29 replies to this topic

[Sigmund Sauer]

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this. If it's not please tell me which forum I should post it on.

I was just wondering what the lore is for the interplanetary laws on the use of WMDs such as Nukes in the MechWarrior Universe.

Is there a limit on the megatons used for each nuke or are no nukes allowed/legal to use.

Also what WMDs are there in the MechWarrior Universe? I know there's nukes but what about some sci-fi weaponry. And are there limits on them for use in war and battle?

[Alaskan Nobody]

During the first few succession wars they very nearly nuked themselves out of existence.

Nukes exist - but very very very few (read: as far as I am aware just the crazies in the Word of Blake) are willing to actually use them.

[Egomane]

Ares Conventions - Everything you need to know about the rules and regulations for WMDs in the Battletech universe

Word of Blake later broke that treaty (well, they never signed it in the first place) and bombed big parts of the inner sphere with nukes in their Jihad.

[Karl Streiger]

Hey we only used small nukes - and we were not alone - 5th Fusillers did, the Regulans did in 54...
nukes are quiete common - and ComStar had the most....
there are 4 sizes:
Davy Crocket - 1 KT (can be fired by Arrow IV)
Alamo - 10KT - a special Anti-Ship Rocket fired by Aerospace fighter
Santa Anna - 100KT - fired by a Killer Whale - Missile
and the Peacemaker with 1000KT - and fired by a Kraken T-Missile

Santa Anas where used to nuke Riga, St Louis and several other citys during Code White - on Terra. (ok fault of the ComGuards - they killed the wife and daughter of the precentor that had access to order the bombing.

[DarkDevilDancer]

Basically 2750 when the first succession war broke out they used everything nukes, biological weapons the works and alot of viable worlds were cleansed of all life, by the time they were done they'd destroyed all sources of high technology, warships were lost and could not be replaced because the ship yards needed to build them were also wiped out.

They swore off all WMD and agreed to only use conventional warfare this lasted until 3068 when the word of blake went batshit insane and launched their jihad, they freely used nukes as and when they though they were needed and burnt their share of worlds.

[Sigmund Sauer]

Thanks guys! This really helpful information.

[Strum Wealh]

Sigmund Sauer, on 07 March 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this. If it's not please tell me which forum I should post it on.

I was just wondering what the lore is for the interplanetary laws on the use of WMDs such as Nukes in the MechWarrior Universe.

Is there a limit on the megatons used for each nuke or are no nukes allowed/legal to use.

Also what WMDs are there in the MechWarrior Universe? I know there's nukes but what about some sci-fi weaponry. And are there limits on them for use in war and battle?

Egomane, on 07 March 2014 - 11:16 PM, said:

Ares Conventions - Everything you need to know about the rules and regulations for WMDs in the Battletech universe

Word of Blake later broke that treaty (well, they never signed it in the first place) and bombed big parts of the inner sphere with nukes in their Jihad.

As a point of clarification: the Ares Conventions were "were upheld until rescission during the military buildup leading to the Reunification War [2577-2597] and formally [renounced] at the beginning of the First Succession War [2786-2821]".

"In 2579, as part of Ian Cameron's declaration of war, the Star League unilaterally passed Addendum II, rescinding the Conventions. Despite protests and the strict adherence of the Free Worlds League to the Conventions during the conflict, they were never reinstated. The many conflicts the SLDF participated in - such as the Hidden Wars or the Amaris Civil War were fought as total wars.
Finally, at the beginning of the First Succession War, Captain-General Kenyon Marik formally renounced the Conventions, with the other Successor Lords following suit."

The Ares Conventions themselves had very little to do with the general non-use of nuclear weapons through the Succession Wars; that is attributed to an informal code of conduct - a gentlemen's agreement among the Successor States, essentially - that came into being during the Third Succession War (2866-3025), to preserve what was left of the interstellar and planetary infrastructures. Said code of conduct, the "Honors of War", were essentially a blend of the ideals of the Ares Conventions and the romanticized versions of medieval chivalry.

[RedDragon]

Karl Streiger, on 08 March 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

Santa Anas where used to nuke Riga, St Louis and several other citys during Code White - on Terra. (ok fault of the ComGuards - they killed the wife and daughter of the precentor that had access to order the bombing.

The way I read that (one of the short stories, wasn't it?), the Manei Domini-commander told that precentor that his family had been killed by ComStar to make him compliant, as they did during the whole campaign (like spreading the lie that ComStar used nukes when it was Blake's Word all along).

[Blood Rose]

Nukes are a big no-no. The only 2 faction's to break the treaty (A clan I cant remember and the Blakists) where completely enialated by the other factions.

[CyclonerM]

Blood Rose, on 10 March 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

A clan I cant remember

The not-named-Clan is what you are looking for.

[LoPanShui]

Smoke Jaguars did it as well to suppress an insurgency.

[Kael Posavatz]

The use or non-use of nuclear weapons has fluctuated over the course of BattleTech's timeline.

The Ares Conventions basically outlawed the use of nukes w/in 75 k-kilometers of any inhabitable body, and banned R&D and use of any bio-chem weapons. They eventually led to the creation of the Star League which, ironically, later rescinded them.

One periphery power--I think it was the Taurian Concordat, but I don't have my source material at hand so I can't double check--never signed on and their defensive posture, unlike pretty much else, deliberately and explicitly condones the use of nuclear weapons.

The Amaris Coup was fought as a decade-long total war with nuclear attacks used by both sides. The Usurper also used chemical and biological agents.

Post Star League the Clans did away with weapons of mass destruction of all types. To the best of my knowledge this was never an explicit decision or decree, but it is universally held that such weapons are dishonorable and disgraceful and their use brings the condemnation--literally--of the Clans.

Post Star League the Inner Sphere stopped to play a hog-wild game of King of the Hill as each of the Successor Lords tried to convince his or her fellows that he or she was the new First Lord of he (defunct) Star League. Nukes were a common sight, orbital strikes ditto. After about the third game some Very Clever People realized that if it continued humanity was going to end up back in the stone age. While there were no formal rules created there were a set of Customary rules--ex. the customary rules of warfare as existed pre-Hague Convention IRL--that included forbidding the use of nukes, orbital strikes (the 'Heinlein Method' also known as 'find a big rock'), the protection of JumpShips, Zenith/Nadir power stations, key infrastructure necessary to sustain life (power stations, atmosphere plants, water purification facilities, etc), certain manufactories, and pretty much anything else on the verge of becoming 'LosTech'.

During the Invasion both sides managed to hold true to these self-imposed rules. The major exceptions were the Smoke Jaguar's orbital strike on Turtle Bay, and the Jade Falcon's destruction of a water treatment plant that they--unlike the Inner Sphere--could replace (and on a timely scale to boot).

The Word of Blake during the Jihad flung nukes--also chemical weapons and genetically engineered plagues--at pretty much everyone, which is why pretty much everyone decided they needed to be done away with.

I hope this helps.

[Strum Wealh]

Blood Rose, on 10 March 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

Nukes are a big no-no. The only 2 faction's to break the treaty (A clan I cant remember and the Blakists) where completely enialated by the other factions.

CyclonerM, on 10 March 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

The not-named-Clan is what you are looking for.

LoPanShui, on 10 March 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

Smoke Jaguars did it as well to suppress an insurgency.

IMO, Blood Rise was most likely thinking of the Smoke Jaguars, as it was their brutality during the Clan Invasion that served as part of the reason for why they were selected to be the target of the SLDF's attack.
(Though, I don't recall if CSJ actually used nukes when they bombarded Turtle Bay from orbit... )

Also, it should be noted that it was revealed in Betrayal of Ideals (by Blaine Lee Pardoe) that it was actually the Snow Ravens themselves who bombed their own genetic repository, with the bombing later blamed on the Wolverines as a matter of political expediency (as they wee already on-the-outs with Nicholas Kerensky) and as a matter of saving face for the Snow Ravens.
(Of course, it's not as though many (if any) in-universe Invasion-era Clanners would know that, or that they would believe it if told... )

Edited by Strum Wealh, 10 March 2014 - 08:07 AM.

[Fyrwulf]

Kael 17, on 10 March 2014 - 07:25 AM, said:

The Word of Blake during the Jihad flung nukes--also chemical weapons and genetically engineered plagues--at pretty much everyone, which is why pretty much everyone decided they needed to be done away with.

I hope this helps.

Before the Jihad, the Taurians were a by-word for nuclear weapons. After the Jihad, it was the Regulans of all people. Although, I have to note the Clans never did away with nuclear weapons, in fact the original invasion fleets had them in case the IS powers decided to uncork that particular genie.

Also, somebody mentioned that nukes are rare. They are not, they are just not used because the first two Succession Wars were MAD on an interstellar scale.

[Skylarr]

Clan Smoke Jaguar did not use nukes. They used Warships to Orbital Bombard on Turtle Bay.

Quote

Even with the assistance of ComStar administrators Smoke Jaguar warriors proved incapable of managing the masses, instead resorting to wholesale butchery in response to any resistance. This flaw was no more apparent than on the planet Turtle Bay, where the Smoke Jaguars had unknowingly captured Hohiro Kurita, son of Theodore Kurita, only to discover his identity after he had escaped during a jail break. Their search to recapture him was hamstrung by local Yakuza resistance, until finally Smoke Jaguar troops were withdrawn from the capital Edo and the city was leveled by the WarShip Sabre Cat. Even the most hardline Crusaders saw the orbital bombardment as an act of cowardice and Clan Wolf took the opportunity to swear it would bid away all naval assets for the rest of the campaign, forcing the rest of the Clans to follow suit to keep their honor.

While I was reading the novels I got the impressions that some of the clans did use Orbital Strikes on Inner Sphere force. Clan Wolf used this opportunity to have Warships removed from ground combat.

Quote

One of the original twenty Clans, Clan Wolverine was Annihilated in the years after Operation Klondike ( 2825) officially for having detonated nuclear devices to destroy a genetic repository of Clan Snow Raven and for opposing Nicholas Kerensky and the Clans as a whole. (The true story runs entirely different, but this is not known within the BattleTech universe.)
The Clans subsequently went to great lengths to purge Clan Wolverine from their history. They refer to the former Clan Wolverine only as the "Not-Named Clan". Instead of naming the "IIC"-style evolution of the Wolverine BattleMech (the Wolverine IIC), it was renamed the Conjurer (Hellhound). More than two hundred years after Clan Wolverine's annihilation, the mere comparison of a Clan warrior to an animal identified as wolverine, in a completely unrelated situation and by a person not accustomed to Clan society, was still considered a shocking insult that might elicit a violent response.

Edited by Skylarr, 10 March 2014 - 02:33 PM.

[Skylarr]

Blood Rose, on 10 March 2014 - 02:39 AM, said:

Nukes are a big no-no. The only 2 faction's to break the treaty (A clan I cant remember and the Blakists) where completely enialated by the other factions.

Quote

Algedi


Algedi orbits a huge star that takes up one-third of the sky. The sun allows no true night to fall on the world, and new residents frequently have their biological clocks thrown completely out of sync. As a result the bureaucracy of the world, and every world in the Algedi Prefecture, isn't as efficient as that of other prefectures. During the Succession Wars era the ISF maintained a large contingent on the world, but they kept a low profile. The ISF rated Algedi as a high priority because the Azami who lived on the world weren't technically subjects of the Dragon, but an ally.

Jihad
On the 11th of August 3071, following a rogue asteroid strike on Arkab and a perceived lack of assistance from the government of the Draconis Combine, the Azami leadership recalled all of the remaining Arkab Legions back to Algedi, against the orders of the Coordinator. A few months later on the 12th of November Coordinator Hohiro Kurita II issued an ultimatum to the Azami on Algedi, demanding that the Arkab Legions either "mobilize for the Dragon's defense or face the Dragon's wrath."

The form of this promised wrath became clear in late January 3072, when the Kirishima-class WarShip Siriwan arrived bearing an ultimatum from Gunji-no-Kanrei Kiyomori Minamoto. The Siriwan bombarded two of the Azami cities before being destroyed in orbit by nuclear weapons. The DCMS sent troops armed with tactical nuclear weapons to liberate the captives taken during the abortive assault by the Siriwan, and those troops managed to breach the defenses on Algedi on the 12th of April.

So the Azami had nukes in storage someplace? This would imply that nukes are not rare. I thought I read someplace that the Black Dragon influenced the Orbital Bombardment.

Edited by Skylarr, 10 March 2014 - 09:43 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Strum Wealh, on 10 March 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

IMO, Blood Rise was most likely thinking of the Smoke Jaguars, as it was their brutality during the Clan Invasion that served as part of the reason for why they were selected to be the target of the SLDF's attack.
(Though, I don't recall if CSJ actually used nukes when they bombarded Turtle Bay from orbit... )

Also, it should be noted that it was revealed in Betrayal of Ideals (by Blaine Lee Pardoe) that it was actually the Snow Ravens themselves who bombed their own genetic repository, with the bombing later blamed on the Wolverines as a matter of political expediency (as they wee already on-the-outs with Nicholas Kerensky) and as a matter of saving face for the Snow Ravens.
(Of course, it's not as though many (if any) in-universe Invasion-era Clanners would know that, or that they would believe it if told... )

Could you believe these same Ravens unleashed a dangerous virus in the DCMS?

[Duncan Aravain]

Turtle Bay was destroyed by orbital bombardment using capitol ship lasers and the resulting firestorm caused by the massive fires. Urban renewal, Clan style.

[Vanguard319]

PaintedWolf, on 10 March 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Could you believe these same Ravens unleashed a dangerous virus in the DCMS?

It wasn't the Ravens, it was a bio-weapon that was developed on Galedon V. if anything, the Ravens attacking that world and capturing most of it's refugees unknowingly prevented the virus from spreading throughout the Combine. In the end, they were forced to annihilate one of their own navel stars.

[Nomex 99]

Karl Streiger, on 08 March 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

there are 4 sizes:
Davy Crocket - 1 KT (can be fired by Arrow IV)
Alamo - 10KT - a special Anti-Ship Rocket fired by Aerospace fighter
Santa Anna - 100KT - fired by a Killer Whale - Missile
and the Peacemaker with 1000KT - and fired by a Kraken T-Missile

According to "Jihad Hot Spots 3070" and "Historical: Reunification War" the sizes are:

Davy Crocket - 0.5 KT
Alamo - 5 KT
Santa Ana - 50 KT
Peacemaker - 500 KT

but its still big enough to blast a mech away:

http://www.gamer.ru/...2_1600x1200.jpg

Cover from "Dawn Of The Jihad"

Edited by Nomex199, 12 March 2014 - 07:52 AM.