108 replies to this topic

[Haji1096]

It seems like no thought was put into the placement or function of what turrets are supposed to do. PGI probably made them too strong because its easier to dial it back to the "right" level than it is to dial them forward to when they are effective.


Small maps don't need turrets. What are you supposed to even do as a light mech on River City or Forest Colony in Assault mode ? Turret sphere of influence is too large, they hamper movement which makes for a static movement game. Right now the smart thing for both teams to do is find an easily defensible position with the turrets covering one flank....and wait for the other team to get impatient.

[oldradagast]

Dawnstealer, on 11 March 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

Really, it comes down to this: Battlemechs, lore-wise, are supposed to be the undisputed kings of the battlefield. Turrets should be annoying deterrents, the kind of things that could destroy a legged, damaged Spider limping its way slowly towards a base, but these things pack as much firepower as a medium mech and are more accurate than most pilots.

As others have pointed out, with turrets like this, why do we have mechs? Mechs are deadly because they're things that tanks (in the game) aren't: more heavily armored, more able to dissipate heat, quicker, more maneuverable, more responsive, able to mount more weapons. And now here comes a turret that never misses that can spam LRMs or a laser-AC20. HIGHLY accurately.

Down the weapons to a single ML, change the refire rate of the LRM5s, make them subject to heat shut down. In the case of the LRM turrets, if you HAVE to keep them, give them an ammo limit. I have two tons of AMS ammo in my little Firestarter and I burned through it all in about a minute of looping too close to a base on Alpine while brawling.

Now I just stay far, far away from the bases, but on small maps like River City, it's pointless to even leave the base area unless your team is rolling over the enemy or you weigh over 70 tons.

Exactly. The turrets punish movement, make capping nearly impossible unless victory is forgone anyway (6 mechs left vs. 1 or some such thing) and are simply too powerful. The purpose of them, IMHO, was to prevent unchallenged "ninja caps" where the 2 teams somehow miss each other - this was far more common on large maps with the old spawn points, though I guess it could still happen. In short, the turrets are supposed to be annoying and way to buy a bit of time, not a series of immobile extra team mates with weapons and sensors that break the rules of the game: infinite LRM's that break ECM, perfect sensors, perfect aim, etc.

[Sinthrow]

I think they should drop to 1ml and lrm 5 to start. or drop to small lasers and lrm 10 that don't shoot till ememy is within 450m
they should slow down the cap not make it the game changer.

[Ngamok]

oldradagast, on 11 March 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

Exactly. The turrets punish movement, make capping nearly impossible unless victory is forgone anyway (6 mechs left vs. 1 or some such thing) and are simply too powerful. The purpose of them, IMHO, was to prevent unchallenged "ninja caps" where the 2 teams somehow miss each other - this was far more common on large maps with the old spawn points, though I guess it could still happen. In short, the turrets are supposed to be annoying and way to buy a bit of time, not a series of immobile extra team mates with weapons and sensors that break the rules of the game: infinite LRM's that break ECM, perfect sensors, perfect aim, etc.

Two teams that miss each other will just roll over the turrets if they are all there.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Evil Ed, on 10 March 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

But you never ever state that one team - equal to the other - can in a realistic way take down an equal strong team + 6 turrets.

if the other team was equally strong it would mean a stalemate would ensue -- adding turrets doesn't make much of a difference.

If a team of 12 clusters tightly together and tries to hide behind their turrets it only means a smart player will drop arty strikes on them and reap the benefits while people whine and miss out on opportunities.

Hiding behind turrets can be a disadvantage as well as a strength. Just like anything else.

Evil Ed, on 10 March 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

You have seen a couple of matches where the superior team is up 5-6 kills late in the game, and now goes for a "cap" because the know they will win anyway, kills the turrets and cap it out and by that came to the conclusion that turrets are "working". But that is just skirmish with an alternative way to win when one team is superior - nothing else.

I saw a game where one team was up 11 to 1.

Last survivor was a fresh atlas who stood on the sidelines while his team was fighting. He hid in base. Between atlas and base turrets 7-8 on the other team died before it was over. Not because turrets are overpowered or unfair. They simply made a lot of mistakes and attacked 1 by 1 instead of attacking all at once like they should have.

The entertainment value alone is more than worth any additional headaches turrets might present.

And no things like that don't happen in skirmish. It isn't a mere "alternative" to it.

Evil Ed, on 10 March 2014 - 11:44 PM, said:

The "methods" are already developed: Get an early kill if the enemy is stupid enough to go to close, rtb and wait them out. The turrets have provided the teams with one "hill" or "fortress" each, why go down in the valley and get killed if you don't have to?

The flavour that assault had, "Take the risk to send a few to cap?", "Do we have scouts on both flanks?", "How many do you see, is it all?", "Where are they?", "Damn it, they all went tunnel!", "They are heavy, step on cap to force them to separete", is now gone. It's just skrimish with alternative, often boring, end.

And what about games where bases are capped without a single shot being fired? That was worse than turrets.

It isnt like there aren't positive tangible benefits being gained by the addition of base turrets. It does eliminate a lot of the cheap capping aspect that ruined the experience for a lot of people.

Dawnstealer, on 11 March 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

Really, it comes down to this: Battlemechs, lore-wise, are supposed to be the undisputed kings of the battlefield. Turrets should be annoying deterrents, the kind of things that could destroy a legged, damaged Spider limping its way slowly towards a base, but these things pack as much firepower as a medium mech and are more accurate than most pilots.

The loadout from a Calliope turret in mechwarrior 4 was heavier than turrets in this game.

Something like -

2 ER medium lasers
2 LRM 15's

Mech commander 2 had gauss rifle turrets that were accurate at long range.

We're getting off easy as base defenses go.

I might even suggest turrets should be upgraded with heavier weapons as they're too easy to kill & fail to offer legitimate resistance to serious attack.

[MustrumRidcully]

Ngamok, on 11 March 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

Two teams that miss each other will just roll over the turrets if they are all there.

Which probably means that the implementation of turrets did not achieve the desired objectives.


Wouldn't be the first time. I'd like to remind people of Repair & Rearm ("That will make people play smarter, no longer rushing into fights, because the damage will cost them" => Suicide Farmers + Torso-Twisting as defensive tactic becomes more expensive then just dying) or 3PV ("This will allow people to get a better feeling of torso twist and movement" => "Legs barely visible, no mini-map means any noob will want out of that view ASAP with no learning effect but bonus frustration elements for everyone")

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 13 March 2014 - 04:11 AM.

[Goose]

… So, to me, the point of the defences was to address carp about how rare it was to see a comeback.

It would seem any light without an ER Large or two really shouldn't play Assault anymore.

How soon will we see Assault paydays get boosted to account for all the 15 minute "by desicion" victories?

Theamatically, poured concret bunkers are just wrong on all the maps that didn't start out as part of Teh Maginot Line; Trailered Feild Guns would make much more sense.

The turrents need that 90% thing for them to live long enough to fire, don't they?

Small Hovers, with oreders to stay within a quarter klick of the self-propled radio shack, would be the next step; Being hovers, you could ignore many of the terrain issues other tanks would have … Saracens and Scimitarts seem to be the order of the day.

… How would NPC Autocannons play out?

[Joseph Mallan]

Goose, on 13 March 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

… So, to me, the point of the defences was to address carp about how rare it was to see a comeback.

It would seem any light without an ER Large or two really shouldn't play Assault anymore.

How soon will we see Assault paydays get boosted to account for all the 15 minute "by desicion" victories?

Theamatically, poured concret bunkers are just wrong on all the maps that didn't start out as part of Teh Maginot Line; Trailered Feild Guns would make much more sense.

The turrents need that 90% thing for them to live long enough to fire, don't they?

Small Hovers, with oreders to stay within a quarter klick of the self-propled radio shack, would be the next step; Being hovers, you could ignore many of the terrain issues other tanks would have … Saracens and Scimitarts seem to be the order of the day.

… How would NPC Autocannons play out?

Saladin! For most tears in a combat zone! 130KpH 200mm AC20 Baby!!!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 March 2014 - 10:17 AM.

[Hellen Wheels]

I Zeratul I, on 11 March 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

I saw a game where one team was up 11 to 1.

Last survivor was a fresh atlas who stood on the sidelines while his team was fighting. He hid in base. Between atlas and base turrets 7-8 on the other team died before it was over. Not because turrets are overpowered or unfair. They simply made a lot of mistakes and attacked 1 by 1 instead of attacking all at once like they should have.

The entertainment value alone is more than worth any additional headaches turrets might present.

Was that on HPG? Sounds like I was that Atlas. Just to set the record straight: I didn't "hide" at the base. I was left there in that slow-ass Atlas while 11 went to fight Solaris-style in the middle of the map....where that Atlas is just so much sitting duck. The only option to have any chance at all in it on that map is to camp the base and hope for a team roll, or what you just described: they approached one by one, and the turrets picked them off easily after I had stripped their armor with the LRMs.

BTW, the turrets got all credit for the kills, I just got assists, even when it looked like I got the kill. Sorry to drag it out, but I hope you found it at least a bit entertaining. I did.