55 replies to this topic

[Yeach]

If customization is allowed, I was thinking of using a Mechcommander2 style of having enough heatsinks (HS) before you can add a heat-intensive weapon.
ie lets say you are cannot have weapons that get you go over the number of HS available; the mech has 10 HS (10 cooling)
Before you can install an ERPPC (15 heat), your mech is 10 cooling
Add 5 HS = 15 cooling; now you have enough cooling to add an ERPPC.

[MaddMaxx]

Yeach, on 29 November 2011 - 01:58 AM, said:

If customization is allowed, I was thinking of using a Mechcommander2 style of having enough heatsinks (HS) before you can add a heat-intensive weapon.
ie lets say you are cannot have weapons that get you go over the number of HS available; the mech has 10 HS (10 cooling)
Before you can install an ERPPC (15 heat), your mech is 10 cooling
Add 5 HS = 15 cooling; now you have enough cooling to add an ERPPC.

Yup. Even go so far as to add those Heat sinks to the weapon as a Kit Buy. No way to not buy them, they are built in, just like your engine HS's.

And BT has all the Heat - Weapon values. Easy to build Weapon Kits.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 29 November 2011 - 11:28 AM.

[Pht]

Just to make things a bit easier:



IMO, the avoid rolls on shutdown shouldn't be rolled; they represent our being able to hit the shutdown override quickly enough.

[Yeach]

Pht, on 29 November 2011 - 04:55 PM, said:

IMO, the avoid rolls on shutdown shouldn't be rolled; they represent our being able to hit the shutdown override quickly enough.

Oooh twitch-fest to determine who can quickly hit the shut-down override button quick enough. Quick hide before the TT people find you.

[deshamus]

Heat was always a wonderful balancing effect in the board game - lucky (or unlucky) rolls were a mainstay when you were down to your last speck of armour and the opponent had just alpha'd all over you. Heat - a good way to have people thinking what they are doing around balancing the needs of the machine they are piloting if done well.

[Gorith]

Yeach, on 29 November 2011 - 07:05 PM, said:

Oooh twitch-fest to determine who can quickly hit the shut-down override button quick enough. Quick hide before the TT people find you.

To late... you should run faster...

Actually I rather like the idea of haivng to decide on the spot if its worth it to keep your mech running and racking up penalties or allowing your mech to shutdown to bleed off heat a little faster

[VYCanis]

yeah really i don't see any problem with a player being able to keep slapping the override button as long as they want. Provided that being hot enough where they have to do so poses increasing risks the longer they stay in the red, and the hotter you are running and the longer you are running hot, the harder the overrides are to hit in time.

if you are running so hot your mech can barely move or fight and you have to keep hitting override every few seconds, just to aim in a general direction and FIRE FIRE FIRE until your mech melts down, so be it.

just make it glorious

[Ceefood]

This is what I have been arguing for in the scrathcbuild thread - sorry if its a bit long

the OP said no heat for walking & running but heat for jumping - I disagree & I didnt see anyone coming up with a solution (may have missed it)
my solution walking builds 0.1 heat per sec, running 0.2 per sec & jumping 0.3 per sec - this is the equivalent to same heat in TT rules over 10 secs & dont see why it wouldnt work - if you dont fire then you dont really build heat that would affect you & you may not even notice the heat scale change

heat didnt work well since MW2 - anyone who played the original MW will know alpha striking comes with massive heat which took time to remove - even firing a couple of PPCs from a hammer or marauder got you close to shutdown

back to the OP I like all the heat ideas BUT I do not like the clan ideas - if you implement this heat system they too will have to worry about heat like the IS but the just dissipate it faster which makes alpha striking still a threat for heat problems
also XL engines (both for clan & IS) then become a risk, for if you lose a torso or even take an engine hit thats going to diminish your firepower unless you want to risk shutdowns due to the 0.5 heat per second per engine hit (side torso clan XL 1.0 per sec)

I like the idea of shutdowns earlier too & you have to hit a button to override it - to slow & opps out till your mech gets below the shutdown level just like in the TT couple seconds at least

Heat slowing you down is also good - heavy mech firing lots becomes a nice juicy target since he is hardly moving
same with ammo explosion risks

I dont mind if weapons can fire more often than once per 10 seconds maybe say once in 5 secs but if you do you run the risk of overheating & I think this will not only help bring in weapon balance but bring a more strategic playstyle.

heat affecting gunnery (TT rules penalty to dice rolls) could be simulated by blurring the screen more & more which makes aiming harder

I also think the 30pt heatscale is fine but I never played the 50pt one so really cant comment fully

[Liam]

The whole thermal losses mechanic in TT and MW Games is nice thought, but still stupid and simplyfied to nothing.
Why do people invent new stuff if the real physic balances everything by it self :/

[Dlardrageth]

I somewhat disagree with one point in the OP's proposal. There should be an option to have your Mech explode under you like in MW3. If you are reckless enough to constantly override the computer-induced shutdown manually, there should be some consequence. That being a core meltdown and complete destruction of your Mech. Incurring a massive repair bill of course (You might find a few armor scraps you can re-use eventually, ahaha).

Want to play risky/reckless and skirt the edge of the heat scale? Sure, you are welcome, but the risk has its price. If it hasn't, the whole heat game mechanics is devalued and we could as well go back to MW4 state where it is more of an annoying negligible factor than a real pressing concern.

One other point would be the targetting penalties with rising level on the heat scale (I personally think the 50pt one would be better as basis for a computer game). Just blurring up the screen some won't do much good as you might just hold the reticule steady and keep firing. When you got the enemy boxed in or on the ground or whatever. Even at distance. I think having the targeting reticule behave erratically would be more useful.

Let it completely blur out for a second occasionally on, say, heat Lvl 15+; be a few degrees off generally at Lvl 20+, jump erratically across your screen at Lvl 30+, and be gone for good at Lvl 40+. All of those combined should make enough of a targeting penalty if you will have to start free-aiming basically. And yes, I am aware that this will penalize long-range weaponry more than short-range. But that is rather realistic, you'll have an easier time getting somewhat aimed shots off at 25m than you have at 500m distance to target without reticule.

[Ceefood]

Dlardrageth, on 12 January 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

I somewhat disagree with one point in the OP's proposal. There should be an option to have your Mech explode under you like in MW3. If you are reckless enough to constantly override the computer-induced shutdown manually, there should be some consequence. That being a core meltdown and complete destruction of your Mech. Incurring a massive repair bill of course (You might find a few armor scraps you can re-use eventually, ahaha).

Want to play risky/reckless and skirt the edge of the heat scale? Sure, you are welcome, but the risk has its price. If it hasn't, the whole heat game mechanics is devalued and we could as well go back to MW4 state where it is more of an annoying negligible factor than a real pressing concern.

I think the idea is you can override only to a certain point but once it gets high enough (30 pts old scale or 50 pts in the newer) your mech shuts down regardless - I would like to see a penalty applied at this point as in you have to wait till your mech has cooled completely assuming you live that long - you want to play recklessly with your life & mech then pay a penalty!!

Dlardrageth, on 12 January 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

One other point would be the targetting penalties with rising level on the heat scale (I personally think the 50pt one would be better as basis for a computer game). Just blurring up the screen some won't do much good as you might just hold the reticule steady and keep firing. When you got the enemy boxed in or on the ground or whatever. Even at distance. I think having the targeting reticule behave erratically would be more useful.

true enough although that assumes the target is motionless or near so in which case are you likely to miss anyway. The reticule & hence where you are actually aiming being something that could move eratically is a good solution - computer boards are affected by heat so not working properly & since even is controlled by them so do your weapons - good solution

Dlardrageth, on 12 January 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

Let it completely blur out for a second occasionally on, say, heat Lvl 15+; be a few degrees off generally at Lvl 20+, jump erratically across your screen at Lvl 30+, and be gone for good at Lvl 40+. All of those combined should make enough of a targeting penalty if you will have to start free-aiming basically. And yes, I am aware that this will penalize long-range weaponry more than short-range. But that is rather realistic, you'll have an easier time getting somewhat aimed shots off at 25m than you have at 500m distance to target without reticule.

agree with all these ideas

[Zakski]

I love how optimistic you are with your thread title, As for the heat plan, its hard to say whether it works without playtesting, but as long as it doesn't completely nerf lasers its good

[statler]

yes more heat is needed, and you are not far enough off on the numbers that i would pick to bother suggesting in depth (would do better for water on initial heat and dissapation, heat for running as the engine is working hard, more heat for jumping as you are literally using huge rockets to lift a brick of steal, etc)

i like the idea of exploding or just melting down some parts to the point of real damage though, and would like that kept in. if you build a laser boat and fire it to much, your arm with 3 erlls melts to useless. torso weaps are the ones that shut down the cockpit and engine quicker than limb weaps, and eventually destroy your engine. a real bad boat plus design could kill your mechs systems pretty quick.

[Necromion]

apperently not many battletech fans have read the novels, as far as mechs exploding it was a rare occurance and by rare i mean most of the time the pilot had the engine rigged so it would go nova. but that rant aside, as for balancing clan vs IS well he problem is that by it's very nature clan tech is more advanced and thus more experimental. this often takes the form of increased heat (er lasers, ppc's etc), or bigger parts (XL engine) but they balanced out in that yes clan tech could cause more damage but clan mechs were easier to destroy (XL engines, destroy the right or left torso, dead mech). also unless im mistaken clan tech had longer recycle times compared to IS.

an example of this from TT, is I had a mech called a Bloodkite (clan tech) 3 er large lasers, 3 lrm 15's, and 3 streak srm 4's. after two rounds of practically alpha striking this thing it over heated and its ammo cooked off destroying both arms and decimating the left and right torso's. and one shot from a bushwackers MG took it down (sad I know).

also something else that most people seem to forget is that often the IS uses alot of combined arms tactics (aerospace, tanks, artillery). that most of the clans with a few exceptions (hells horses) tend to forgo as it goes against their honor system. and as a result you often have a couple lances going against a couple stars backed up by a tank company and in some cases aerospace. so thus it does balance out in the long run,

now are combined arms practical for game play purposes? possibly but we would need a large community and members willing to play the different castes (aerospace pilots, tank pilots, infantry, etc). or we could emulate these assests by having them being hired before the match and they are deployed with thier employers.

but back on topic as it is the heat system (mw4) needs a lot of work but if the op's ideas are used i would definatly be interested.

[Ceefood]

Necromion, on 14 January 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

apperently not many battletech fans have read the novels, as far as mechs exploding it was a rare occurance and by rare i mean most of the time the pilot had the engine rigged so it would go nova. but that rant aside, as for balancing clan vs IS well he problem is that by it's very nature clan tech is more advanced and thus more experimental. this often takes the form of increased heat (er lasers, ppc's etc), or bigger parts (XL engine) but they balanced out in that yes clan tech could cause more damage but clan mechs were easier to destroy (XL engines, destroy the right or left torso, dead mech). also unless im mistaken clan tech had longer recycle times compared to IS.

yes engine explosions in the novels were rare.

Clan XL engines only take up 2 slots in the side torsos whereas IS XL engines took up 3 per side - so if you lose a side torso as
clan - +10 heat per round (10 secs) every round
IS - mech destroyed (3 engine hits kills mech)
so while destroying a side torso heavily affects a clan mech when compared to a standard IS fusion engine mech it did not destroy it

clan weapons should not be considered experimental unless you put them into IS mechs - the weapons have been developed over time & do more damage but same heat than the comparable IS weapon ie ERPPC clan 15 dam & heat vs ERPPC IS 10 dam & 15 heat

There is nothing in canon that I am aware of that shows weapons having a longer cycle time for the clans - if it was used in any of the games (most likely MW4 then it was only put there for "balance" reasons & was not canon. Under TT rules everyone fired once per round with any weapons they wanted whether clan or IS & I dont remember any novels stating a longer cycle time either.

[Dlardrageth]

Necromion, on 14 January 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

apperently not many battletech fans have read the novels, as far as mechs exploding it was a rare occurance and by rare i mean most of the time the pilot had the engine rigged so it would go nova. but that rant aside,[...]

You also have to consider, though, that the pilots in the novels won't equal a teenage kid at home in his basement who could eventually give a **** if a few pixels "exploded" right under his behind. A person actually piloting a Mech might somewhat more and thus be considerably more careful in heat management matters. So for immersion matters alone an author of a novel has to make it rare unless all Mech pilots in his novel were braindead. It's the same if you look at a game dealing with contemporary "machines of war". You really think the majority of real-life tank drivers/commanders would handle their vehicle likie many do in the game "World of Tanks"? I don't think so...

So yeah, I'd definitely like to see the Mech explode under a player's butt, if he's not smart enough to realize the heat gauge is not there to provide merely nonessential background animation. Don't need MWO to be dumbed down to a level where you can mostly ignore heat levels. Bring nerfs to targeting (to make the slow to catch up people realize what is happening), bring the forced shutdowns, bring the ammo/Mech explosions!

If people really think they can overheat their Mech, override the auto-shutdown and "ride" at the ammo/reactor explosion edge all the time, make them pay for that. Penalize them hard if they manage to blow up their Mechs now and again by playing blatantly stupid/reckless. Like I stated before, a Mech who got taken out by a reactor explosion should be a complete write-off. So basically not a "big repair bill", no, you'd have to order a new stock Mech and all modifications of yours are gone for good. Don't like it? Well, duh, watch you heat gauge and use your brain, this ain't kindergarden kart racing!

(Okay, this may sound harsh and I'd eventually pity someone having lose his customized Mech that way by major misfortune. But I also do think we cannot really afford/condone heat being a mostly negligible factor like it has been in some past incarnations of MW. We know what that does to the game.)