 05 March 2014 - 10:57 PM, said:

I can see your performance just fine from your stats. You average just over a kill per round, and die in 71% of your matches. Premium private matches are just around the corner, so something could certainly be arranged...





No one is claiming that PPCs and autocannons take no skill to use. Leading a target certainly takes skill. The issue is that laser damage can be easily diffused by a skilled player twisting and turning during the beam duration, whereas front-loaded damage cannot be defended against in the same way.

The best way to defend yourself against such weapons is by minimizing exposure, and it just so happens that the best way to minimize exposure is by using jumpjets. And the best weapon to use with jump jets are PPCs and autocannons.

As long as there is a burst damage weapon, such as an autocannon, or any version of the ppc, and jumpjets, there will be poptarts. No exceptions. you can either remove jumpjets or remove ppcs and autocannons, but poptarts are a part of the game, and here to stay. it is a Viable tactic, albeit boring. If my 3 srm6es on my 733C would properly register thier hits however.....who knows...perhaps brawling would come back? if all the maps werent Wide open and hilly that ENCOURAGED nothing but meta builds, and some city maps with buildings too tall to jump over were introduced that encouraged carrying mixed configs for all ranges instead of the usual ppc ac5 shenanigans, then perhaps the meta would become more for balanced mechs.

[Varent]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

I get 5 to 8 kills on average every match.

Talking numbers never makes you look anything but cocky. Just.... keep it in your pants, as the saying goes. The highest ive ever had is 11, and I even feel dirty for saying that number.

xXBagheeraXx, on 05 March 2014 - 11:02 PM, said:

As long as there is a burst damage weapon, such as an autocannon, or any version of the ppc, and jumpjets, there will be poptarts. No exceptions. you can either remove jumpjets or remove ppcs and autocannons, but poptarts are a part of the game, and here to stay. it is a Viable tactic, albeit boring. If my 3 srm6es on my 733C would properly register thier hits however.....who knows...perhaps brawling would come back? if all the maps werent Wide open and hilly that ENCOURAGED nothing but meta builds, and some city maps with buildings too tall to jump over were introduced that encouraged carrying mixed configs for all ranges instead of the usual ppc ac5 shenanigans, then perhaps the meta would become more for balanced mechs.

Go look at the map section of the forum and comment on my city map post. We need a true city map to counteract alpine

[xXBagheeraXx]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

Talking numbers never makes you look anything but cocky. Just.... keep it in your pants, as the saying goes. The highest ive ever had is 11, and I even feel dirty for saying that number.



Go look at the map section of the forum and comment on my city map post. We need a true city map to counteract alpine

Some of the most memorable fights I have ever had in mw4 mechtech were in city maps...Uac20s...heavy and assault lasers...lbx 20s all flying all over the blasted place in a fiery mess of mechs and ff armor splattering all over the place....it was BEAUTIFUL...xD

I think im gonna go replay mw4 single player now...bb in two days...xD

[Demos]

Khobai, on 04 March 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Obviously the weapons will never be exactly equal. The problem is weapon balance isnt even close. Ideally weapons should be balanced within +/-10% of eachother. At most an LRM 10 should be 10% weaker than a PPC, since both weapons take up the same tonnage and crit slots. But currently the PPC is several magnitudes better. LRMs are crap because they have soft and hard counters (ams/ecm), give a warning theyre about to hit you, and give you plenty of time to dodge them.

And here your logic is not correct. As the LRM generate only 40% of the heat of a PPC, it could be weaker then your 10%...

Edited by Demos, 05 March 2014 - 11:36 PM.

[Master Maniac]

xXBagheeraXx, on 05 March 2014 - 11:07 PM, said:

Some of the most memorable fights I have ever had in mw4 mechtech were in city maps...Uac20s...heavy and assault lasers...lbx 20s all flying all over the blasted place in a fiery mess of mechs and ff armor splattering all over the place....it was BEAUTIFUL...xD

I think im gonna go replay mw4 single player now...bb in two days...xD

Mechwarrior 3 is where it's at. But I guess collisions and knockdowns are too OP, and would get balanced into nothingness in today's market.

[Archon]

No Remorse, on 04 March 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

WAY back in closed beta there was a mech, the loathed and feared master of battlefield, the K2 guass kitty. This is where our story begins.

There were so many people who whined and complained that people could actually aim and hit their target with these guns that PGI eventually relented and nerfed the weapon. This is when PGI took that fateful step into submitting to every whim of their player base if it meant another dollar. This, of course, led to many more dollars lost in the long run.

As an aside, I played A LOT in closed beta. Do you know what my favourite mech to attack was? The K2, I would search them out and kill them before they had a chance to wreak havoc. I did it with another kitty, my "Whoosh" cat, two LRM 15s and four streaks, purpose built to kill K2's. If the K2 was lucky he would have my pods off before I got to him, but usually my LRMS would mess his aim up so badly he couldn't hit me until I was on top of him. So the K2 was far from the invincible machine everyone claims, you just had to use... what's the word, oh, yeah, TACTICS!

So with their new powers, the "Whiners Club" joined forces and began to complain about EVERY weapon in the game which killed them in game at least twice. PGI began its blitz to balance this game, not matter what the cost. Patch after patch was tweak this, re-tweak that, oops that was overboard, reign that in, now this is too powerful, wait, no it wasn't, it wasn't powerful enough. "Statistics, bah, we don't need statistics to balance things. This is a game! Why would we use complex statistical models when we can just ask our cadre of whiners, oh, I mean our player base?"

Then they turned their attention to the chassis, oh boy, hit box hell began. Do I need to talk about all the posts on hit boxes? Hit box here, hit there, hit boxes are everywhere. Now you have problem with hit registration, most likely to the amount of tampering with the hit boxes of every mech!

Breathe... okay I'm good, back to the point.

The results of all this mess is PGI has allocated so much time and resources on "balancing" these issues that they have failed to produce a single new weapon for the IS, and have no clue as to how to balance Clan tech. New chassis come out which drastically over power current mechs. On top of that, the forums are flooded with the over righteous and highly indignant whiners club who feel justified in complaining over everything! That's my job damn it!

If PGI could have stayed focus on developing the game like adding features instead of over balancing the hell out of it, we might have actually had a great game right now. But we got what we got, take it or leave it, I suggest the latter. This as much PGI's fault as it is the "Whiners Club" of course, this also led the the rise of the dreaded "PGI Defenders"

I agree 110%. This game has gotten to the point where just because a weapon is effective (such as the gauss rifle) people whine about it until it's nerfed and neutered, regardless of whether it's supposed to be the most powerful ballistic weapon in the game AND already required plenty of trade-off for its use (possibility of exploding AND heavy weight). They then go down to the next "slightly" effective weapon and start crying for that weapon to be nerfed (autocannons) and continue to whine about "pinpoint damage."

Guess what people, it makes sense that a weapon would be designed to be as accurate and deliver as much damage as possible to a single point, and it's CHALLENGING to aim said weapon, which is the dissadvantage of it being pinpoint; if your target is moving around and you're only hitting one small area on him, it takes some damn skill to get him in the cockpit.

[Varent]

Archon, on 05 March 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

I agree 110%. This game has gotten to the point where just because a weapon is effective (such as the gauss rifle) people whine about it until it's nerfed and neutered, regardless of whether it's supposed to be the most powerful ballistic weapon in the game AND already required plenty of trade-off for its use (possibility of exploding AND heavy weight). They then go down to the next "slightly" effective weapon and start crying for that weapon to be nerfed (autocannons) and continue to whine about "pinpoint damage."

Guess what people, it makes sense that a weapon would be designed to be as accurate and deliver as much damage as possible to a single point, and it's CHALLENGING to aim said weapon, which is the dissadvantage of it being pinpoint; if your target is moving around and you're only hitting one small area on him, it takes some damn skill to get him in the cockpit.

The major issue is they have led people to believe that they will make all classes equal. The high end damage weapons are particularly good against light mechs wich makes them feel unuseful. Ive seen a lot of the rage swing from there and the nerfs flow downwards. The weapon is indeed supposed to be powerful. However the nerfs will probly keep coming until we get CW and thus Role warfare. Hopefully we aren't too nerfed by then or at least they will unnerf things But who knows.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

I get 5 to 8 kills on average every match.

Dude. Buddy. Pal. Lying about the size of your e-peen is kind of ridiculous when you've already shown us all how big it is.

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

I don't need silly damage-padding crutches like LRMs or artillery.

LRMs are crutches now? What game are you playing?

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

So, yeah, I can say what I say with confidence. If anyone cares to prove me wrong, they are more than welcome to try. My lower K/D comes from grinding with crappy mechs that I don't like or care about so I can elite the few that I do. I also experiment with new builds constantly, and enjoy riding crappy builds for fun.

I'm pretty sure everyone experiments with new builds constantly. No one else is claiming that they "average" 5 to 8 kills a game, when they pretty blatantly don't, and when called out on it attributes their weaker stats to "experimentation". Are you spending 80% of your matches in crappy mechs? Because in order for your "I average 5-8 kills per match" claim to even remotely make sense given the numbers you've shown us, that would mean you've got less than a thousand matches with kills, and 4000 where you get completely shut out and kill nothing.

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

I remember when the Gauss charge time was introduced, and there was no end to the crying of people saying they were ruined forever, and useless, and you were crazy for running them. Now we're back to saying they're all powerful and skill-free. It's a joke. It's knee-jerk rabid sensationalism, which I suspect is what drives 80% of this community. Players get obliterated by a gauss-wielding player, and then instantly hop on the forums to complain that anything that counters their super-leet streak build is so OP meta gamebreaking.

Who is complaining about the Gauss being overpowered? They certainly were before the charge mechanic, but no one is seriously arguing that they're OP now.

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 10:54 PM, said:

I like what they did to the Gauss. It differentiates it from the AC/20, which was badly needed. More variety and a greater difference in functionality and design is what's needed - not some sort of strict adherence to silly board game rules that don't really apply in a real-time setting by any stretch of the imagination.

The charge mechanic wasn't a bad move, though they really need to work on adding better indicators for it. To be honest, I'd rather they added the charge mechanic to the PPC instead. You can cram a PPC into just about anything, and most mechs 40 tons and up can carry multiples. Only a handful of mechs can actually dual-Gauss, and all the charge did was diminish the use of Gauss rifles in mixed builds and encourage dual-Gauss builds instead.

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 05 March 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

Dude. Buddy. Pal. Lying about the size of your e-peen is kind of ridiculous when you've already shown us all how big it is.

Damnit Kaeb, you just made me laugh good whiskey all over my shirt

[Lightfoot]

I never ever asked any nerf. I have said the Awesome's hitboxes were too big.

After spending too many hours playing all MW2-MW4 multiplayer I knew pretty quickly that MWO's Mechs were going to be too weak with the 2x recharge on the weapons to support a Battletech-normal based game. Normal is where you don't have Ghost Heat or DHS 1.4 or the Gauss Rifle desynced.

Normal is where players can use group-fire as intended by Battletech, and, group-fire is not called 'mass-alpha' in case you are new to MechWarrior. Mechs fire arrays of weapons, this is normal, correct, TT. It's called "Group-fire", and that's why your weapons can be arranged into 6 fire-groups. It's not Mass-Alpha or an Alpha-Strike even. It's not OP. It's normal.

Mechs can do so much damage and fire so many weapons that the way to balance things if everything is too powerful, is you just make the Mechs tougher and stick to Battletech descriptions of the weapons. You don't sneak in Duke Nukem's Sniper Rifle and call it a Gauss Rifle to block most players from using the Gauss. You don't lock down energy weapons with DHS 1.4 and Ghost Heat. Because when you do that you start painting yourself into a corner where you can't support anything in Battletech. Especially Clan tech. If players can't handle the battles in MWO using Inner Sphere tech they will go berserk once they see even nerfed Clan tech.

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 05 March 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

*lots of good statements... falling on deaf ears*

Don't feed the trolls c.c

[Karl Streiger]

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

these forums remind of the old film "12 angry men" sometimes.

Was that the response - for my AC 2 rant - try harder:

Varent, on 05 March 2014 - 10:31 PM, said:

Lets evaluate this. Carefully. If this is TT we would be taking a roughly 10 second cycle for weapons. Do you really want the base damage for machine guns over 10 seconds? How about the ac2? MechWarrior has... NEVER.... EVER.... done this.

I really love it whe guys are posting such things.

Would everything would have been bad - when you had slower recycle times?
The machine gun like all other weapons in BT does abstract damage - you only take a look at the lore:
those machine guns in Mechs - range from typical 0.5 cal to 20mm gattling guns.... do you really whant to say that those guns have the same ability to hurt things?
What about range?
99% of all players that came to TT... are only seeing armor points and damage points.
Hardly anybody is able to see behind those facts.... a 0.5 cal with a range of 90m.
But if you read some of the newer RuleBooks more carefully - like "Time of War" RPG - > you see that there is an statement: the given range means that at this range there is a moderate chance - that your weapon will damage your target.
TADA:
Damage Drop Off...not range - a 0.5 cal machine gun bullet is more than capable of hitting a Atlas size target at 2000m.

same for the 10second cylce time.... its abstract - you have no numbers for the shots fired.
The Solaris Duell rules made it a little bit - painfull, but anyhow - regarding the first edition of games - there was a reason why AC 2 and AC 5 did so little damage -> heat - and non of both weapons is really bad - when you make things right.

So what about the AC 2 -> does this weapon really need such a high rate of fire?
Considering that its only 6 tons and 1 crit - answer is plain and simple:
NO:
Or in other words because it is a - Anti Air Gun - rate of fire is needed - but does it really need to make such damage?
When there was ACs made right its: MWLL:
AC 2 - damage of 7 (0.05 - 0.1 dmg in MWO) but a cylce time of 0.125
AC 5 damage of 29 and a cylce time of 0.25

But i don't want to talk about DoT i want to talk about ratio:
in MWO: the AC 2 - fires ~ 2.75 faster as a AC 5
in MWO the AC 5 does 2.5 as much damage as the AC 2

To make them equal the AC 5 need at least a cylce time of 1.12 or the AC of 0.75 - and we are talking about equality - we didn't even talked about the additonal 2 tons for the AC 5 and the 3 crits:
So the AC 2 must fire much slower / or deal less damage.


Anyhow - i agree that MWO shouldn't take values from TT. They shouldn't repeat the same mistakes. But they did

Edited by Karl Streiger, 06 March 2014 - 12:14 AM.

[Varent]

Karl Streiger, on 06 March 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:

Was that the response - for my AC 2 rant - try harder:



I really love it whe guys are posting such things.

Would everything would have been bad - when you had slower recycle times?
The machine gun like all other weapons in BT does abstract damage - you only take a look at the lore:
those machine guns in Mechs - range from typical 0.5 cal to 20mm gattling guns.... do you really whant to say that those guns have the same ability to hurt things?
What about range?
99% of all players that came to TT... are only seeing armor points and damage points.
Hardly anybody is able to see behind those facts.... a 0.5 cal with a range of 90m.
But if you read some of the newer RuleBooks more carefully - like "Time of War" RPG - > you see that there is an statement: the given range means that at this range there is a moderate chance - that your weapon will damage your target.
TADA:
Damage Drop Off...not range - a 0.5 cal machine gun bullet is more than capable of hitting a Atlas size target at 2000m.

same for the 10second cylce time.... its abstract - you have no numbers for the shots fired.
The Solaris Duell rules made it a little bit - painfull, but anyhow - regarding the first edition of games - there was a reason why AC 2 and AC 5 did so little damage -> heat - and non of both weapons is really bad - when you make things right.

So what about the AC 2 -> does this weapon really need such a high rate of fire?
Considering that its only 6 tons and 1 crit - answer is plain and simple:
NO:
Or in other words because it is a - Anti Air Gun - rate of fire is needed - but does it really need to make such damage?
When there was ACs made right its: MWLL:
AC 2 - damage of 7 (0.05 - 0.1 dmg in MWO) but a cylce time of 0.125
AC 5 damage of 29 and a cylce time of 0.25

But i don't want to talk about DoT i want to talk about ratio:
in MWO: the AC 2 - fires ~ 2.75 faster as a AC 5
in MWO the AC 5 does 2.5 as much damage as the AC 2

To make them equal the AC 5 need at least a cylce time of 1.12 or the AC of 0.75 - and we are talking about equality - we didn't even talked about the additonal 2 tons for the AC 5 and the 3 crits:
So the AC 2 must fire much slower / or deal less damage.


Anyhow - i agree that MWO shouldn't take values from TT. They shouldn't repeat the same mistakes. But they did

or it can just be its own game and not worry about ratios. And no the 12 angry men comment is in regards to the bickering and petty squabbling.

[Karl Streiger]

Varent, on 06 March 2014 - 12:24 AM, said:

or it can just be its own game and not worry about ratios. And no the 12 angry men comment is in regards to the bickering and petty squabbling.

Indeed it could:
But if so you must tell me:
In a "game" where all weapons are on an equal TechLevel - there is not a single valid reason why the
AC 2 has a higher v0, more range and a higher rate of fire as the next AC. while beeing smaller and lighter.

If you could say - hey different TechLevel (although it wouldn't make sense)

• AC 2 is a M16
  
• AC 5 is a M1 Garrant
  
• AC 10 a Sharp Rifle
  
• AC 20 is an Enfield Rifled Musket