Tesunie, on 11 March 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:
And the people at BT know of every possible site that might or might not be accurate...
And, you still have failed to post ANYTHING we can see besides a quote from a book with a page number attached, unto which I'm not spending money so I can debate with you. You aren't that special.
Okay. Here is a hint. I don't care about the rest, as most of that was politics within the grand council. Prove that the trial was ended prematurely, giving Wolf a "fake" victory.
For not defeating Comstar, they seemed to have been on only clan to actually make it to not just one but both of their targets. Also against more experienced soldiers. Also against Comstar reinforcements. Also against 4 full armies of Comstar. ALSO, in order for the trial to end, Comstar and the clans had to agree it was over... Need I go on? (1)
Buuttt... you're just going to ignore me anyway. Don't even know why I continue to respond.
Clan wolf was not weak. They were one of the top 4 clans (2). Guess why, in MW2, it was clan Wolf and Clan Falcon. Not Clan Falcon and Smoke Jaguar... Even then, Clan Wolf has been the only clan to survive being absorbed by another clan, for whatever reason. No other clan has come back from an absorption to my knowledge.
If Wolf is weak, then Ghost Bear was weaker (3). They ran away from the clan space with their tails between their legs, and ran into the waiting arms of the Inner Sphere. They "corrupted" themselves by joining and merging with the Inner Sphere state, becoming no longer Clan Ghost Bear, but the Ghost Bear Republic. Poor poor weak Ghost Bear...
And Smoke Jaguar was weak (4) and traitorous for trying to bend the council and the clans to their will and protect them from, basically, a trial of annihilation issued from the Inner Sphere. They were so weak and unclan like, that they tried to get the other clans to help them out in a one on one trial, Inner Sphere "Star League" vs Clan Smoke Jaguar.
Oh, we could go on. On and on. On and on and on about how unclan like the clans can really be. How traitorous they all have been to the vision of Alexander... I mean Nicolas Kerensky. The Murderer of his own brother. The great deceiver of the clans, who, in an un-clan-like move tricked the entire clan council into killing an entire clan who could push for murder charges on him. (5) Then somehow became a hero, who placed a "will" upon the clans.
And the Nova Cats are also weak, (6) as they ended up siding with the Inner Sphere. They ended up getting (in an unclan like fashion too) jumped on before their moving due date to evac clan space. Because they got attached in a dishonorable sneak attach ahead of the scheduled time. All because they followed the true will of the Clans, and disobeyed the "corrupt" clan council, who stood by and watched as Nova Cat got attacked in such a low, and dishonorable way...
Shall we continue? Of course, you shall continue to ignore anything I present as not canon (7), so...
The people at BT determine what is canon and what is not. I get it doesn't suit you, I really do. But its not my call.
I think it's pretty unfair that if you challenge me and I can refute it I am arguing, but if I challenge you and you cannot refute it (with canon) I am ignoring you. I don't think I have ignored anyone here (even those who put their fingers in their ears and cry na na na na na).
All I am saying is this is what is in canon, and happy to review any other canon sources that you think might refute it. In the last few days some people have been attacking my canon based arguments with non canon sources and I said nope, that doesn't fly.
I can't change that Copyright laws don't permit BT's IP to be put up on the net. I guess they kinda see it as a way of ensuring revenue. So I am only going to quote canon sources and leave it up to you. If you want to call me a liar, fine. I'll still know I am right. I have never said you're not entitled to your non canon view of the universe, just that it is a non canon view. BUt honestly, I do think if you think I am lying after all the posts and conversations I have put up then I think that's a pretty sad thing for you. I am genuinely putting up canon and I invite anyone who wants to debate canon to put up their views / sources.
(1) Clan Wolf Sourcebook pg 51, "Clan Wolf inflicted heavy enough damage on the Comstar forces that the 13th Army was committed to the mountains. Before the new Constar force could join the engagement however, the battle for Tukayyid ended".
Yes of course Comstar had to agree. Lets see how this might have went.
Ulric, We're done, we concede victory to Comstar
Focht, Ummm, OK. ceasefire then?
Or are you suggesting the humanitarum in Focht would have prefered to keep the battle going after they won to pad out the kill counts? You probably should go on. I'd certainly like to know where Comstar magically created another 4 full armies that had not seen action on Tukayyid, I have no source book that implies they held back a reserve of that size. Indeed, that sort of reserve suggests that Comstar was much bigger than published data.
(2) On what basis? You can't argue they were in the first wave of the Invasion Clans because they never fought a trial for a position. I have shown consistently that Clan Wolf was defeated by other Clans, their achievements in the IS were not comparable to other Clans (heck, do you realise that the Wolves fought 7 FC RCT's in the first four waves, and Clan Jade Falcon fought 7 in the first wave. Doesn't that tell you anything about the size of the battles fought by Clan Wolf vs the size of the battles fought (in this case) by Jade Falcon. Results, bids all that stuff to one side for a moment, canon shows that the defenders against the Clan Wolf invasion corridor were less, by a very large margin.
If you can show me a canon source that supports Clan Wolf as being a superior Clan you have got this thread back on track because thats exactly what I asked for in the original debating. A Canon source that refutes what I can show in canon.
If you are suggesting that the MW2 team marketed their product on the basis of two of the most popular clans in that decade, then that's probably a weak argument. Just saying.
(3) Perhaps they were, I never made a direct contrast to Ghost Bear. If you'd like to build a case around that I'd be happy to discuss the merits. But they didn't run away to join the Inner Sphere, they relocated their population to the worlds they had won. Clans have changed their names, Clan Jade Wolf for example, or Clan Sea Fox. I don't see that as a direct link to any weakness but sure, happy to discuss.
(4) Well they did loose right? And the Grand Council did not support them right? Politicing has a place in Clan culture, treachery does not.
(5) You got a canon source that demonstrates this. I have several that hint at the possibility, and often these sources are ostensibily the wronged parties so they need to be looked at objectivily, but if you have something unequovicable I'm happy to discuss. But then again, I think I already told you before I personally believe Nicholas was a dictator and McEvedy got the short end of the stick. The difference is I know that opinion is not definitive in canon.
(6) I'm going to leave this one alone at the moment only because you mentioned before that you have canon sources that substaniate a view here. At the time I said I agree with your view but I will leave this uncommented on so as to not taint any case you might present with your canon sources.
(7) No, not ignore. In fact as above I don't think I have ignored anyone (that was Shar). But if you represent something as an opinion on canon and I ask for the canon source, it shouldn't be a big deal to name the source. If you don't have a canon source, it shouldn't be a big deal that we call it out as a non canon opinion.
Having said that, only your first points raised here goes towards refuting the canon that I have demonstrated. I say Clan Wolf was weaker than other Clans 3048 - 3058 because
- They lost repeatedly to other Clans in major interclan trials
- They did not earn a place in the Invasion, they were gifted it
- They had the easiest Invasion corridor facing the weakest IS army that faced the Clans
- The did not finish their battle at Tukayyid and received a JUDGED victory due to holding the objectives before Comstar forces counter attacked.
- They were found guilty by the Grand Council of treachery, their Khans found unfit to rule and Absorbed
So please tell me again how I am ignoring you when I provide patient detailed response (which admittably are not agreeing with you) to discuss points completly unrelated to the canon I have demonstrated.
Lets flip this around.
From 3048 to 3058, what are your Canon sources that convince you that Clan Wolf was a superior military force. Maybe if we start on your side we can progress.
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