216 replies to this topic

[Monsoon]

No Remorse, on 04 March 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

WAY back in closed beta there was a mech, the loathed and feared master of battlefield, the K2 guass kitty. This is where our story begins.

There were so many people who whined and complained that people could actually aim and hit their target with these guns that PGI eventually relented and nerfed the weapon. This is when PGI took that fateful step into submitting to every whim of their player base if it meant another dollar. This, of course, led to many more dollars lost in the long run.

As an aside, I played A LOT in closed beta. Do you know what my favourite mech to attack was? The K2, I would search them out and kill them before they had a chance to wreak havoc. I did it with another kitty, my "Whoosh" cat, two LRM 15s and four streaks, purpose built to kill K2's. If the K2 was lucky he would have my pods off before I got to him, but usually my LRMS would mess his aim up so badly he couldn't hit me until I was on top of him. So the K2 was far from the invincible machine everyone claims, you just had to use... what's the word, oh, yeah, TACTICS!

So with their new powers, the "Whiners Club" joined forces and began to complain about EVERY weapon in the game which killed them in game at least twice. PGI began its blitz to balance this game, not matter what the cost. Patch after patch was tweak this, re-tweak that, oops that was overboard, reign that in, now this is too powerful, wait, no it wasn't, it wasn't powerful enough. "Statistics, bah, we don't need statistics to balance things. This is a game! Why would we use complex statistical models when we can just ask our cadre of whiners, oh, I mean our player base?"

Then they turned their attention to the chassis, oh boy, hit box hell began. Do I need to talk about all the posts on hit boxes? Hit box here, hit there, hit boxes are everywhere. Now you have problem with hit registration, most likely to the amount of tampering with the hit boxes of every mech!

Breathe... okay I'm good, back to the point.

The results of all this mess is PGI has allocated so much time and resources on "balancing" these issues that they have failed to produce a single new weapon for the IS, and have no clue as to how to balance Clan tech. New chassis come out which drastically over power current mechs. On top of that, the forums are flooded with the over righteous and highly indignant whiners club who feel justified in complaining over everything! That's my job damn it!

If PGI could have stayed focus on developing the game like adding features instead of over balancing the hell out of it, we might have actually had a great game right now. But we got what we got, take it or leave it, I suggest the latter. This as much PGI's fault as it is the "Whiners Club" of course, this also led the the rise of the dreaded "PGI Defenders"

First, Back in Closed Beta, GaussCats were easy enough to kill, same with SplatCats, StreakCats or BoomCats. All it really took was the ability to aim and you could either Headshot them (which was equally true of Awesome, Centurion, Hunchback), or SideTorso them with ease. Of course, with only 8-9 Chassis and no HSR, if you had a good ping, you were golden. Of course if you were playing from Australia you were screwed...

Secondly, are you aware of the lore? More weapons for the IS? We pretty much have everything available for the IS during the time period, other than an experimental dual-Large Laser, Inferno Missiles, and Mech Artillery...

But if you're whining about Balance/Over-Balance... I shudder to see how the forums would look with Arrow IV, Long-Tom and Infernos in the game...

It's not about new weapons, what we need is AC to become burst weapons, have recoil, and for all weapons to actually be affected by convergence. I still want skill to win out over randomness, but pin-point high-alpha builds are the biggest problem, moreso than 'jump snipers'.

Edited by Monsoon, 06 March 2014 - 12:50 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Monsoon, on 06 March 2014 - 12:37 AM, said:

It's not about new weapons, what we need is AC to become burst weapons, have recoil, and for all weapons to actually be affected by convergence. I still want skill to win out over randomness, but pin-point high-alpha builds are the biggest problem, moreso than 'jump snipers'.

QFT: - but you have to admit - that win because of randomness - even now : (look at the critical hit system - that is dice rolling)
look at the artillery strikes -> dice rolling
look at your team mates -> dice rolling

[Mcgral18]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

I could back up my attitude with *performance,* and invite you to try and prove me wrong.

Now, back on topic: the NERF EVERYTHING crowd has yet to provide a single argument more cohesive than "aiming is OP." Precision weapons are not inherently "better" than track weapons, no matter how much they want to whine about them. They refuse to acknowledge player skill as part of the equation, not to mention the difficulty of placing precise shots with a free-roaming reticule with real-time weapon orientation. They refuse to consider the aspects of projectile velocity, target deflection, and trajectory. They just don't exist in their argument. Full stop.

Actually, I did provide the math which states weapons are doing too much damage, and that damage is mostly applied in large chunks, which doesn't balance well in a FPS environment. Example: AC20 does 20 damage over 10 seconds, in MWO it fires at 0, 4, 8 and it has a half recycle. It does 70 damage if you count that half recycle, instead of 20. Doubled armor makes that 35 damage, nearly twice what it should be.

As for this, FLD has a clear advantage over beam weapons. The travel speed is trivial on AC5s and PPCs, and the 3x range is the only time you're going to have a hard time leading. The 2x range on lasers doesn't really let you take advantage of the hitscan, and you can easily twist to mitigate that damage on your arms.

Player skill, well to be quite honest not much skill is required to be above average at this game, you just have to twist and learn to press R. Instant convergence removed the skill of having to place your weapons on the same component, which would have certainly made player skill a much larger factor.

The only thing hard to lead is now the AC20, and SRMs since their velocity is so darn low. AC2s and gauss share 2k M/s which only needs noticeable leading past 600M, PPC at 1500 M/s takes a bit more, but hardly difficult once you get accustomed to that weapon. AC5s at 1300 pair very nicely with PPCs.

And sorry varent, but feeding this troll amuses me. It kept me entertained while waiting for 12 mans.

Edited by Mcgral18, 06 March 2014 - 07:07 AM.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 06 March 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

And sorry varent, but feeding this troll amuses me. It kept me entertained while waiting for 12 mans.

your a bad man.

[Varent]

Karl Streiger, on 06 March 2014 - 12:37 AM, said:

Indeed it could:
But if so you must tell me:
In a "game" where all weapons are on an equal TechLevel - there is not a single valid reason why the
AC 2 has a higher v0, more range and a higher rate of fire as the next AC. while beeing smaller and lighter.

If you could say - hey different TechLevel (although it wouldn't make sense)

• AC 2 is a M16
  
• AC 5 is a M1 Garrant
  
• AC 10 a Sharp Rifle
  
• AC 20 is an Enfield Rifled Musket

id love to answer that one. your analogy is very wrong btw.

the ac2 is more of a submachine gun, or at best and automatic pistol, low damage that requires you to hold on target.

With the premium on being able to do damage then torso twist in the current meta the fact that you have to hold on target for longer witht he ac2 is its own innate draw back. In up close fights most larger ac and srm users most definetly will win simply due to the fact they can fire and torso twist where as the ac2 user will be forced to continuously hold on target and spread his shots.

[Karl Streiger]

Varent, on 06 March 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

id love to answer that one. your analogy is very wrong btw.

the ac2 is more of a submachine gun, or at best and automatic pistol, low damage that requires you to hold on target.

With the premium on being able to do damage then torso twist in the current meta the fact that you have to hold on target for longer witht he ac2 is its own innate draw back. In up close fights most larger ac and srm users most definetly will win simply due to the fact they can fire and torso twist where as the ac2 user will be forced to continuously hold on target and spread his shots.

That is the only mistake you can make with a AC 2 -> get locked in CQ -> when you use its great v0 and range - you can cripple targets before they are even able to respond... and when they torso twist - i get only more cbills...i won't release the trigger... when they came back to shot i get the location i want to hit.

The only answer to AC 2 spamming - is to place your own shaking shots on the target - and hope that he will overreact to get you back into aim (thats the difference between real veterans and newbs)

But you are right - you have to get close to the AC 2 Mech to have a slight chance (means he shouldn't be able to fire at you while closing -> when you run through the open you get some serious damage....

Edited by Karl Streiger, 06 March 2014 - 08:24 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Master Maniac, on 05 March 2014 - 10:40 PM, said:

I could back up my attitude with *performance,* and invite you to try and prove me wrong.

Now, back on topic: the NERF EVERYTHING crowd has yet to provide a single argument more cohesive than "aiming is OP." Precision weapons are not inherently "better" than track weapons, no matter how much they want to whine about them. They refuse to acknowledge player skill as part of the equation, not to mention the difficulty of placing precise shots with a free-roaming reticule with real-time weapon orientation. They refuse to consider the aspects of projectile velocity, target deflection, and trajectory. They just don't exist in their argument. Full stop.

Some of us are so good at the game we want things nerfed/changed/balanced because we realize it is just... too easy for some weapons and other ones are just too stupid. Climb to that tier and you'll reach Nirvana.

(or PUG mm hell--both, really)

Edited by Mister Blastman, 06 March 2014 - 08:29 AM.

[Varent]

Karl Streiger, on 06 March 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

That is the only mistake you can make with a AC 2 -> get locked in CQ -> when you use its great v0 and range - you can cripple targets before they are even able to respond... and when they torso twist - i get only more cbills...i won't release the trigger... when they came back to shot i get the location i want to hit.

The only answer to AC 2 spamming - is to place your own shaking shots on the target - and hope that he will overreact to get you back into aim (thats the difference between real veterans and newbs)

But you are right - you have to get close to the AC 2 Mech to have a slight chance (means he shouldn't be able to fire at you while closing -> when you run through the open you get some serious damage....

experiment with the gyros mod. The ac2 doesnt shake your cockpit at all while your using it. (and I mean at all). In practice in the game ive never had an issue (while ina brawling mech) killing an ac2 user. At ranges? sure he has advantage (AND HE SHOULD). In a true brawl up close? Not so much. In any mech that can properly torso twist your going to win that game. The ac2 relies to much on distanced bombardment and holding on position and spreads the shots.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mister Blastman, on 04 March 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

the producers/designers/primary developers never even play their own game.

They do, with other people of 250 Elo.

[Master Maniac]

Kaeb Odellas, on 05 March 2014 - 11:25 PM, said:

Dude. Buddy. Pal. Lying about the size of your e-peen is kind of ridiculous when you've already shown us all how big it is.



LRMs are crutches now? What game are you playing?



I'm pretty sure everyone experiments with new builds constantly. No one else is claiming that they "average" 5 to 8 kills a game, when they pretty blatantly don't, and when called out on it attributes their weaker stats to "experimentation". Are you spending 80% of your matches in crappy mechs? Because in order for your "I average 5-8 kills per match" claim to even remotely make sense given the numbers you've shown us, that would mean you've got less than a thousand matches with kills, and 4000 where you get completely shut out and kill nothing.



Who is complaining about the Gauss being overpowered? They certainly were before the charge mechanic, but no one is seriously arguing that they're OP now.



The charge mechanic wasn't a bad move, though they really need to work on adding better indicators for it. To be honest, I'd rather they added the charge mechanic to the PPC instead. You can cram a PPC into just about anything, and most mechs 40 tons and up can carry multiples. Only a handful of mechs can actually dual-Gauss, and all the charge did was diminish the use of Gauss rifles in mixed builds and encourage dual-Gauss builds instead.

I could go line-to-line, man, I really could, but instead I'll just sum it up for you by saying "bring it on." Premium 1v1, or if we just so happen to drop in the same game at the same time - bring it on.

I drop solo. Sometimes my team derps and this leads to my team getting hopelessly steamrolled. But I keep a whole library of screenshots of high kill/high damage rounds, and I get these whenever I use a *serious* mech, and am actually *trying* (which, I admit, I don't really do too incredibly often anymore). You want to rail about who's the better player? Go right ahead. I can tell you that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, I am, and would be absolutely thrilled to show that to you. Repeatedly, if possible.

To answer your question: YES, in fact, I DO spend 70 to 80% of my time in mechs other than the ones I perform well in, since you ask. I do it, because I like to have *fun.* With 12 mech bays, I have plenty of room to do that. If I were to run 30 matches a day or whatever with nothing more than my Ilya or my Blackjack, I would get sick of those mechs very, very quickly. These days, I barely use my favorite mechs at all, and run with builds I'm hardly the best at using. I do so because it's enjoyable. If you MUST know.

And yes, LRMs are lazy weapons for lazy players. They're a crutch for players who cannot aim and hit their targets.

PPCs are FINE, because of the simple fact they run so very hot. They might as well just take everything that's not a medium laser right out of the game for all the whinewarriors who are offended by anything that gives skilled shooters an edge.

[DocBach]

PPC's are the kings of energy weapons and should be badass.

One of the biggest problems with the pinpoint convergence has yet to even be seen - Clan weapons are buffed versions of what we have now. Ultra AC/10's and 20's which can double fire the largest weapons in the game with longer effective ranges are going to be gamebreaking as all hell.

[Varent]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 March 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

They do, with other people of 250 Elo.

I used to run into them here and there when I started playing, since my elo has risen I rarely see them anymore... so im guessing this is correct. I do have one or two of them on my friends list and see them online though, they are out there.

DocBach, on 06 March 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

Ultra AC/10's and 20's which can double fire the largest weapons in the game with longer effective ranges are going to be gamebreaking as all hell.

not if they up the jam rate by the ac size. then they will be high risk high reward and very amusing in my books.

[Daggett]

No Remorse, on 04 March 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Why would we use complex statistical models when we can just ask our cadre of whiners, oh, I mean our player base?"

How strange... They recently nerfed the AC10 without anyone whining about it. But i guess they just rolled some dice for deciding that, it would be ridiculous to think that they had some statistics...

Edited by Daggett, 06 March 2014 - 09:08 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 March 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

They do, with other people of 250 Elo.

touche.

[Deathlike]

Mister Blastman, on 06 March 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

touche.

Well, PGI did officially christen the Underhive with their new Trial Cataphract...

[Mister Blastman]

Deathlike, on 06 March 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

Well, PGI did officially christen the Underhive with their new Trial Cataphract...

100% meta manz!11111 It iz teh shiznit! Ah gots mah wheel an' I'm gun a keeel stuff with mah... wut?

(Because, ya know, PGI is on top of what is effective these days)

[Monsoon]

Karl Streiger, on 06 March 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

QFT: - but you have to admit - that win because of randomness - even now : (look at the critical hit system - that is dice rolling)
look at the artillery strikes -> dice rolling
look at your team mates -> dice rolling

True enough, but those are all 'dice rolls' always...well except the last one, you can always do groups to minimize terribad players, and even terribad players can prove useful if they're on a comm and can listen to orders and follow them to the best of their ability.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Master Maniac, on 06 March 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

I could go line-to-line, man, I really could, but instead I'll just sum it up for you by saying "bring it on." Premium 1v1, or if we just so happen to drop in the same game at the same time - bring it on.

I drop solo. Sometimes my team derps and this leads to my team getting hopelessly steamrolled. But I keep a whole library of screenshots of high kill/high damage rounds, and I get these whenever I use a *serious* mech, and am actually *trying* (which, I admit, I don't really do too incredibly often anymore). You want to rail about who's the better player? Go right ahead. I can tell you that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, I am, and would be absolutely thrilled to show that to you. Repeatedly, if possible.

To answer your question: YES, in fact, I DO spend 70 to 80% of my time in mechs other than the ones I perform well in, since you ask. I do it, because I like to have *fun.* With 12 mech bays, I have plenty of room to do that. If I were to run 30 matches a day or whatever with nothing more than my Ilya or my Blackjack, I would get sick of those mechs very, very quickly. These days, I barely use my favorite mechs at all, and run with builds I'm hardly the best at using. I do so because it's enjoyable. If you MUST know.

You know, when you get your ass kicked while "playing for fun", your Elo rating does goes down. That means you're never actually getting tougher opponents in your matches, which would explain your claims of "Average 5 kills a match when I try".

Master Maniac, on 06 March 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

And yes, LRMs are lazy weapons for lazy players. They're a crutch for players who cannot aim and hit their targets.

Here's a challenge for you:

Outfit a Medium mech or a Heavy* with an LRM-heavy build, and see how far you get. Observe how often you're firing missiles that will inevitably miss because the missiles fly so slow that the enemy can easily make it to cover before they reach him. Watch as a single ECM mech can completely shut you out with just 1.5 tons of equipment. Marvel at the absolute waste of a team slot you become when you're the only LRM mech and the enemy team is stacked with overlapping AMS, obliterating your missile salvos before they have a chance to do damage.

Of course, if all your "just for fun" matches are dragging your Elo, down, then you're probably going to fighting newbie pilots anyway, which are the only players LRMs are actually effective against...

I find it telling that my LRM stats are the worst among all of my weapons. Least accurate by a huge margin. This is probably the case for almost everyone in the game.

*I say Medium or Heavy because you do have a point with LRM60 Assaults. There's really not a whole lot to do with them but stick with the team and hope to God your teammates can provide locks and protection, because you're not going to get reliable lock at 48 kph, and you're damn sure not going to be able to protect yourself from even a crappy Locust.

Master Maniac, on 06 March 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

PPCs are FINE, because of the simple fact they run so very hot. They might as well just take everything that's not a medium laser right out of the game for all the whinewarriors who are offended by anything that gives skilled shooters an edge.

PPCs are not hard to use. PPCs have the advantage over lasers because they are guaranteed to deal all their damage to one component, while a laser is going to spread all over due to your movement, the enemy's movement, and the enemy's twisting. Plus, lasers have to maintain facing for a full second to deal damage, while a PPC needs only an instant. A PPC user can twist to mitigate a laser's damage. A laser user cannot do the same with PPC damage.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 06 March 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[DocBach]

Kaeb Odellas, on 06 March 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

You know, when you get your ass kicked while "playing for fun", your Elo rating does goes down. That means you're never actually getting tougher opponents in your matches, which would explain your claims of "Average 5 kills a match when I try".




Here's a challenge for you:

Outfit a Medium mech or a Heavy* with an LRM-heavy build, and see how far you get. Observe how often you're firing missiles that will inevitably miss because the missiles fly so slow that the enemy can easily make it to cover before they reach him. Watch as a single ECM mech can completely shut you out with just 1.5 tons of equipment. Marvel at the absolute waste of a team slot you become when you're the only LRM mech and the enemy team is stacked with overlapping AMS, obliterating your missile salvos before they have a chance to do damage.

Of course, if all your "just for fun" matches are dragging your Elo, down, then you're probably going to fighting newbie pilots anyway, which are the only players LRMs are actually effective against...

I find it telling that my LRM stats are the worst among all of my weapons. Least accurate by a huge margin. This is probably the case for almost everyone in the game.

*I say Medium or Heavy because you do have a point with LRM60 Assaults. There's really not a whole lot to do with them but stick with the team and hope to God your teammates can provide locks and protection, because you're not going to get reliable lock at 48 kph, and you're damn sure not going to be able to protect yourself from even a crappy Locust.



PPCs are not hard to use. PPCs have the advantage over lasers because they are guaranteed to deal all their damage to one component, while a laser is going to spread all over due to your movement, the enemy's movement, and the enemy's twisting. Plus, lasers have to maintain facing for a full second to deal damage, while a PPC needs only an instant. A PPC user can twist to mitigate a laser's damage. A laser user cannot do the same with PPC damage.

ER PPC 320 7,976 5,081 63.70% 1 day 04:37:04 51,638

AC/20 355 4,458 3,261 73.15% 1 day 08:56:27 64,658

PPC 518 19,350 12,497 64.58% 2 days 02:06:31 125,287

AC/10 285 6,092 4,205 69.02% 1 day 02:37:46 43,694

LRM 15 127 57,733 17,939 31.07% 12:18:05 17,488

[Mazzyplz]

Quote

the NERF EVERYTHING crowd has yet to provide a single argument more cohesive than "aiming is OP."

go back 2 pages, i made a solid argument that if all the weapons had the same damage it would be a twitch shooter still.
and it would still require skill.
(though dissenting voices started ignoring me when they saw it made sense - god forbid they take their win button)
and another argument than making some weapons more powerful it's limiting the choice of (some of) the userbase to only those weapons that do massive damage, or is ballistic not the most popular weapon in the game? because from my 3000 drops i'd say it is.. though count it as anecdotal evidence.