79 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Bhael Fire, on 11 March 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Honestly, they aren't too bad, all of them just need a shorter beam duration so that they deliver their damage faster, a slight heat reduction and a reduced cool down.

Large Pulse Laser
Heat: 7.5 (from 8)
Duration: 0.5 seconds (from 0.6)
Cooldown: 3 seconds (from 3.25)

Medium Pulse Laser
Heat: 4.5 (from 5)
Duration: 0.5 (from 0.6)
Cooldown: 2.5 seconds (from 3)

Small Pulse Laser
Heat: 2.25 (from 2.4)
Duration: 0.3 (from 0.5)
Cooldown: 2 seconds (from 2.25)

I think something like that would make them more tempting to use over their standard counterparts.

I think what a lot of us are wanting is just more of a unique weapon that helps justify the trade offs for taking a pulse as opposed to std lasers. As it stands really they're not used as often simply because there's no real advantage to them. Every other weapon in the game has a unique set of pros and cons to it that set it apart from other weapons.

The pulse, as it stands, is just a laser with a very slightly shorter beam duration, more heat, and more weight. There's no real niche for it outside of a player just personally "liking" it which isn't going to make it a commonly deployed weapon. Most of the ideas I've seen in this thread thus far are suggesting to make it more of a bridge between ballistics and beam so you kind of get the best of both worlds but at the cost of that heat and tonnage.

It would just make it more "justified" in the eyes of more players to take a pulse if the mechanics were changed to match more closely at least in some form what many are suggesting here.

[Bhael Fire]

Sandpit, on 11 March 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

The pulse, as it stands, is just a laser with a very slightly shorter beam duration, more heat, and more weight. There's no real niche for it outside of a player just personally "liking" it which isn't going to make it a commonly deployed weapon.

That's the advantage of a pulse laser, though. It delivers all of its damage faster than a standard laser which makes it better overall for brawling than standard lasers. They have shorter range, but they are supposed to be good weapons for "knife-fighting."

I think if they accentuate that characteristic more, it will help it stand out and would make it more useful.

Also, once SRMs get their mojo back, we will see a lot more in-fighting and brawling, and a little less hill humping and popping.

[Sandpit]

Bhael Fire, on 11 March 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

That's the advantage of a pulse laser, though. It delivers all of its damage faster than a standard laser which makes it better overall for brawling than standard lasers. They have shorter range, but they are supposed to be good weapons for "knife-fighting."

I think if they accentuate that characteristic more, it will help it stand out and would make it more useful.

Also, once SRMs get their mojo back, we will see a lot more in-fighting and brawling, and a little less hill humping and popping.

I don't think anyone is saying it's no an advantage, most are saying it's not enough of or a unique enough advantage to warrant the heat and tonnage trade-offs which is why you don't see it more commonly used. Some of the suggestions I've seen in this thread would do that

[CaptainDeez]

I swear by large pulse lasers and often get 600+ damage matches. The advantages seem small on the surface until you understand the key differences.

STD lasers fire in streams for 1 second. Damage is distributed over time. Any movement means your beam leaves the point it's attacking and spreads the damage across multiple sections. You might miss a crit under some circumstances becaues of beam sweeping.

Pulse lasers fire in 4 burst of damage. Where the cursor is pointed is where x damage occurs per pulse. When beam sweep occurs you makes 4 2.5 damage attacks instead of scrawling 1-2 damage across mutiple sections. The burst also seem to cause crits more often when you hit the same area.

[Kaeb Odellas]

CaptainDeez, on 11 March 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

Pulse lasers fire in 4 burst of damage. Where the cursor is pointed is where x damage occurs per pulse. When beam sweep occurs you makes 4 2.5 damage attacks instead of scrawling 1-2 damage across mutiple sections. The burst also seem to cause crits more often when you hit the same area.

Sorry, but this is not true at all. The 5 pulses you see on the graphical effect and hear in the sound effect (WUBWUBWUBWUBWUB) do not correspond to when the weapon deals damage. They deal damage the same way standard lasers do.

If you want to see proof, go to Testing Grounds with a medium pulse laser. Stand in front of a Centurion, and sweep the laser along the front of it at the level of its cockpit, using your legs to sweep the laser. If you do it right, you'll damage its head, both arms, and all three torso sections. That's 6 total components taking damage, which means the weapon had to do more than 5 pulses.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

CaptainDeez, on 11 March 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

I swear by large pulse lasers and often get 600+ damage matches. The advantages seem small on the surface until you understand the key differences.

STD lasers fire in streams for 1 second. Damage is distributed over time. Any movement means your beam leaves the point it's attacking and spreads the damage across multiple sections. You might miss a crit under some circumstances becaues of beam sweeping.

Pulse lasers fire in 4 burst of damage. Where the cursor is pointed is where x damage occurs per pulse. When beam sweep occurs you makes 4 2.5 damage attacks instead of scrawling 1-2 damage across mutiple sections. The burst also seem to cause crits more often when you hit the same area.

100% false. Pulse Laser's weapon mechanic is EXACTLY identical to standard beam lasers in that fire an identical beam and damage to Standard Beam Lasers.

The only difference is their total burn time and animation/sound. They visual and auditory effects are entirely misleading and do not represent the weapon at all. Similar to how Machine Guns are actually hit scan with zero actual travel time.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Pulse would certainly be better if they did damage in 5 pulses. It would be easier on the simulation, too, with fewer trace calls to make per shot.

[Sandpit]

Kaeb Odellas, on 12 March 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

Pulse would certainly be better if they did damage in 5 pulses. It would be easier on the simulation, too, with fewer trace calls to make per shot.

This is actually similar to what most here are suggesting. I'd rather smaller "pulses" with no designated number of pulses, continuous fire while holding down the trigger for smaller increments but yes, each "pulse" would be like an individual bullet

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 09 March 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Ok so I've always had a nagging problem with MWO's pulse lasers. Before I dive into this keep in mind I know this isn't TT and things are different in an FPS game so things have to work a little differently for various reasons.

They way pulse works now is by simply changing the beam characteristic slightly. Instead of a steady constant beam, it's more of an MG style weapon with multiple bursts per shot. That's ok I guess but it really doesn't offer anything unique over regular lasers when it comes to trade-offs in choosing between the two weapon systems.

I've always felt they would be more useful and viable if the core mechanic worked differently. Right now the differences between pulse and standard are minimal at best for reduced range, extra heat, more weight.
R= Recycle Time
D= Damage
DPS= D per second
H=Heat
HPS= H per second
S= Slots
T= Tonnage
OR= Optimum Range (Hexes for TT stats)
MR= Max Range
L= Duration (Length of beam duration)
Cost = Cbills cost
N= N/A (Not Applicable)


MWO stats
R D DPS H HPS S T OR MR L Cost
Medium laser: 3 5 1.25 4 1 1 1 270 540 1 80,000
Medium Pulse: 3 6 1.67 5 1.39 1 2 200 400 .6 120,000


TT stats
R D DPS H HPS S T OR MR L Cost
Medium Laser: N 5 N 3 N 1 1 4-6 7-9 N 40,000
Medium Pulse: N 6 N 4 N 1 2 2 4 N 60,000


Ok now as I stated earlier direct translations from TT won't work for everything so please understand that I'm not saying "Well TT did it this way so we should have an exact replication of that here in MWO" I'm just wanting to show how the trade-offs in TT compared to MWO really make the pulse lasers here feel a little less "worth it" most times. They're not a very unique weapon.

Instead of the current mechanic I have always felt that reducing the beam duration and reducing recycle time slightly would make a huge difference in pulse viability. Instead of an MG type mechanic with multiple bursts I think they would be much more viable if they still had a single beam just a shorter duration. Include a slightly faster recycle time and essentially what you have is a slower energy version of the UAC.

The new recycle time would still make heat a major factor when using them but also give them an "edgier" feel in that when you're down an arm, your CT is almost cored, and that Atlas is bearing down on you, you can risk the heat to get more shots fired off and either take him down first or at least do enough damage to help out your team.

Now you have a pulse laser that fires faster, is heavier, has reduced range, and puts out a much higher potential DPS for more heat as trade-offs. I would start off by having the beam duration at about half that of a standard laser with a recycle time of 2.0. That means with three of them you could potentially have a true MG like effect for short periods of time before over heating. It would put them into a more unique category and help distinguish them as a completely different weapon system.

They would almost be like a "bridge" between ballistics and beams. You get a short beam duration which still spreads damage but has more of a pinpoint feel to it while having the benefits of instant hit of beams.

Weapon modules could be introduced that increased range for heat, heat for damage, all kinds of stuff. What do you guys think?

Honestly....

The changes that I feel would make the Pulse Laser interesting and viable are things im loathe to do because I think that it would upset other members of the community that like it a certain way with certain values.

current medium pulse laser -
Name Damage Heat Cooldown Range Max Range Slots Tons Speed Duration DPS HPS EHS Impulse Health Costs

MED PULSE LASER 6.00 5.00 3.00 200 400 1 2.0 - 0.60 1.67 1.39 14 - 10.00 120,000

Now my own thoughts would be drastically lowering the Heat, Cooldown and Damage, but tweaking with them so it overall fires differently. Also lowering the duration so the beam itself doesnt hold on as long could be useful. Making it look something like this...

MED PULSE LASER 3.25 2.50 1.50 200 400 1 2.0 - 0.50 1.67 1.39 14 - 10.00 120,000

This makes the weapon higher DPS that rewards ability to land shots and also makes it more heat efficient at times when necesary. Also lowering the beam duration make it a more capable brawling weapon.

However this plays with the damage numbers alot on the FLD area... wich can be a bad thing and also messes with the TT numbers wich alot of people dont like.

*shrug*

there is no easy answer.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Turning pulse lasers into continuous-fire laser machine guns isn't going to make them better brawlers, as you're going to have to sacrifice the ability to torso twist to do full damage.

They might be useful for light mechs, but I don't think they'd work for heavier brawlers that need to twist to survive.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

The simplest change would just be to lower the beam duration further and drop the heat. SPL and MPL should be viable choices for lights and mediums for skirmishing or brawling.
LPL should be the go to laser for brawling heavies and assaults.
I'm happy to accept the shorter range and greater weight if I get a decent benefit. We'll know when the figures are right when people start QQing that their OP.

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 12 March 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

Turning pulse lasers into continuous-fire laser machine guns isn't going to make them better brawlers, as you're going to have to sacrifice the ability to torso twist to do full damage.

They might be useful for light mechs, but I don't think they'd work for heavier brawlers that need to twist to survive.

The duration is lowered as well significantly. (15%). And it makes them dual purpose. Flanker/Brawler.

[Sandpit]

Kaeb Odellas, on 12 March 2014 - 12:46 PM, said:

Turning pulse lasers into continuous-fire laser machine guns isn't going to make them better brawlers.

Nobody anywhere suggested they be made in "brawling" weapons that I've seen in this thread

[Varent]

Sandpit, on 12 March 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

Nobody anywhere suggested they be made in "brawling" weapons that I've seen in this thread

I did, brawling flanking *shrug* Thats just my own opinion there since that would make me use them.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Sandpit, on 12 March 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

Nobody anywhere suggested they be made in "brawling" weapons that I've seen in this thread

Then what would be their purpose? Their short range makes them useless for snipers and long-range fire support. Making them continuous-fire weapons makes them useless for brawlers, since they prevent twisting. They would only then be useful for MG boats, since MGs force them to maintain facing anyway. AC2s also require constant facing, but they're too hot to be used at the same time as energy weapons.

[Sandpit]

Varent, on 12 March 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

I did, brawling flanking *shrug* Thats just my own opinion there since that would make me use them.

Sorry, missed that one.

I don't think lasers are meant for brawling, pulse or otherwise but that's beside the point.

[Bhael Fire]

Sandpit, on 12 March 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

Nobody anywhere suggested they be made in "brawling" weapons that I've seen in this thread

I have; because that's what they are. Their role is supposed to be for "knife-fighting" — i.e., getting in close and doing their damage quickly so you can get out quickly.


That said, a continuous fire "machine gun" laser would be kinda cool...but I'd rather have the deadly precision of a pulse laser that delivers all of its damage to one spot quickly.

[Bront]

Pulse laser fix.

Same Heat/damage as regular lasers. Shorter beam duration. faster recharge time. Shorter range.

So, they become a burst damage weapon (they sorta are now), but you end up generating more heat simply because they can fire more often.

SL/SPL need a range buff to 120/100 as well.

[Varent]

Bhael Fire, on 12 March 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

I have; because that's what they are. Their role is supposed to be for "knife-fighting" — i.e., getting in close and doing their damage quickly so you can get out quickly.


That said, a continuous fire "machine gun" laser would be kinda cool...but I'd rather have the deadly precision of a pulse laser that delivers all of its damage to one spot quickly.

Thats kinda what I always envisioned them as myself. Machine Gun style Lasers, High DPS, close range.

[cSand]

I'm using LPL and MPL regularly for a loong time now. Good times!

Not so sure they need much drastic changes...