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Dual Gauss Or Dual Ac20 Mech


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#61 Takashi Uchida

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:03 PM

I've run both AC40 and double gauss on Jagers.

My JM6-DD is a dedicated gauss platform and is my best mech numbers-wise (W/L, K/D, average damage). It's mastered and I never even bothered putting DHS on that sucka. In fact I'm often very tempted to play it exclusively because it's a moneymaker (makes me tempted to buy Firebrand, too). I also used double gauss to quickly level up my JM6-A so I could sell it ASAP without having to invest in DHS.

I regularly run with a lance that used to LOVE going 4 Gauss Jagers. It was hilarious, but we don't do that anymore due to upcoming tonnage limits.

My foray into the world of AC40 has been exactly the opposite. I cannot play it to save my damn life, and I don't make enough money from it. What double gauss and AC40 have in common is that missing is extremely costly. However, if you miss with gauss, you are likely a safe distance away from the battle and can take cover. Miss with an AC40, and you're likely in a brawl or trying to sneak up on someone. I'm just not good enough at keeping a Jager alive in the middle of a big fight, which is why I usually run UAC/AC5/2 type builds on the JM6-S so I can keep a respectable distance. I suppose I need to work on my stealth skills before I can play AC40 effectively.

With AC40, I'll probably get 1-2 easy kills, do about 200-300 dmg, then get killed (probably won't get many assists, either). With gauss, I can reach out and touch a lot of enemy mechs throughout the game and if we win, it's likely that I've participated in the destruction of every enemy (ie. 1-5 kills, 6+ assist), which means moar money.

I'm a little better at dual-AC10 builds, because there's more room for backup lasers, you have a little more flexibility and range. The playstyle is similar but much more forgiving. But rather than doing that, I prefer to build my Jagers around the UAC.

edit *dat grammar

Edited by Takashi Uchida, 17 March 2014 - 08:05 PM.


#62 ShinVector

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:12 PM

View PostTakashi Uchida, on 17 March 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

My foray into the world of AC40 has been exactly the opposite. I cannot play it to save my damn life, and I don't make enough money from it. What double gauss and AC40 have in common is that missing is extremely costly. However, if you miss with gauss, you are likely a safe distance away from the battle and can take cover. Miss with an AC40, and you're likely in a brawl or trying to sneak up on someone. I'm just not good enough at keeping a Jager alive in the middle of a big fight, which is why I usually run UAC/AC5/2 type builds on the JM6-S so I can keep a respectable distance. I suppose I need to work on my stealth skills before I can play AC40 effectively.


Don't be surprised that moment someone sees an AC40 Jager...
1. They start being careful.
2. They try to kill you ASAP by taking out one of the side torsos.

Gauss has the advantage of range.

Edited: Typos

Edited by ShinVector, 18 March 2014 - 12:16 AM.


#63 JigglyMoobs

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 11:29 PM

So, a couple of things are essential with the AC/40 Jager:

A. Stealth - don't let them see you coming. Use terrain to mask your movement or put yourself in the middle of other mechs on your team so they don't notice you.
B. Cover - you need to find a very good piece of cover to conceal yourself behind. Otherwise you are very vulnerable.
C. Strikes - not essential per se but greatly amplifies what you can do as a finishing move on the enemy. The guy whose armor you just stripped? Strike him. The guy whose cockpit you shot but didn't die? Strike him. The train of mechs that got into a traffic jam when you shot the first guy? Strike them. The strikes will sow confusion and amplify what you can do with your limited firing rate.
D. You can actually sustain 10 DPS for well over a minute if you fire your guns one at a time.


Edited by JigglyMoobs, 17 March 2014 - 11:34 PM.


#64 Laconicus

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 12:30 AM

I think it depends on your ping......Gauss are great but when you have a higher rate of ping from my neck of the woods 300 plus the long range Gauss benefit can be argued against. Some may disagree, others who live in long ping countries probably never had to consider it. Add occasional pack loss and you get my drift

#65 Rushin Roulette

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 12:45 AM

View PostDavidHurricane, on 09 March 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:


I hate it when people say that.

I've had "AC/20 ammo destroyed" according to Betty and lived for like 5 minutes afterwords. Idk 'bout y'all but CASE has saved my life many a time.


Case will make absolutely no difference with an XL engine.. no matter what. Case only stops the damage transfer from the side torso to the centre torso.

Ammo explosions do 100% damage to the section where they happen and then transfer half the remaining damage to the next section. The only thign Case does is to stop this internal damage transfer from teh side torso to the centre torso. What is unclear in MWO, is if this damage transfer stop is applicable to Gaus weapon explosions as well.

In the example of Ammo explosions lets take the hypothetical case where you receive 30 internal damage in your side torso from the remaining ammunition exploding to a crit and the mech section only has 20 HP left.
  • XL Engine: 20 Damage will be applied to the side torso which will cause it to explode (at this point if you have and XL engine with or without case your mech will be destroyed due to the loss of that side torso).
  • STD Engine without Case: 20 Damage will be applied to the side torso which will cause it to explode. The remaining 10 damage will be halved and transfer to teh centre torso (causing 5 damage there).
  • STD enginde with Case: 20 Damage will be applied to the side torso which will cause it to explode. The Case will stop any damage transfer to the centre torso causing the remaining 10 damage to be not applicable adn will be ignored by the system.


#66 ShinVector

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 01:24 AM

View PostLaconicus, on 18 March 2014 - 12:30 AM, said:

I think it depends on your ping......Gauss are great but when you have a higher rate of ping from my neck of the woods 300 plus the long range Gauss benefit can be argued against. Some may disagree, others who live in long ping countries probably never had to consider it. Add occasional pack loss and you get my drift


Still not so bad at range from 250ms land...
Close range is a pain though.

#67 MisterPlanetarian

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:26 AM

Might see a Mauler in April or May so the Jager might get some competition soon, which is all good to me.

#68 990Dreams

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 05:30 AM

View PostRushin Roulette, on 18 March 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:


Case will make absolutely no difference with an XL engine.. no matter what. Case only stops the damage transfer from the side torso to the centre torso.

Ammo explosions do 100% damage to the section where they happen and then transfer half the remaining damage to the next section. The only thign Case does is to stop this internal damage transfer from teh side torso to the centre torso. What is unclear in MWO, is if this damage transfer stop is applicable to Gaus weapon explosions as well.

In the example of Ammo explosions lets take the hypothetical case where you receive 30 internal damage in your side torso from the remaining ammunition exploding to a crit and the mech section only has 20 HP left.
  • XL Engine: 20 Damage will be applied to the side torso which will cause it to explode (at this point if you have and XL engine with or without case your mech will be destroyed due to the loss of that side torso).
  • STD Engine without Case: 20 Damage will be applied to the side torso which will cause it to explode. The remaining 10 damage will be halved and transfer to teh centre torso (causing 5 damage there).
  • STD enginde with Case: 20 Damage will be applied to the side torso which will cause it to explode. The Case will stop any damage transfer to the centre torso causing the remaining 10 damage to be not applicable adn will be ignored by the system.


Hello Rushin.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I have never taken one point of ammo explosion damage with case on my Jager(s).

I have no memory whatsoever of ammo damage. Ever ever ever. Did I mention ever? I think I did. I die much quicker without case than with it is another way of saying it.

#69 Rushin Roulette

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 06:41 AM

View PostDavidHurricane, on 18 March 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:


Hello Rushin.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I have never taken one point of ammo explosion damage with case on my Jager(s).

I have no memory whatsoever of ammo damage. Ever ever ever. Did I mention ever? I think I did. I die much quicker without case than with it is another way of saying it.

Pix or it never happened. You "claim" you never got any damage with Case and you have a the "feeling" that you die much quicker without case.... however the game mechanics prove otherwise. Case does not... ever... stop any ammunition from exploding... ever. The only thing it does, is to stop damage transfer to the centre torso, not more, not less.

What you are reporting is pure speculation and a phsycological effect for you personally. If you want real proof, then you could set up a 12 v 12 situation where you enter the match with 0 armour and let an opponent hit your side torso with an MG and count the amount of bullets it takes to kill you. Repeat this 10 times with and 10 times without Case and count the number of average bullets per kill and how many times you died from ammunition explosion in each scenario.

Also note, that a study with only 2*10 cases is not really proof, but it is a good way to get a general trend for something.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CASE

Quote

While this makes it invaluable for preventing excessive internal damage, CASE does not actually stop the explosion, it merely contains and redirects the explosive force, so after an explosion units likely will be crippled or nonfunctional, though not destroyed outright.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 18 March 2014 - 06:41 AM.


#70 Mad Ox

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 07:29 AM

Why build 1 when 2 can be much better.

For less tonnage and way more Dakka (0.52 recycle time) at 2 AC/2 (12 ton) per 1 AC/20 (14 ton) or Gauss (15 ton). The AC/2 will do more damage over time then AC/20 or Gauss. And AC/2 has better range then both, giving you 4 total long range lead spewing monsters. Sure need a good amount of ammo but well did I mention they weight less anyway?

oh and did I mention MORE DAKKA!!!

#71 Bront

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 08:41 AM

View PostTACITVS, on 08 March 2014 - 02:44 AM, said:

Dualgauss and DualAC builds are for n00bs who need cheap and easy kills but lack the skill to play fair.
Having said that: It is damn easy to rack up 900+ damage with dualgauss and getting lots of kills as well. But is that really fun? This is actually what kills the game: high pinpoint damage weapons/loadouts that can kill or cripple most mechs in a single alpha ....


An unskilled player will struggle just as much using one of those build as they would with another build. Sure, they're simpler to use, but they're also limited in what they can do.

Personally, I prefer Gauss to AC40 builds. Better heat, better range. Takes some time to get used to though.

#72 Blue Footed Booby

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 08:45 AM

View PostMad Ox, on 18 March 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

Why build 1 when 2 can be much better.

...


Neat thing about boom and gauss jager is that they're viable for any of the variants (this makes mastering pretty easy if you enjoy either of those builds :V). I have all three normal variants and the Firebrand, and all four mechs are set up differently. The Firebrand is a boomjager (that's my main build so I like the C-bill bonus), the S is gauss, the D waffles between 4 AC2 and my 6xMG/2xPPC gimmick, and the A is a really stupid missile build that won't be described in detail.

In my experience, 4 AC2 is the most consistent good performer. It's fairly forgiving of mistakes thanks to the fast fire rate, and is fairly versatile thanks to the range.

At the same time, my best rounds have been in the boomjager. It's kind of a high risk/high reward build, in that if you work in concert with teammates and/or get the drop on somebody you can punch far above your weight, but at the same time missing a single shot or pushing your luck a little too far can leave you with a comical 0 kill, 0 assist, 20 damage match.

The 6mg/2ppc build...can get kills. It's not what you'd call "good", especially in the era of ghost heat, but it can be fun.

All in all, the jager's high weapon mount points, capacity for symmetrical loadouts, and dashing, toaster-like figure have spoiled me for other mechs. Maybe this is a sign of mental defect.

Edit: the hunchback is still a better flamerboat than the Firebrand.

Edited by Blue Footed Booby, 18 March 2014 - 08:47 AM.


#73 Sug

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:16 AM

View PostDavidHurricane, on 18 March 2014 - 05:30 AM, said:

I have never taken one point of ammo explosion damage with case on my Jager(s).


View PostRushin Roulette, on 18 March 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

Pix or it never happened.


You can have your "____ ammo destroyed" and not suffer an ammo explosion. There's only a 10% chance for ammo to blow when it's destroyed.

If your side torso slots are full there's only like a 0.5% chance of a crit causing an ammo explosion so it's entirely possible that you've just never suffered one.

Also there is now some confusion on how CASE works and what it actually does.

http://mwomercs.com/...transfer-to-ct/





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