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#41 TygerLily

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 05:58 AM

View PostFooooo, on 06 March 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:




Also add a commrose in the form of "vsays" (et / etqw) where all you have to do is press V to bring up the main comms menu (its always out of the way and you can still move and shoot while its open) then a number to go into the selected type of comms you want to send.

I would hate a commrose to be added for it to only be one of those silly mouse moving ones. Thoses ones take control away from you, are slow generally (in terms of speed to highlight and select vs using keys) and can usually only hold a few commands (as you cant use submenus...well you can but that would be annoying as all hell with the mouse imo) with nothing too specific really etc.

IE, add something like this as well...

V-1-1 would be say " Hello!! "

V (open comms menu)
1 (general comms selections)
1 (Hello!!)

V-1-2 would be say "Goodbye" (in et this was V-5-5 if i remember right....not that it matters......)

V (open comms)
1 (general comms)
2 ( goodbye )


Add all the other types of menus and comms to go with them etc....


Its extremely fast and easy to use once you remember the combo's. Even slowly going through it causes no problems as it never takes control of your char or prevents any control or blocks any vision etc.


Yea, that's a good idea. I keep citing Plantside 2 but...they have both a v-command system but and the rose com. Thinking about it, I use the v-commands a lot but when I played games on the console the rose command made more sense. So I think you're right, a keyboard "tree" of commands would probably be better.

Then again, you could do both: make a tap "v" to open the tree or hold it down to see the rose...

#42 1453 R

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:56 AM

Two Great Reasons Why In-Game Integrated VoIP Is a Miserable Idea:

1.) These Forums.
As has been stated: “in-game VoIP? With these knuckleheads? No thanks.”

People say “Just mute people you don’t like!” or “you don’t have to listen to trolls!” …and here I thought the purpose of the VoIP system was to listen to people? If the purpose is to listen to folks, but then I don’t have to listen to them…why, exactly, are we spending dev time and resources to integrate something that a significant number of players are going to instantly disable – permanently, by default, and with a smile on their face?

If the communications system can’t be relied on for communication – and it can’t, with the number of players who, like me, will immediately and without regret engage a global mute option indefinitely, because you guys are complete dungsacks who’re entirely and completely not worth listening to – then it’s a bad communications system. A good communications system, or at least the kernel of an idea for one, is introduced below.

2.) Discrete Commands vs. “The hell’d you just try and say? o_@”
I work in a call center for a living. I spend eight hours a day talking to people for my daily bread. I do so in, generally, one of two ways – via a text-based webchat client which works like AIM or MSN or whatever your text messenger service of choice is, or directly via phone conversations. Guess which one is clearer and easier to work with?

Voice communication is by default fugly, imprecise, and full of flaws. How am I supposed to know what the jerk calling himself the drop commander this time is saying when his bebe is screeching for a bottle behind him, or when he’s playing from his work camp in Siberia, or when he’s a twelve-year-old doing a heartfelt rendition of Seven Words You Can’t Say On TV in between his calls for a push. Furthermore, it is up to the listener to interpret what is said and mentally overlay it on the battlefield in order to make use of it, and sometimes you’re going to misfire, or spend too long translating when what you need is a quick, concrete directive or timely access to necessary information.

A V-command set or a command rose is a vastly cleaner interface which can also directly integrate with UI elements. Imagine, if you will, being a recon pilot. Now, imagine being a recon pilot who can push a single button – F5, let’s say – and in the doing generate an “Enemies Spotted!” message in chat, as well as highlighting the grid square currently under your crosshair on your team’s minimaps for the next ten seconds. Bam. With one button press, you’ve conveyed the information that you’ve found the Baddites, as well as displaying in a concrete manner where said Baddites were found. You could even build off of that! Why can’t a drop commander open up his battlegrid, click on the recon-highlighted square, and get a list of related orders he can issue?

Discrete, keyboard-issued commands/reports: cleaner, simpler, far less prone to abuse, faster, and with the ability to hook directly into UI elements in order to more powerfully convey the necessary information. Who the hell wants VoIP in this game over a system like this?

And before you tell me “Why not do both?!”…have you seen the pace of Piranha’s updates and features implementation? We have to be very careful what we ask these guys for, because if we get it, odds are pretty high that it’s the only thing we’re going to be getting beyond MC merchandise for the next year.

#43 Heffay

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:23 AM

While I'm not saying voice comms are essential, the argument that some people will be abusive over it isn't really a reason to not implement it. People will abuse everything, and if you don't do anything based on the fact that someone will play shenanigans with something, nothing will ever get done.

#44 1453 R

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:36 AM

There's a difference between going ahead with something despite some potential for abuse, and doing something that specifically invites, even in some cases demands, abuse. Voice comms are one of the easiest ways in the world to throw your game wide open to trolls, jerkbags, and tryhards all doing their dead-level best to decrease the size of your playerbase. Why give them the chance when discrete commands are easier and more relevant to the game's needs anyways?

Edited by 1453 R, 07 March 2014 - 07:36 AM.


#45 Heffay

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:56 AM

View Post1453 R, on 07 March 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

There's a difference between going ahead with something despite some potential for abuse, and doing something that specifically invites, even in some cases demands, abuse. Voice comms are one of the easiest ways in the world to throw your game wide open to trolls, jerkbags, and tryhards all doing their dead-level best to decrease the size of your playerbase. Why give them the chance when discrete commands are easier and more relevant to the game's needs anyways?


It doesn't "demand" abuse. The proper question is "are the benefits provided by voice comms worth the costs, or are there other, better solutions." And I vote for other, better solutions (aka Assist keys with rewards).

#46 Flying Blind

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 09:41 AM

as if command wheel comms can't be abused. we already have those lovely trolls that blink the take company lead button on and off as fast as they can just to annoy people. you think a command wheel won't get spammed? can we say naive?

I'm not saying a coms wheel would be bad, just not as good or fun as voip.

stop being afraid of people, this is what this whole argument seems to be coming down to: oh I'm afraid somebody might misbehave with the ability to speak freely so I don't want it. yeah people are going to misbehave with it. be an adult (even if you aren't), call the offender out (without attacking them) and if they don't shape up mute them. the rest of the team will still perform way better for having voip, lots of fun will be had and the troll will get laughed at.

#47 Barkem Squirrel

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 09:57 AM

Years ago I would test a shooter and stop. Not with this.

The big questions.

Would VOIP lead to a better new player retention at the cost of other aspects of the game like Community Warfare?

Which would allow PGI to make more money?

Then how much flame on the forums with putting off Community warfare for a bit to get VOIP?

View PostToong, on 04 March 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:


The topic hasn't been hit on in a while, far as I can tell, but last I heard, PGI was favoring a radial command menu over VoIP. There are a couple of reasons for this decision, if I remember:





If they go to a radial command menu like the FBCB2 system that the army uses with the certain reports or buttons like the function keys. You still have to push a button, and type. A better idea is very basic hit a F# key and a drop down commands come. Less time and will get attention. I had to train people for a week on this type of system, and even in the field testing it, I had to re-teach it.

I am on the fence with VIOP, but I do see some benefit and some problems with training for use of a command type system to warn other people. VOIP costs money, but would it retain more new players to pay for itself?

Also a command system could allow for use of the command council by adding an other player to that mech. A 13th to the drop to manage information.

#48 o0Marduk0o

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:11 AM

VOIP? The feature which gets turned offt by most players who don't want to listen to flames, handy ring tones and senseless babble of bored teammates?
A command wheel is all we need for proper communication in a PUG. Premades haveTeamspeak or similar solutions.

#49 Edward Mattlov

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 11:08 AM

View PostSybreed, on 04 March 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

yes, VOIP plz.

Now, unleash the white knights so they come and tell us why we don't neeuyd VOIP in a team online multiplayer game.


I don't mind if PGI eventually adds a Planetside 2 style in-game VOIP system for people who are either too lazy, or too ignorant to use a 3rd party VOIP system, as long as it can be disabled. I do not want PGI to prioritize this over other priorities though.

#50 Colonel Fubar

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Posted 07 March 2014 - 11:13 PM

View PostFlying Blind, on 04 March 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Near the end of the podcast they talk about mwo. Say it is one of the best shooters ever but also say it desperately needs in game voip.

PGI has recently said that PUG teams are at a serious disadvantage without voice comms, now the PC Gamer says same.
Hey PGI can we have in game voip yet?

Source:
Starting just past the 1 hour mark http://m.pcgamer.com...cus-focus-mode/
Most of podcast talks about Thief and other games.


Oh no, please don't ask PGI to break from their tradition of ignoring the obvious and embracing the ridiculous.
Their normal modus operandi of making it up as they go along works so much better.

#51 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 07:27 PM

The abuse argument is totally fail. every single game with VOIP you can mute or use another system/block players, etc. your never forced to listen to some idiot you don't want to. pretty straight forward 20th century technology really.

#52 Lukoi Banacek

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Posted 09 March 2014 - 12:22 PM

View PostBarkem Squirrel, on 07 March 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

Years ago I would test a shooter and stop. Not with this.

The big questions.

Would VOIP lead to a better new player retention at the cost of other aspects of the game like Community Warfare?

Which would allow PGI to make more money?

Then how much flame on the forums with putting off Community warfare for a bit to get VOIP?




If they go to a radial command menu like the FBCB2 system that the army uses with the certain reports or buttons like the function keys. You still have to push a button, and type. A better idea is very basic hit a F# key and a drop down commands come. Less time and will get attention. I had to train people for a week on this type of system, and even in the field testing it, I had to re-teach it.

I am on the fence with VIOP, but I do see some benefit and some problems with training for use of a command type system to warn other people. VOIP costs money, but would it retain more new players to pay for itself?

Also a command system could allow for use of the command council by adding an other player to that mech. A 13th to the drop to manage information.


Just to note, the biggest reason the US Army uses JCR (the successor system to FBCB2...essentially a software upgrade) FIPR messages (aka text messaging) is the reach. JCR/FBCB2/BFT can send digital information further than the typical FM-communications systems used in theater and it leaves an automatic legacy product that can be referred to.

Outside of that, for speed, clarity, and confirmation, voice comms is always preferred in a PACE plan but technology, bandwidth and the distances within which we operate ensure that FIPR, Jabber-chat, mIRC (yes we use the hell out of mIRC style stuff) will always be used heavily.

That being said, for this video game VOIP would be nice to have, but only so long as I can disable it/mute it so that I don't suffer 1) performance chokes and 2) inane moronic banter and just poor behavior/sportsmanship over the channel if I don't want to. I'll be fine with using a 3rd party system as most gamers have been doing for quite some time now, with the ability to tailor who I have to listen to.

Edited by Lukoi, 09 March 2014 - 12:24 PM.


#53 Nick Makiaveli

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 07:53 AM

View PostFlying Blind, on 04 March 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Near the end of the podcast they talk about mwo. Say it is one of the best shooters ever but also say it desperately needs in game voip.

PGI has recently said that PUG teams are at a serious disadvantage without voice comms, now the PC Gamer says same.
Hey PGI can we have in game voip yet?

Source:
Starting just past the 1 hour mark http://m.pcgamer.com...cus-focus-mode/
Most of podcast talks about Thief and other games.


I don't get the fuss over in-game VOIP. Sure I use TS when grouped with the DHB. But when grouped up we either use TS for goofing around and chatting, or we use it tactically.

The difference if I was grouped with random folks? I might or might not enjoy the banter, given I am not terribly fond of foul mouthed teens and racist idiots. Sure there are plenty of nice people out there, but it only takes one in 12 who never shuts up, or plays music etc.

But wait you say, what about those times when you are teamed with the direct descendant of Napoleon or Eisenhower? Surely having a awesome general on your team will make it all worthwhile? Well let's examine that shall we? First, the general may be a moron and not know the difference between strategy and tactics. Second, even if he is a good commander, he has a hodgepodge team and no time to learn their builds and skill levels. Third, do you really expect the majority of the team to listen?

Bottom Line: Comms are a great tool. They are not a substitute for skill, they will not automatically generate teamwork. If you want comms, join a unit, House or merc. Then you gain much more than just comms.

#54 Trauglodyte

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:22 AM

View PostSybreed, on 04 March 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

yes, VOIP plz.

Now, unleash the white knights so they come and tell us why we don't need VOIP in a team online multiplayer game.


The game really needs VOIP. I'm just fearful that it won't really get used. For most units, they either use the Comstar team speak or they have their seperate team speak/vent/mumble channels. Personally, I'd much rather PGI just create/fun their own Team Speak channel and then have an actual honest to goodness Community Rep handle all requests for unti channels. It would be faster and easier. Is it reasonable and without hassle? I don't know.

#55 Ryoken

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:17 AM

View PostSybreed, on 04 March 2014 - 08:44 PM, said:

yes, VOIP plz.

Now, unleash the white knights so they come and tell us why we don't need VOIP in a team online multiplayer game.

Until we have an option to drop with 5+ player premade AND beeing able to earn XP and c-bills in a team online multiplayer game they can stay away from VOIP imho.

As they also stated in the interview it only takes some trolls to ruin the whole game for the entire team, so the ability to choose more than 3 friends to play with, and the ability to kick/mark/negrep trolls from the game would be needed first.

So PGI needs to actually allow teamplay so team communication would be of any use. That most of the people do even reject all the 100% FREE TS3 Servers just tells enough about the pug population. It will be only trolls, screaming people on the last running/hiding light, etc. ...

Those who really want VOIP got it allready! It's called TS3 and it's free!

View PostTrauglodyte, on 12 March 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

The game really needs VOIP. I'm just fearful that it won't really get used. For most units, they either use the Comstar team speak or they have their seperate team speak/vent/mumble channels. Personally, I'd much rather PGI just create/fun their own Team Speak channel and then have an actual honest to goodness Community Rep handle all requests for unti channels. It would be faster and easier. Is it reasonable and without hassle? I don't know.

We allready got the NGNG TS3 Server, which kinda is the official MWO community server. It is free and full of friendly people. Is it so hard to click one link?

Edited by Ryoken, 12 March 2014 - 08:23 AM.


#56 Clownwarlord

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 12:41 PM

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#57 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 12:53 PM

I'm on board with VOIP but it must have the ability to mute players. Then I'm never going to click ready again, the 20 second wait time will help me weed out the people I need to mute.

#58 Flying Blind

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 01:25 PM

people talk about using teamspeak etc. as if that gave you comms to the whole team and not just the up to 4 people you can put together in a premade. 12 man drop don't count obviously, but sure would be nice to be able to talk to the whole team

#59 Lukoi Banacek

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 02:38 PM

FB,

One thing to note about your "mute" button invalidating the argument of people abusing VOIP is based on a pretty glaring assumption....if PGI cannot be bothered to have an ignore function for chat (common in MMOs for years now), will they remember a mute key for VOIP?

I would be fine personally with VOIP after tweaks to game balance, tighter MM, launch modules and FPM/PPM and CW (so fifth?), IF they can be bothered to include that ooooone tiny bit of functionality so I ignore it at will.

#60 Ardney

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 05:30 PM

Not against the idea of a comm rose but I believe there are scenarios where voice would just work better, such as when the unexpected happens (run into an ambush, for instance) and you need to multi-task.

As for the correct way to structure it so as to minimize potential for abuse and maximize usability, I had a couple thoughts on that a few days back and posted them here.





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