38 replies to this topic

[Fyrwulf]

Seriously, it's like everybody who has it is Justin Allard or something. I'm tired of having my team mates in contact with the enemy in my rear and there's no indication on the map and the next thing I know I'm getting owned from behind. Seriously, **** sloth much? I think these are the conditions that ECM coverage should drop.

1) If you're firing, a positional indicator should pop up.
2) If you're in line of sight of the enemy, you should have a carrot right above your head.

[Striker1980]

The position indicator when firing is an interesting idea when team mates have eyes on only, however line of sight is the only practical means 'mechs have of detecting one another and thus the whole point of ECM, it effects the 'mechs targeting and detection systems.

If we went with what you are suggesting ECM would become entirely useless.

Also I've snuck up on targets before without ECM and still panned them as they do not get the targeting indicator unless they see you or their team mates lock onto you. This is a mechanic to allow experienced pilots to get the drop on zoomed in snipers who aren't paying attention to their environment and threats.

[Tesunie]

In lore, ECM helped mechs take down targets without giving away their position. It disable C3 computers (what we all have built into the game for free) that are within it's effects. Actually, ECM is suppose to block C3 signals that pass through it's bubble, which it does not do right now (thankfully).

However, ECM was not suppose to hinder normal missile locks, only remove bonuses from LRM upgrades (and make SSRMs be used as normal SRMs).

Be thankful ECM doesn't block in game chat anymore like it use to. Couldn't even call out for help back then, or location...

[Fyrwulf]

Striker1980, on 07 March 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

If we went with what you are suggesting ECM would become entirely useless.

I meant with eyes on. C3 comps in the tabletop game are sort of like a ******** IVIS, but I put that down to the fact that the original designers only had half a clue about military operations at the tactical level and none at the strategic level. I've argued on the BT forums about a whole slew of stuff that's wrong from a military perspective, but the present developers seem disinclined to go their own direction (see making the Dark Ages cannon).
3
On the other hand, PGI seems willing to let the players write their own history from 3050 on, so I have no problems believing that the in-game C3 will function like IVIS actually does, which means if you fire you're spotted.

[Solis Obscuri]

Tesunie, on 07 March 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

In lore, ECM helped mechs take down targets without giving away their position. It disable C3 computers (what we all have built into the game for free) that are within it's effects. Actually, ECM is suppose to block C3 signals that pass through it's bubble, which it does not do right now (thankfully).

However, ECM was not suppose to hinder normal missile locks, only remove bonuses from LRM upgrades (and make SSRMs be used as normal SRMs).

Be thankful ECM doesn't block in game chat anymore like it use to. Couldn't even call out for help back then, or location...

There are no C3 computers in MWO. We don't have any system that improves chance to hit based on telemetry from units closer to the enemy... because we don't have any range penalties to begin with (except perhaps projectile velocity). We do however get one TT ability of BAP for free, the ability to gather detailed information about target damage and equipment status.

MWO operates according to double-blind rules that allow you to observe enemy position so long as a friendly unit has LoS, with the notable exception of ECM. Instead of just limiting enemy sensor range under low-visibility situations against the unit carrying ECM only, in MWO it provides full-team coverage from targeting using either sensor modes or visual detection. Guardian ECM is also not supposed to affect SSRMs, though Angles ECM (which comes out in a decade or so) does.

ECM has never prevented typing messages in MWO, though. But it used to remove your teammates from your minimap display if they entered the field, creating friendly fire issues in addition to its many other broken bonuses.

[Tesunie]

Solis Obscuri, on 07 March 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

There are no C3 computers in MWO. We don't have any system that improves chance to hit based on telemetry from units closer to the enemy... because we don't have any range penalties to begin with (except perhaps projectile velocity). We do however get one TT ability of BAP for free, the ability to gather detailed information about target damage and equipment status.

MWO operates according to double-blind rules that allow you to observe enemy position so long as a friendly unit has LoS, with the notable exception of ECM. Instead of just limiting enemy sensor range under low-visibility situations against the unit carrying ECM only, in MWO it provides full-team coverage from targeting using either sensor modes or visual detection. Guardian ECM is also not supposed to affect SSRMs, though Angles ECM (which comes out in a decade or so) does.

ECM has never prevented typing messages in MWO, though. But it used to remove your teammates from your minimap display if they entered the field, creating friendly fire issues in addition to its many other broken bonuses.

Okay, let me explain this. We all have C3 computers, which allow us to share target information and position with friendly units. This helps you "range find" and helps you by letting people lock on with LRMs onto targets they themselves can not see. It is, for all intents and purposes, C3.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM

Quote

In Tournament-level gameplay, the use of an ECM suite is to nullify the effects of other electronics, such as missile beacons, active probes, and fire control systems. It can also cut a unit off from a C3 Network.

Quote

• In MechWarrior IV: Mercenaries, the ECM is a selectable component for certain 'Mechs. It increases missile lock time for enemies and reduces the range at which the 'Mech can be detected.
  
• In MechCommander 2, the ECM is also a component for certain 'Mechs. It makes the 'Mech in question undetectable by sensors. It appears to have no effect on missiles, due to the way in which the game handles weapons fire.

Yes, the system does seem to run more like Angle ECM than Guardian ECM, but that's been a common complaint so far.


And if you want to hear my opinion, I think that you shouldn't see any "red triangle" above their heads just for being able to see them, but if you have your reticule over them, you should be able to at least lock on to them for LRM/SSRM fire. This would make it difficult to keep a lock, but not impossible. Basically TAG would be needed for it's benefits, not to cut through ECM. However, I actually (despite my opinion) don't mind the current ECM, compared to what it once was. I do think it could use farther tuning though. It's needs some more tweaks, but not reduced to being a piece of equipment no one will take.</p>

[Johny Rocket]

I do hate ecm with a passion, but that has a lot more to do with my fighting style. My only mech is a Stalker 3F, usually loaded with 3 lrm15s and 2 large lasers. I hang to the back of the crowd and and provide support for my teammates moves. I try to spread my fire out across as many targets as possible basically just to keep as many heads ducked as I can(it pays great bonuses). I also watch for targets like ecm Atli, I get a personal satisfaction out of killing those.

An ecm is usually involved in my demise. Having my settings adjusted for smooth targeting, an encounter with multiple lights under an ecm is usually the end.
The problem with this isn't so much the ecm as it is with teammates. To many glory hunters. About half the matches I play my lance takes off for the middle at twice my top speed and Im left to fend for myself. Often they go the wrong direction right for our other lances instead of toward the nearest red start point.
I laugh it off though because its their loss of the 1620 lrms I would drop on the enemy, the cover they would have, and the enemies they could fight because Im usually a high priority target. Everybody hates getting targeted by a stalker lrm boat.

An ecm would be worthless to me because as soon as I start pulling the trigger with chainfire set everyone knows where I am but my favorite lance mate and traveling partner is an ecm Atlas.

I say leave it like it is and worry about fixing the broken dx issue.

[Solis Obscuri]

Tesunie, on 07 March 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

Okay, let me explain this. We all have C3 computers, which allow us to share target information and position with friendly units. This helps you "range find" and helps you by letting people lock on with LRMs onto targets they themselves can not see. It is, for all intents and purposes, C3.

C3 has a much more specific function in TT play; the functionality we have now (except for the target info gathering) would all amount to being part of the basic battlemech sensors and communications equipment functionality. C3 does not work for missile systems; indirect fire capability is part of the basic rules and... well, here are some links where I pulled a bunch of quotes from the manuals:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1539581

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1594860

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1755138

[Tesunie]

Solis Obscuri, on 09 March 2014 - 12:12 AM, said:

C3 has a much more specific function in TT play; the functionality we have now (except for the target info gathering) would all amount to being part of the basic battlemech sensors and communications equipment functionality. C3 does not work for missile systems; indirect fire capability is part of the basic rules and... well, here are some links where I pulled a bunch of quotes from the manuals:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1539581

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1594860

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1755138

Sensors have been interpreted in many different ways through the Mechwarrior game line. Some will let you see "EVERYTHING" within a bubble. Others will show you less. Some you can even switch between active and passive sensors. This version plays sensors as you can only gather information from objects/mechs you can actively see. This means that the built in C3 computer we all have is what lets us share target information, such as damage display, target location, target type, etc.

ECM primarily turns off these sensors, preventing one from normally sharing this data. With the way our current system of data gathering is, ECM has to disable lock on ability. Otherwise we would still probably share data to our teammates for the most part. ECM also needs to disable the giant red triangle that appears over target's heads, as if it doesn't than just glancing in a mech's direction would give away it's position by the giant glaring red triangle floating above their head, even if they made it so you couldn't lock.

Most times in Mechwarrior, ECM cuts sensor ranges, normally close to half. I know that in MW4, ECM cut your sensor range down depending on several factors.
- Normal active sensors had a range of 1000m (I believe).
- Active sensors would detect a mech with passive sensors on at 750m.
- Active sensors couldn't detect an ECM mech till 750m, if the ECM mech also had Active sensors on.
- Active sensors couldn't detect an ECM mech till 500m (I believe) if the ECM mech had passive sensors on.
- Passive sensors worked on targets within 500m (I believe).
- I also believe that Passive sensor ranges would be effected by the targets Active/Passive sensor setting, as well as ECM.

So, an ECM mech willing to run with passive sensors could get fairly close to an enemy before sensors could pick them up in MW4. (Yet, very often, my opponents seem to see me from behind that hill, and snip my cockpit out as soon as it raised above the ridge to look around, at around 1000m out...)


MW:O took a different sensor approach (for the moment), and gave everyone some "limited" C3 computer abilities, such as sharing target locks, target position/range, etc. This let LRMs work more fluidly in their interpretation of the Battletech universe, among other things. I also don't know about you, but I find it easier to hit targets outside 1000m range if I have someone else who is spotting the target. This lets me target someone outside my own sensor range (of 800-1000m), providing a nice red box to "shoot in the center of". So, it does also help with some "range penalty compensation".



Looking at what the C3 computer does in table top, how would you suggest they implement it into the game? Weapons auto lock onto the target? That would be bad. A zoom window showing the target from your allies position? Cryengine really doesn't like to render something within something else. Look at the Advance Zoom module, and it's long history of problems (some of which are still there). These are just a few concepts I can think of, and I don't think either one would work as well as the current "free C3" already in the game.

If you have suggestions on how you feel C3 should be placed into the game, as well as sensors, say them. Recall this is a player vs player environment, so they can't give one player an advantage over another (like seismic, the legal wall hack, was). It has to be able to also work with the Cry Engine platform.


One last thing for you to consider, this is a first person shooter, not a turn based game. There are no dice to determine events. Some things that work great in the Table Top game wont work so well here in a literal translation (like the LBxAC10 for an example, or SSRMs). Some things will have to get altered to fit the first person shooter that this game is, while still being fun, exciting and interesting.

[ShinVector]

Fyrwulf, on 07 March 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Seriously, it's like everybody who has it is Justin Allard or something. I'm tired of having my team mates in contact with the enemy in my rear and there's no indication on the map and the next thing I know I'm getting owned from behind. Seriously, **** sloth much? I think these are the conditions that ECM coverage should drop.

1) If you're firing, a positional indicator should pop up.
2) If you're in line of sight of the enemy, you should have a carrot right above your head.

What is probably sad OP is that ECM has already been nerf ALOT... A hell of ALOT... And you still can't adapt ?
Did you know before the nerfing that an friendly mech under ECM jamming did NOT appear in targeting at all ?

Play the game some more and try to improve your situational awareness why don't you ?
Looking behind once in a while and siesmic probably helps too..
Lastly if you are not planning to stay with the rest of the team, be prepared to ambushed at any time.

Edited: typos.

Edited by ShinVector, 09 March 2014 - 05:13 PM.

[ShinVector]

Solis Obscuri, on 07 March 2014 - 06:14 PM, said:

ECM has never prevented typing messages in MWO, though. But it used to remove your teammates from your minimap display if they entered the field, creating friendly fire issues in addition to its many other broken bonuses.

NO. It did block chat ! This was part of the original implementation of ECM so, once you were under ECM jamming you are toasted.
Extremely powerful and the hard counter to the Streak Cat!

[Rasc4l]

My take on the never-ending ECM debate can be found in the signature...

[Tesunie]

ShinVector, on 09 March 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

NO. It did block chat ! This was part of the original implementation of ECM so, once you were under ECM jamming you are toasted.
Extremely powerful and the hard counter to the Streak Cat!

And also gave anyone on out of game comms a huge advantage over anyone else, which was another problem...
But I'm not complaining about people on comms, just in this one case it was a problem. They could communicate, and everyone else couldn't even call for help if they needed it...

[ShinVector]

Rasc4l, on 09 March 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

My take on the never-ending ECM debate can be found in the signature...

You know now that I think about it again.. I was really glad that they allowed us to see which mechs are friendly when mechs are under ECM jamming now....

It the past you couldn't.. You could only see mechs with no targeting.. It was hard.. Really hard.. that even if you could shoot.. You might be shooting to your own allies.

Tesunie, on 09 March 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

And also gave anyone on out of game comms a huge advantage over anyone else, which was another problem...
But I'm not complaining about people on comms, just in this one case it was a problem. They could communicate, and everyone else couldn't even call for help if they needed it...

The 4 Man Craven was the thing back then... LOL.. with OP damage on Streaks.. LOLzz.... Absolute cheese...

[Tesunie]

ShinVector, on 09 March 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

It the past you couldn't.. You could only see mechs with no targeting.. It was hard.. Really hard.. that even if you could shoot.. You might be shooting to your own allies.



The 4 Man Craven was the thing back then... LOL.. with OP damage on Streaks.. LOLzz.... Absolute cheese...

I remember that! Forgot it also use to knock out FF indicators too... Ahh... the good old days when it was really something to complain about ECM...

I recall fighting those groups! MY GOODNESS! Some of those where just no fair. My brother and I would try to take them down. He could do well against them in his own Raven (with his lasers) and I could hold my own (as in, slowly losing) in my Cicada... (or was I in something else then...? Can't recall. Played so many mechs at all different times in the games life!)

[zgrssd]

As I see it the primary purpose of ECM is to counter LRM. LRM is the only indirect fire weapon and also only really usefull if used indirectly (because LRM boats are pretty vulnerable armor and speed wise). And it is also damn usefull if used indirectly, because it has long range and limited tracking. Shielding your spotters is among the most powerfull use for ECM (as iti allows you to fire without being fired upon).
They can be easily countered by TAG. A ECM in counter mode. Or the CHAT.

Yes, if I see somehing that is not showing up the map, I tell people about it in the Team-Chat.
Those 4 3rd Person probes in the hills 2 klicks away? Chat
ECM shielded lance or single guy? Chat
Foes walking just outside of effective weapon/sensor range? Chat.
Team Chat button. "[Number of foes] ECM [Sector of map]". One buttong. plus is 8 charters (Spaces inlcuded). 8 byte that can make a big difference between winning and loosing.

I do agree that it is a nuisance if people are to lazy to use chat for this information. Maybe mark a allied mech if it took hits or is has incomming missiles. Remove mark after 5 seconds without either of those. It would help get the inforamtion around without having to use Chat. And a "being hit" message needs a lot less bandwith then targetting data.

Also, don't forget that ECM has drawbacks: Only certain mech variants have even ECM. Those mechs have less room for actual weaponry, armor and munition. Plus maybe unvavorable weapon slots.

Finally this is game is PvP exclusively.
If everybody is equally skilled and everything is balanced perfectly you still have a loose chance of about 50%. In fact you have too, or the game is not perfectly balanced and not everyone is equalyl skilled.
Normally I do not like to play PvP because of that 50% loss chance, but I seem to make an exception for MWO. Heck, I do not even worry if I die in combat. As long as I did enough damage, gave enough targetting/chat information and caused enough distraction my team will have it's fair chance of winning after I am done.
Some games (World of Tank in particular) force/entice people a lot more towards glory hunting/less teamplay. MWO avoids that by making the rewards for team win high, death a non-issue and assits/savior/spotting rewards high.

[Grendel408]

Fyrwulf, on 07 March 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

Seriously, it's like everybody who has it is Justin Allard or something. I'm tired of having my team mates in contact with the enemy in my rear and there's no indication on the map and the next thing I know I'm getting owned from behind. Seriously, **** sloth much? I think these are the conditions that ECM coverage should drop.

1) If you're firing, a positional indicator should pop up.
2) If you're in line of sight of the enemy, you should have a carrot right above your head.

ECM has been enabled for quite some time now... even tuned... they even later added the BAP to help counter ECM for Mechs unable to carry ECM to effectively counter it that way... it's working as intended, with exception to Base Turrets ignoring ECM for the time being until the Devs fix that... ECM works... as intended. And with the limited number of Mechs available to carry ECM, it still provides players with a variety of Mechs to choose from if they want to use it... or not and can still counter it IF they want to equip a 1.5 ton/$400k Cbill piece of equipment (within x meters of range to ECM enemy unit). [typo]

Edited by Grendel408, 10 March 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[Ximius]

The issue with ECM is that it makes players feel helpless. Its basically a magic invisibility bubble that only a handful of mechs can equip - have a mech that you like playing, sorry no ECM. I know there are strategies to getting around it but for lots of players, its just not a fun element of the game which is why this debate continues on, and on, and on.

The fact is that this is a mech game. With giant 100 ton robots. Having a light with ECM and a PPC that nukes half the team without anyone being able to track it down just isnt fun. Thats the end of it. And people are going to complain about it until that changes.

Its just one of the many balance issues that have kept a large number of core supporters from spending any additional money on this game until it improves - but then again from what we've seen they are more concerned with just attracting new players rather than keeping the old ones, so YMMV.

[Grendel408]

The issue is not ECM at all... it's the player's unwillingness to adapt and field a single piece of equipment to help counter ECM... the Beagle Active Probe.... Not only can it counter ECM once it gets within range of the Mech... it also increases your radar range and target information gathering speed. I notice ECM more prevalent in 12man Matches vs the regular 4man(-/+) groups that drop. I have my RVN-3L equipped with ECM, BAP, TAG, 2 MLs and 2 SSRM2s... among other things in the load-out. But keep in mind that if you have ECM and BAP, BAP will not counter ECM as ECM is already equipped and is the primary counter equipment to enemy ECM... BAP was added as a balance factor to allow more Mechs not capable of carrying ECM to counter the enemy equipped Mechs. Now... add my RVN-3L with it's load-out... and add in 4 modules, Adv. Sensor Range, Adv. Target Decay, Adv. Target Info, and Improved Artillery for fun... now you have a Mech designed specifically for it's role. People hate my Raven. But... I still die in it... just as much as I do in my ECM Spider and Commando... or Cicada. If a Light Mech is giving your team trouble because everyone decided to take Heavies and Assaults... well, that's not the Light Mech's fault... he/she's playing as they prefer to play as much as the next Atlas pilot does... once the new Weigh Restrictions come into play with match-making... things should improve as far as Mechs go and having a balance... but, it's not much to equip a 1.5 ton piece of equipment on a non-ECM Mech.

[Ximius]

Grendel408, on 11 March 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

The issue is not ECM at all... it's the player's unwillingness to adapt and field a single piece of equipment to help counter ECM... the Beagle Active Probe.... Not only can it counter ECM once it gets within range of the Mech... it also increases your radar range and target information gathering speed. I notice ECM more prevalent in 12man Matches vs the regular 4man(-/+) groups that drop. I have my RVN-3L equipped with ECM, BAP, TAG, 2 MLs and 2 SSRM2s... among other things in the load-out. But keep in mind that if you have ECM and BAP, BAP will not counter ECM as ECM is already equipped and is the primary counter equipment to enemy ECM... BAP was added as a balance factor to allow more Mechs not capable of carrying ECM to counter the enemy equipped Mechs. Now... add my RVN-3L with it's load-out... and add in 4 modules, Adv. Sensor Range, Adv. Target Decay, Adv. Target Info, and Improved Artillery for fun... now you have a Mech designed specifically for it's role. People hate my Raven. But... I still die in it... just as much as I do in my ECM Spider and Commando... or Cicada. If a Light Mech is giving your team trouble because everyone decided to take Heavies and Assaults... well, that's not the Light Mech's fault... he/she's playing as they prefer to play as much as the next Atlas pilot does... once the new Weigh Restrictions come into play with match-making... things should improve as far as Mechs go and having a balance... but, it's not much to equip a 1.5 ton piece of equipment on a non-ECM Mech.

Sorry but BAP does NOT counter ECM. BAP only counters it effectively in some ridiculously small band of range. That band is both 1) hard to keep consistent even for experienced players and 2) bewildering for new players. This goes right back to my point above which is that ECM is ONLY fun for the person weilding it, while the other 12 people on the other side feel cheated. I am sure that you personally do love it, but it makes people leave the game, and thats not good for anyone here.