258 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Move laterally and the weapons you mention (PPCs and ACs) do not converge into one location because they travel at different speeds. This is a core game mechanic in MechWarrior to make good piloting a skill set like good aiming.

Problem solved. And you did it yourself.

Further in TT it's why pilots are rated and start out in Light mechs before moving on. Not saying this is needed in MWO, but there are what's called 'Green' level pilots who progress through ranks of Regular, Veteran, Elite, and Ace.

So it's not just about you shooting the Mech's guns, it's also about you piloting your Mech in a way that it survives the battle. Which you can do easily by keeping lateral velocity up while you attack.

It also affects mech balancing of Speed vs Armor, but even an Atlas can spread damage by moving laterally.

The rest comes from using good judgment, but I would agree that MWO's Mechs die too fast due to a lack of toughness and this makes the game harder to learn than it should be.

[Dirkdaring]

Jaguar Prime, on 08 March 2014 - 09:38 PM, said:

I suggest people record a match with ppc's and AC's fired in Alphas. Then play back the match at half speed and watch where the projectiles land when fired from 350m+ on a moving target.

I don't see a problem with pinpoint damage. I think a lot of the issues with pinpoint damage is some folks feel they die to quickly. Since this isn't a respawn game and you can't just jump back in, a lot are players don't like it. You make a mistake, you die. Instead of learning from the mistake and moving on to the next match, They would rather have the game changed to be more forgiving of them making mistakes.

Some matches I die first, Some I don't die at all. When I look back on the matches I die early, It's because "I" made a mistake. I either put myself in a bad position by being overly aggressive or not being aware of whats going on around me. It had nothing to do with front loaded pinpoint weapons.

In my opinion, This game would lose a lot of it's flavor if I couldn't hit the the panel I was aiming for. Killing pinpoint damage would close the gap between good pilots and bad pilots which i don't think is good. This isn't a single player game where you can turn the difficulty down. Whats next, nerfing the ability to focus a target by a more than 2 mechs?

You nailed it. I don't see a problem with pinpoint damage either. Game after game I see parts being blown off all over the place. I see it more that people not experienced enough at the game or with poor computers just can't aim as well as others. Sorry - but nerfing them doesn't fix your problems.

[HRR Insanity]

Abivard, on 08 March 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

Lower the damage they do per shot!

Does not work. Same as doubling armor (tried before). The only way to fix pin-poing damage is to prevent convergence OR allow some convergence with penalties to either damage, ROF, or accuracy.

http://mwomercs.com/...om-closed-beta/

I can't believe I can leave for 6 months, come back and the devs haven't sorted something out that's been screwing the game up since closed beta.

PGI. Please.

[Dirkdaring]

HRR Insanity, on 09 March 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

Does not work. Same as doubling armor (tried before). The only way to fix pin-poing damage is to prevent convergence OR allow some convergence with penalties to either damage, ROF, or accuracy.

http://mwomercs.com/...om-closed-beta/

I can't believe I can leave for 6 months, come back and the devs haven't sorted something out that's been screwing the game up since closed beta.

PGI. Please.

Because it isn't screwing the game up.

[HRR Insanity]

Dirkdaring, on 09 March 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Because it isn't screwing the game up.

So, out of the first page of the forums... ~10/20 topics are related to weapon/Mech balance. Of those 100% are related to the convergence issue.

Add to the fact that the gameplay is the exact same as since Closed Beta with the exact same weapon balance issues cropping up (including this thread) every month.

You keep telling yourself that everything is fine.

[Dirkdaring]

HRR Insanity, on 09 March 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

So, out of the first page of the forums... ~10/20 topics are related to weapon/Mech balance. Of those 100% are related to the convergence issue.

Add to the fact that the gameplay is the exact same as since Closed Beta with the exact same weapon balance issues cropping up (including this thread) every month.

You keep telling yourself that everything is fine.

Thoughts On Turrets? > Not related to pinpoint
Don't Like Being Called A "noob?" > Not related to pinpoint
Great Job On Balance > Not related to pinpoint
Suggestion For Changes To The Gauss Rifle. > Not related to pinpoint
Weekend Science: Turrets Impact On Assault Mode > Not related to pinpoint
Brawling Is Alive & Well - And Busy Taking Objectives > Not related to pinpoint
The Mwo Community In Regards To Balance > Not related to pinpoint
Dev's Response To Burst Fire > Not related to pinpoint
Turning Popwarrior / Hidewarrior Back Into Mechwarrior > Semi related to pinpoint
Matchmaker Is Working As Intended > Not related to pinpoint
Restarted - Why No Longer Knockdown? > Not related to pinpoint
Are There Any Devs That Are Clan Fans. > Not related to pinpoint
There, Are You Happy With Your Game Pgi? > Related to pinpoint
Boring - Need weapon balancing > Not related to pinpoint
Sorry, Poptarting Is Here To Stay. > Not related to pinpoint
Just An Idea > Not related to pinpoint
So About Dem Dar Turrents.... > Not related to pinpoint
Why Does The Flamer Produce Heat? > Not related to pinpoint
Ember Is Unbalanced > Not related to pinpoint
Hate Know The Team Is Gonna Get Crushed > Not related to pinpoint
Disconnects > Not related to pinpoint
Incentive To Play Lighter Mechs. > Not related to pinpoint
Still, The Gauss... > Not related to pinpoint
Get Into The Action Now! > Not related to pinpoint
Ballistics Bettering Beams > Related to pinpoint
Paul's Trouble With Lrms > Not related to pinpoint

A whole 2 threads. Keep crying the sky is falling.

[stjobe]

Pin-point direct damage IS a major problem, and yes it's time (way overdue, in fact) to change it.

But how?

• Adjusting weapon values (damage, heat, weight, range, etc) affects single weapons as much (or more) as grouped weapons, so isn't really a solution in and of itself.
  
• Convergence won't happen for HSR reasons (devs can't make the engine handle more than one convergence point at the same time as they have HSR - whether this is the devs fault or the engine's fault is academic).
  
• Cone of fire is a possibility, but always draws a lot of negativity from the "I want to hit where I aim" crowd - and to be frank, after playing extensively with the MG (which has a rather large CoF) I too want to hit where I aim.
  
• Reducing the number of grouped weapons that can be fired together is one possibility (often referred to as Target Computer Load), but doesn't really solve the problem - just like Ghost Heat doesn't solve the problem.
  
• Reducing the degree of customization is another oft-cited idea that fails to resolve the issue, just mitigates the symptoms. Sure, it'd be great if the MG ballistic slots of the K2 Cat couldn't be used for AC/20s or Gauss Rifles, but it doesn't really make PPDD any less potent, does it?

To my mind then, there's really only one solution that will do the trick, and that is burst-fire ACs and beam-duration PPCs - i.e. remove the DD part of PPDD since we can't remove the PP part.

I know it draws a lot of ire from the people that still think something that does 5 DPS but doesn't do it in 20-damage chunks every 4 seconds isn't an AC/20, but you know what? Those people are wrong.

They're wrong because they're fighting against the one solution that has even a slight chance of actually resolving the PPDD problems, they're wrong because their definition of an AC/20 harkens back to BattleTech boardgame mechanics and not BattleTech lore, they're wrong because the AC/20 in MWO is about 2.5 times more powerful and about 3 times more longer-ranged than the AC/20 they so fondly remember from TT, and last but certainly not least they're wrong because they don't seem to realize what an inherent advantage PPDD is.

No other weapons besides ACs and PPCs reap the benefits of both PP and DD; which is *exactly* why these weapons are dominating the game. Since we can't remove PP, we'll have to remove DD.

It's that simple.

Edited by stjobe, 09 March 2014 - 09:48 AM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Abivard, on 07 March 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

The situation:
AC's and PPC's, both can do pinpoint direct damage.
Mounting more than one enables convergence factor, this acts as a multiplier.
They have very long ranges.

No need to rehash all the views and counter views, you all should understand the basic background of this problem, and it is indeed a problem.

I have hesitated to even suggest this to now, but.......

Is it time to revisit the damage that is done per shot by these weapons?

I fear that the only real workable solution at this point is to lower their damage per shot.
The RoF increase PGI saw fit to give them along with the realities of Real time FPS has given them a synergy that is far beyond the spirit of the weapon.

A 20% ? reduction in damage per shot of all AC's, PPC's and ERPPC's is perhaps the best way to do this with out throwing something else way out of whack.

The Time To Kill (TKK) is increased ONLY for these weapons.

Once one variation from canon is allowed (Mechlabs making IS mechs essentially OMNI mechs Ghost-Heat, to PGI's version of ECM) The excuse that 'we can't do that, it violates canon' argument flies right out the window!

This also should only take a few minutes of actual 'coding' to adjust damage values.

So.... what are the reasons NOT to do it like this anyways? (BESIDES it is not canon)

Nope nope nope. I have ONE ppc ac5 poptart that does not see the light of day. I used mixed ac2's and ac5's in a lot of my builds that arent coupled with ppcs, but instead are dpm based. These nerfs will NOT stop poptarting. NOTHING is going to fix that issue, it has been a tactic used in this game im sure since mechwarrior 3 or 2.....and will never truly be nerfed from non-existence or die. The sooner we get this in out heads, the sooner we can stop nerfing every blasted thing. These nerfs will only screw over guys like us who use a lot of ballistic heavy mechs in a dpm, fire-support role...20% less damage per shot really kicks my battlemaster 1D right in the sack.....keep your filthy muggle paws off my autocannons please, Kthx....

[Dirkdaring]

People need to learn to play, and not try and make up for not being unable to aim, twist, jump and move.

Edited by Dirkdaring, 09 March 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

people need to learn to play, and not try and make up for not being unable to aim, twist, jump and move.

if thats what playing is, then obviously it needs to change. because poptarting should not be the norm.

[Mcgral18]

Dirkdaring, on 09 March 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

People need to learn to play, and not try and make up for not being unable to aim, twist, jump and move.

You see, I'm not sure you understand, but you can't spread FLD. You can make it hit another location, but that doesn't make it spread, it still hits for full damage, which makes it superior to any other weapon system that has a built in spreading mechanism. The only ballistic that has this is the AC2 since it fires so fast (The MG is a hitscan laser, not ballistic).

Being able to play doesn't change the weapon mechanics, it just means you know how to abuse them.

[Abivard]

xXBagheeraXx, on 09 March 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Nope nope nope. I have ONE ppc ac5 poptart that does not see the light of day. I used mixed ac2's and ac5's in a lot of my builds that arent coupled with ppcs, but instead are dpm based. These nerfs will NOT stop poptarting. NOTHING is going to fix that issue, it has been a tactic used in this game im sure since mechwarrior 3 or 2.....and will never truly be nerfed from non-existence or die. The sooner we get this in out heads, the sooner we can stop nerfing every blasted thing. These nerfs will only screw over guys like us who use a lot of ballistic heavy mechs in a dpm, fire-support role...20% less damage per shot really kicks my battlemaster 1D right in the sack.....keep your filthy muggle paws off my autocannons please, Kthx....

Perhaps you should read before commenting... POPTART?
I careless if you poptart or not, it is totally moot.

The problem is DD, which none of your suggestions will do a single thing against. Your rant doesn't even belong in this thread, it belongs in a poptart thread.

Those who exploit will rarely admit they are doing it or that it even exists. You are only fooling yourselves by pretending that there is no problem or exploitation of DD in MWO

Just because the the present ultimate exploit is AC5's paired with PPC's does not mean that only that combo needs adjustment. NO! It means that Direct Damage weapons are very OP in the present form MWO has.

There is no reason to not take DD weapons if you have an ability to do so. That is a sure sign of how powerful something is.

Changing armor affects all weapons, the reason PGI doubled armor values in the first place is because weapon's damages, RoF and range were drastically increased.
But of course no thought was really giving to the matter, Which is the main problem of PGI and most forum posters, they gave no thought for what they do. That is a simple fact easily deduced by anyone who can and will think about the matter at hand.

We have TWO choices, adjust Direct Damage weapons by the damage done per shot, or ditch the DD fire-mode.

This post is about how to KEEP DD in the game while balancing DD with the other weapon damage types!

If you wish to post about removing Direct Damage, whether by altering the weapons into dots or some other thing, post elsewhere.

Convergence is a different matter as well, the fact the the synergy of DD and Convergence is overwhelming has nothing to do with this topic, Convergence acts as a synergy with all weapons!

The problem is that DD weapons hit one armor location with their full damage, when group fired, all the group is aimed at one spot, depending on distance to target and projectile speeds all group fire will hit one 'armor location' or Hit-Box with full damage. No amount of torso twisting or gyrations will do a thing to stop that, unless the difference in projectile speeds have caused some of the projectiles to have lagged, at which point one or more projectiles MAY hit different Hitbox, BUT! It will still do full damage to that one hitbox.

One, or two or three or however many DD weapons you may mount, does not really change the fact that the DD weapons deliver 100% of damage rating to one hitbox ALWAYS! This point can not be stressed enough it seems.

In relation to other weapon damage types they were supposed to be roughly equal too in damage output, they put far more damage out then they should be.

The attempt to overcome logic by appealing to the emotions with the cry of 'I have just one, why are you punishing me' is not valid, you are not being punished and even the single DD weapon you have is still OP to any other comparable single weapon system of a different weapon damage type.

As for your DPM DD build, what happens if you meet a DoT based, or missile based DPM build that has the same DPM as you? If pilot skills are equal, the DD build will almost always win. even if that NoN DD build has twice the armor or even more!

I have no problem using AC's and hitting where I want, same with PPC's or any other weapon in this game. I know what they can do.

[Varent]

stjobe, on 09 March 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

Pin-point direct damage IS a major problem, and yes it's time (way overdue, in fact) to change it.

But how?

• Adjusting weapon values (damage, heat, weight, range, etc) affects single weapons as much (or more) as grouped weapons, so isn't really a solution in and of itself.
  
• Convergence won't happen for HSR reasons (devs can't make the engine handle more than one convergence point at the same time as they have HSR - whether this is the devs fault or the engine's fault is academic).
  
• Cone of fire is a possibility, but always draws a lot of negativity from the "I want to hit where I aim" crowd - and to be frank, after playing extensively with the MG (which has a rather large CoF) I too want to hit where I aim.
  
• Reducing the number of grouped weapons that can be fired together is one possibility (often referred to as Target Computer Load), but doesn't really solve the problem - just like Ghost Heat doesn't solve the problem.
  
• Reducing the degree of customization is another oft-cited idea that fails to resolve the issue, just mitigates the symptoms. Sure, it'd be great if the MG ballistic slots of the K2 Cat couldn't be used for AC/20s or Gauss Rifles, but it doesn't really make PPDD any less potent, does it?

To my mind then, there's really only one solution that will do the trick, and that is burst-fire ACs and beam-duration PPCs - i.e. remove the DD part of PPDD since we can't remove the PP part.


I know it draws a lot of ire from the people that still think something that does 5 DPS but doesn't do it in 20-damage chunks every 4 seconds isn't an AC/20, but you know what? Those people are wrong.

They're wrong because they're fighting against the one solution that has even a slight chance of actually resolving the PPDD problems, they're wrong because their definition of an AC/20 harkens back to BattleTech boardgame mechanics and not BattleTech lore, they're wrong because the AC/20 in MWO is about 2.5 times more powerful and about 3 times more longer-ranged than the AC/20 they so fondly remember from TT, and last but certainly not least they're wrong because they don't seem to realize what an inherent advantage PPDD is.

No other weapons besides ACs and PPCs reap the benefits of both PP and DD; which is *exactly* why these weapons are dominating the game. Since we can't remove PP, we'll have to remove DD.

It's that simple.

I think a lot of your ideas may upset a few crowds out there and perhaps kill a few playstyles and ideas. They may be abit too harsh. Smaller changes might be necessary or preferred.

[stjobe]

Varent, on 09 March 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

I think a lot of your ideas may upset a few crowds out there and perhaps kill a few playstyles and ideas. They may be abit too harsh. Smaller changes might be necessary or preferred.

As I've told you elsewhere, "I like to keep these weapons mechanically superior to all other weapons" is NOT a play style.

[CrashieJ]

The biggest Gripe I have is the fact that if you take away PP-damage, people whine about not having skill.

You want to know a secret that lies in TeamFortress 2?

the Heavy's minigun and and the Pistol (and the Beggar's Bazooka) are actually more accurate in burst fire (1-5 shots) than on full auto... not by much but it is noticeable with a keen eye... making SKILL and TIMING (those things people claim they have even though they don't) more of a gameplay balance than sweeping changes.

changing higher weapons to forced Burst, and lower weapons to a more manageable system would be best

[Procyon Alpha]

There is another time that needs to be looked at. The damage paper doll, should not be viewable by everyone. That is a reason to carry BAP. So in order to pinpoint dmg u have to carry BAP or a C3 to relay the info from someone who does. Let's look at TT it really does have some answers for us. 1.5 tones could hinder a lot of these builds, and not everyone is going to carry it. That could at least mitigate some of the damage and help spread some of the damage. Just a thought.

[Joseph Mallan]

Varent, on 07 March 2014 - 11:14 PM, said:

As I said, skim towards the end. We are working on a system that gives both.

But we have a system that gives us both already. Nearly all our Auto Cannons are AC20s. The AC5 is an AC15 and AC2 is an AC18... But you get the picture.

@StJobe, Fire many Machine Guns? Also Ever pay attention to the WartHog UTubes... They start shooting the ground a good bit before they hit the target.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 March 2014 - 04:57 AM.

[HRR Insanity]

Wow... the cluelessness.

Dirkdaring, on 09 March 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

Suggestion For Changes To The Gauss Rifle. > Not related to pinpoint

GR originally nerfed because it was seriously OP due to 2x or 3x GR variants.... due to pinpoint.

Quote

Brawling Is Alive & Well - And Busy Taking Objectives > Not related to pinpoint

Counter-sniping thread, due to the predominance of high-alpha, sniper builds.. due to pinpoint.

Quote

Dev's Response To Burst Fire > Not related to pinpoint

Burst fire proposed as a method to balance ACs to deal with single target burst damage in groups... due to pinpoint.

Quote

Turning Popwarrior / Hidewarrior Back Into Mechwarrior > Semi related to pinpoint

Sniper/popsniper builds dominate the meta due to the high-alpha capabilities provided by... you guessed it... pinpoint.

Quote

There, Are You Happy With Your Game Pgi? > Related to pinpoint

Another anti-sniper/popsniper thread... see above (ps: pinpoint).

Quote

Boring - Need weapon balancing > Not related to pinpoint

Maxalpha/sniping whine thread. Due to pinpoint. Again.

Quote

Sorry, Poptarting Is Here To Stay. > Not related to pinpoint

You can't pop-snipe effectively without alphastrikes that rely on pinpoint convergence. Fail.

Quote

Incentive To Play Lighter Mechs. > Not related to pinpoint

Max alphastrike/assault shift due to pinpoint accuracy makes lights unsurvivable, thus leading to proposals to make lights more appealing. Related to pinpoint.

Quote

Still, The Gauss... > Not related to pinpoint

See above.

Quote

Ballistics Bettering Beams > Related to pinpoint

A whole 2 threads. Keep crying the sky is falling.

10 threads.

Sky isn't falling. It's been stable for >2 years. They just haven't bothered to put it back up so the sun can shine again.

Have a nice day.

Edited by HRR Insanity, 10 March 2014 - 04:59 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Insanity... I liked your style!

[Fang01]

Dont adjust dmg values and you dont need to change a whole lot of stuff. If anything set a mechanic that changes when the ppc is fired that DOESNT link up with gauss's charge mechanic. This could be done simply by using the same firing mechanic they already have for missiles fired with doors closed. thus you would have:

AC: Fires instantly on trigger
Gauss: Charge and release to fire
PPC: Fires .5 after trigger.

Everything keeps its damage, flight speed, convergence etc but they all become that much harder to link up. Boating still gets discouraged by ghost heat and everyone lives happily ever after