105 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

KuroNyra, on 21 March 2014 - 02:47 AM, said:

Put a StormCrow against a Daishi.





Other question, this time between the Mad Dog and the Timber Wolf. I've heard that these mechs shared same component.
Both of them had for exemple the same leg's. True?

Close to 600m from Atlas, put into reverse.

Shoot Atlas with ER LL ( 8 + 1 walk + 2 5 hexes - gunnery = 11 - gunnery).

Watch Atlas try and hit with LRM's at max range (8 + 2 run + 2 6 hexes - gunnery = 12 - gunnery)

Watch ER LL destroy Atlas

Watch Atlas collapse in smouldering heap.

SnagaDance, on 21 March 2014 - 04:36 AM, said:

The Summoner has enough ammo to fight? Hardly!

The Prime variant carries 2 tons for the Lrm15 true but it's LB10x only has 1 ton (which in TT means you can't switch between solid and cluster shot), meaning that in 10 shots you've got a 10 ton paperweight. How often do you take out a mech with a single ERPPC and a supplemental Lrm15 together with a 10-shot LB10x into battle and do well?

The A variant suffers from the same problem. Nice Gauss rifle but only 1 ton of ammo. Luckily the SRM6 (which is supposed to exploit the breaches made by the Gauss gets 2 tons? Sp you've got the above story but now with a Large Pulse and a SRM-6

The B variant is the only one I'd call properly cared for in terms of ammo. It's Lrm20's got 2 tons each, and the 2 SRM-4's get 1 ton each. And then there's a Narc. Unfortunately it has absolutely zero back-up weapons once the ammo runs out.

The C variant is the Prime and A story all over again but now starring an Ultra AC/20 (so even though it has 2 tons you can compare it to a regular AC/20 with just a single ton of ammo), a Streak SRM6 with 2 tons of ammo and an ERLL plus ERSL.

The D variant is a solid energy weapons platform.

In Zellbriggen enforced encounters the Summoner should be able to take out one similar opponent, but it will struggle taking out 2 due to ammo concerns. With no Zellbriggen and a prolongued engagement I see every design except the D being dead in the water.

Also, it's nice being Heat Neutral but really, if your going below Heat Neutral so fast because of ammo shortages is it still a good thing? And how many Heat Neutral mechs do you play in MWO? Being able to ride the heat curve in order to do more damage at the right moment has always been important, both in TT and MWO.

Finally, the lore states it's a good meter taller than most other mechs. If PGI follows this (why do certain Medium mech designs spring to mind?) you've got a mech with a huge profile but not enough armour.

I really like the look of the Summoner but I do not see it being really great in MWO and in TT I really only rated the D a threat, as an upgunned Grasshopper if you will.

The vast majority of book (canon?) mechs carry only one ton of ammo for it's weapons so your calculations are exactly the same for the opposition, therefore for all the maths you have shown its no evidence of the Summoner being inferior. It's opposition suffers from exactly the same issues.

If you are comparing a summoner to an optimal min max built mech its hardly a fair assessment.

We know in canon the summoner was the preferred ride of Martha Pryde and she fought trials all the time in it. She didn't have a problem in her ToP nailing more than one opponent.

The summoner is more heat efficient than many other mechs. What that means is that its peak heat on many variants doesn't cripple its actions / weapon choice's with its next salvo's. It's far easier to manage its rate of fire.

I'm away from my library atm but a Timberwolf Primes alpha is circa 50 heat, or + 20 over capacity, that's crippling to the next couple of rounds.

The Summoner Prime on the other hand barely gets over its heat capacity meaning a much higher RoF overall.

So which is the better mech, the one that uses all its ammo and is still fighting, or the one with ammo bins at 75% but cannot fire because of heat.

Again, a summoners armour will preclude it standing in a open field and saying shoot me, but in denser terrain its jump jets and ability to run 'lean' makes it a fearsome opponent. And far superior to a Timberwolf.

[KuroNyra]

Craig Steele, on 21 March 2014 - 05:50 PM, said:

Close to 600m from Atlas, put into reverse.

Shoot Atlas with ER LL ( 8 + 1 walk + 2 5 hexes - gunnery = 11 - gunnery).

Watch Atlas try and hit with LRM's at max range (8 + 2 run + 2 6 hexes - gunnery = 12 - gunnery)

Watch ER LL destroy Atlas

Watch Atlas collapse in smouldering heap.



The vast majority of book (canon?) mechs carry only one ton of ammo for it's weapons so your calculations are exactly the same for the opposition, therefore for all the maths you have shown its no evidence of the Summoner being inferior. It's opposition suffers from exactly the same issues.

If you are comparing a summoner to an optimal min max built mech its hardly a fair assessment.

We know in canon the summoner was the preferred ride of Martha Pryde and she fought trials all the time in it. She didn't have a problem in her ToP nailing more than one opponent.

The summoner is more heat efficient than many other mechs. What that means is that its peak heat on many variants doesn't cripple its actions / weapon choice's with its next salvo's. It's far easier to manage its rate of fire.

I'm away from my library atm but a Timberwolf Primes alpha is circa 50 heat, or + 20 over capacity, that's crippling to the next couple of rounds.

The Summoner Prime on the other hand barely gets over its heat capacity meaning a much higher RoF overall.

So which is the better mech, the one that uses all its ammo and is still fighting, or the one with ammo bins at 75% but cannot fire because of heat.

Again, a summoners armour will preclude it standing in a open field and saying shoot me, but in denser terrain its jump jets and ability to run 'lean' makes it a fearsome opponent. And far superior to a Timberwolf.

I think there will be a difference with the pilot's.
Some mechwarrior suck at Hit'n'Run fight. And other's are extremely good with that.

You can't really say the the Thor will be superior to the Timberwolf, they don't have the same kind of "gameplay".
The TimberWolf is able to fight at every range, using LRM and his laser.
But against a brawler like the Thor at short rang, yeah. He will have disadvantage in a hit'n'run battle.

But if he caught the Thor in a pure "brawl" fight, where he can use both laser AND LRM.
The Thor will have trouble, Jump Jet or not.

[Craig Steele]

KuroNyra, on 22 March 2014 - 04:24 AM, said:

I think there will be a difference with the pilot's.
Some mechwarrior suck at Hit'n'Run fight. And other's are extremely good with that.

You can't really say the the Thor will be superior to the Timberwolf, they don't have the same kind of "gameplay".
The TimberWolf is able to fight at every range, using LRM and his laser.
But against a brawler like the Thor at short rang, yeah. He will have disadvantage in a hit'n'run battle.

But if he caught the Thor in a pure "brawl" fight, where he can use both laser AND LRM.
The Thor will have trouble, Jump Jet or not.

Well, I don't think I did say the Summoner was better than a Timberwolf, I think I said its not going to be terrible and in a close terrain brawl, it will have an advantage over many mech's, including the Timberwolf.

a) It can use all its weapons where as Timberwolf can use (say) 75% of it's weapons before having serious heat issues.
b ) It can jump and effect better turning / facing than the ground restricted Timberwolf

The Timberwolf does have an advantage in armour, but it is not as efficient (well in a TT sense).

So if it translates as per TT, then in open terrain the Summoner should suffer accordingly, and in close terrain the Timberwolf will struggle more so.

It's all kind of hyperthetical until the mechs are released, but in a TT sense the Summoner handled half OK could easily wipe a Timberwolf. The ability to jump into partial cover and choose your facing was far superior to the Timberwolf's walk or run movement.