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Uacs Done Different (No, Seriously)


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#1 Volthorne

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:24 PM

So, we've got single-shot regular ACs, a shotgun-like LBX, and... a two-shot AC? How in the hell is taht balanced? Jam rate? Pffft, stack three of them and ignore the jamming (insert appropriate Bob Marley joke here). Frankly, the double-firing UACs aren't going to work once /10s and /20s roll around, especially the /20s. So we're going to fix that.

I've seen a lot of posts in the forums about UACs either being too OP (not enough RNG%) or UP (too much RNG%). There have also been suggestions for making it jam based on how many shots you've taken, doubling the RoF and firing increasing the chance (still RNG but player controlled - still not a huge fan). But no suggestions have ever made to changing the base mechanics of HOW it's fired. EDIT: I should mention I was finally.... inspired to write this post on the recent thread talking about ways to minimize FLD (front-loaded damage) as to decrease dominance of ACs.

What if we made UAC/5s (and all UACs in general but I'm working with what we have right now) deal half the damage of their their regular-counterparts per shot - hold on, put the pitchforks away - but work on a two-stage trigger? That is to say, clicking DOWN fires one shell, and RELEASING the click fires the second. So a tap would fire "onetwo", whereas clicking and holding for a second and then releasing would fire "one...two". So that takes care of the firing, but what about the jamming? Simple. On the first pair of shots, 0%. On the second pair of shots, 25% (when fired within 1s of previous pair). On the third, 50% (within 1s of previous pair), and so on. In an absolute best-case scenario, your damage would be hard-capped to 20 damage over 4 seconds, at the maximum fire-rate of 2 shots per second (1s recycle after the second shot is fired). Jamming would force a 2s recycle to unjam the UAC.

So, to recap my proposal is:

UAC/5
2.5 damage per shot
Maximum RoF of 2/s with a two-stage trigger and 1s recycle
Increasing chance to jam by 25% for every consecutive pair of shots fired at maximum RoF
Forced 2s "unjam" recycle when jam procs

Edited by Volthorne, 10 March 2014 - 01:26 PM.


#2 Willard Phule

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:35 PM

Personally, I don't have a problem with how they work right now, except for the jamming.

Now, if they came out with a 2 stage UAC5 "improved mechanics" module that lowers the chance of a jam, I'd be all over that.

#3 Roughneck45

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:40 PM

Still using random mechanics as a solution though.

I think the best way to use them would be to give them a spin up time. The first shot or two would have a slower recycle than a standard AC5, but by the time you got to the third or fourth shot you would have a higher rate of fire than the standard, you would just have to hold the trigger down. Then either give it its own overheat bar that jams when reaching a threshold or have it generate more heat than normal after the first few shots.

Removes the random, forces you to remain exposed to get full effect and will either jam or make you over heat with extended use.

#4 stjobe

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:41 PM

I still remember the UAC unjamming mini-game we had when it first was introduced...

(for those that wasn't here, you had to manually add the UAC to every weapon group in sequence, then remove it from all the weapon groups in sequence, then add it again to the one you wanted it in - yes, that was the actual mechanic they thought up to unjam a jammed UAC! It got changed in a hurry when Bryan almost threw his keyboard across the office when his UAC jammed in a match...)

That little trip down memory lane done, I fail to see what this proposal does that's worth the programming time? Oh, and firing 2x20 damage from a UAC/20 in a second won't be fun. Or it will, depending on which side of the gun you are.

#5 Charons Little Helper

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:47 PM

UAC is in a good place right now.

It used to be freakish overpowered vs AC5.

You can ignore jam all you want. It still happens & lowers overall DPS.

For a few quick shots UAC is supieror - for more contant firing AC5 is.

Done.

If it ain't broke - don't fix it. (they still have several things that really need to be fixed - don't distract them)

#6 Trauglodyte

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:50 PM

View PostRoughneck45, on 10 March 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

Still using random mechanics as a solution though.

I think the best way to use them would be to give them a spin up time. The first shot or two would have a slower recycle than a standard AC5, but by the time you got to the third or fourth shot you would have a higher rate of fire than the standard, you would just have to hold the trigger down. Then either give it its own overheat bar that jams when reaching a threshold or have it generate more heat than normal after the first few shots.

Removes the random, forces you to remain exposed to get full effect and will either jam or make you over heat with extended use.


Thing is, the random mechanics are all that we have to really keep them from blowing everything up. The problem, though, is that the single UAC5 is a horrible weapon. It is only really good the more of them you have (sound familiar?). So, that stock Shadowhawk 5M gets penalized from having only one but the kitted out Ilya with 3 of them is just fine. And, if that isn't the worst part, the damned thing jams even if you single fire them like a normal AC5.

In actuality, what should happen is:
  • Reduce the jam rate to 5% base
  • Increase the jam rate by 5% when multiple UACs are present (10% for 2, 15% for three, etc)
  • Each additional shot fired adds 1% to the jam rate until the jam occurs; added jam chance is eliminated by 1% every 1.5s (ie, single fire it like a normal AC5 and it won't jam)
It isn't pretty but it is better than what we have now. Twink it the way it needs to be but something needs to be done.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 10 March 2014 - 01:54 PM.


#7 Willard Phule

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:53 PM

You know...not to open a total can of worms here, but even in BT cannon there were inconsistencies with regard to ACs. I know this doesn't specifically address what the OP was talking about but....

In the novels, especially the earlier ones, they couldn't agree whether an AC (such as the AC20) fired one big bullet or several smaller ones. You see it all the time.

As far as the UAC5 is concerned...going back to TableTop here...if an AC5 can do 5 points of damage in a 10 second period, then mathematically, the UAC5 can do 5 points in 5 seconds. As long as the UAC5 has a fire rate that is half of an AC5, I think it's probably good.

View PostTrauglodyte, on 10 March 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:


Thing is, the random mechanics are all that we have to really keep them from blowing everything up. The problem, though, is that the single UAC5 is a horrible weapon. It is only really good the more of them you have (sound familiar?). So, that stock Shadowhawk 5M gets penalized from having only one but the kitted out Ilya with 3 of them is just fine. And, if that isn't the worst part, the damned thing jams even if you single fire them like a normal AC5.


My Phract 3D has 1 UAC5, 1 AC5 and 4MLs on it. Seems to work fine. Even when the UAC jams, I've at least got a standard 5 shaking them until it unjams. I'd still like to see a module that either lowers the unjam time or lessens the chance of a jam.

#8 CarlBar

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:57 PM

@Volthorne: This is what you get when the TT heat balance isn't properly transferred. UAC's are supposed to compete with double HS Energy weapons, not with normal AC's, the UAC 5 is supposed to be a complete replacement for the AC-5.

To explain.

This is a TT legal Awesome setup that would be heat nuetral, notice it's used all the tons and still isn't full armored.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d7f731b3bf8540f

This is the exact same mech with just the HS's swapped for double's,

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fcf0b49b4bf2995

See how much tonnage is free. That's what UAC's are meant to provide the ballistics equivalent to. But because MWO uses a totally different heat system that makes everything run hot, energy weapons are fairly heavily nerfed anyway, So standard ballistics keep up quite well which means UAC's, (and if they ever add multiple ammo types, LBX's), are just ridiculous. Of course once the clans hit they may be needed again.

Quote

[color=#959595]And, if that isn't the worst part, the damned thing jams even if you single fire them like a normal AC5.[/color]


Which is going to be awful for the clans because the only AC's they use are LBX and Ultra models, they stopped using standards a long time ago.

In fact anyone wanna make any bets about how they'll change the stock Bane when it shows up?

Edited by CarlBar, 10 March 2014 - 02:02 PM.


#9 stjobe

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:01 PM

View PostWillard Phule, on 10 March 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

In the novels, especially the earlier ones, they couldn't agree whether an AC (such as the AC20) fired one big bullet or several smaller ones. You see it all the time.

No you don't. They are all, to the very last one, described as firing bursts or streams of projectiles.

I challenge you to find me one single instance of an AC described as a single-shot weapon in any of the novels.

This is because, and here I quote page 207 of the Tech Manual (emphasis mine), "autocannons (often abbreviated as ACs) are a broadly varied class of rapid-firing, auto-loading, heavy ballistic weaponry - gigantic machine guns, in other words."

If you'd like, I can give you ten quotes from Decision at Thunder Rift alone that mentions the burst-fire nature of the autocannons.

Edited by stjobe, 10 March 2014 - 02:02 PM.


#10 Willard Phule

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:11 PM

View Poststjobe, on 10 March 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

No you don't. They are all, to the very last one, described as firing bursts or streams of projectiles.

I challenge you to find me one single instance of an AC described as a single-shot weapon in any of the novels.

This is because, and here I quote page 207 of the Tech Manual (emphasis mine), "autocannons (often abbreviated as ACs) are a broadly varied class of rapid-firing, auto-loading, heavy ballistic weaponry - gigantic machine guns, in other words."

If you'd like, I can give you ten quotes from Decision at Thunder Rift alone that mentions the burst-fire nature of the autocannons.


No, I get you. That's one of the biggest inconsistencies with the novels. There even seemed to be some kind of confusion in the early days of TableTop as well.

I'm too tired to go digging through novels and whatnot, but I seem to remember a Clan novel that dealt with a UAC20 and described it as 2 rounds clearing..blah blah...

I dunno, man. I know that ever since MW2, it's been a single round as far as the Mechwarrior titles were concerned. I guess from a tabletop standpoint, as long as it has the potential to do 20 points of damage to a single location, it's kosher. But, it's that single location thing that seals it. LRM20s have the potential to do 20 points of damage, if they all hit, but not to a single location...that's one of the tradeoffs.

#11 stjobe

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:23 PM

View PostWillard Phule, on 10 March 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

guess from a tabletop standpoint, as long as it has the potential to do 20 points of damage to a single location, it's kosher. But, it's that single location thing that seals it. LRM20s have the potential to do 20 points of damage, if they all hit, but not to a single location...that's one of the tradeoffs.

No, single location has zero to do with it - all direct-fire weapons except LBX had that, and of course MWO's lasers and MG shows that you don't have to go that way if you don't want to.

MG - damage spread through cone of fire and continuous-fire mechanic
lasers - damage spread through beam duration
missiles, LBX - damage spread through projectile clustering
ACs, PPCs, Gauss - no spread whatsoever, neither by duration nor clustering.

This is why ACs and PPCs dominate the game and needs to become burst-fire.

#12 Mcgral18

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:32 PM

View PostWillard Phule, on 10 March 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:


No, I get you. That's one of the biggest inconsistencies with the novels. There even seemed to be some kind of confusion in the early days of TableTop as well.

I'm too tired to go digging through novels and whatnot, but I seem to remember a Clan novel that dealt with a UAC20 and described it as 2 rounds clearing..blah blah...

I dunno, man. I know that ever since MW2, it's been a single round as far as the Mechwarrior titles were concerned. I guess from a tabletop standpoint, as long as it has the potential to do 20 points of damage to a single location, it's kosher. But, it's that single location thing that seals it. LRM20s have the potential to do 20 points of damage, if they all hit, but not to a single location...that's one of the tradeoffs.


Living Legends fired in a single shot, but they fired quickly, and didn't do ALL the damage in a single shot (the biggest issue) but over a span of time, giving the weapon a natural tendency to spread, unless the shooter was skilled.

As for novels, why don't I just quote one right now:

"Justin took a deep breath. My heart's pounding like an auto-cannon full open and firing hot." Warrior: En Garde, Battletech 5 page 108

Edited by Mcgral18, 10 March 2014 - 02:33 PM.


#13 SweetJackal

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:42 PM

The real question will be how will they set a difference between Rotary Auto Cannons and Ultra Auto Cannons?

#14 Khobai

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:43 PM

UAC mechanics have to change because clans ONLY have UACs... and they shouldnt be forced to use autocannons that constantly jam and are IMO inferior to regular autocannons.

Quote

The real question will be how will they set a difference between Rotary Auto Cannons and Ultra Auto Cannons?


They wont have to because rotary autocannons will never be in the game. Theyre 3062 technology.

Edited by Khobai, 10 March 2014 - 02:51 PM.


#15 Xeno Phalcon

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:47 PM

I would just remove the jam rate, change the weapon to function like some types of AC's in BT: IE instead of firing a single shot that can do 5 damage, have it fire five shots that do a point of damage each and then lower the cooldown slightly. Overall the ability to do more damage, but lowers its ability to do pin point damage.

#16 Mcgral18

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:48 PM

View PostXeno Phalcon, on 10 March 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

I would just remove the jam rate, change the weapon to function like some types of AC's in BT: IE instead of firing a single shot that can do 5 damage, have it fire five shots that do a point of damage each and then lower the cooldown slightly. Overall the ability to do more damage, but lowers its ability to do pin point damage.


If I could have a UAC10 or 20 like that...I would be so happy.

I think that's also what MWLL did, they fired a stream/burst compared to normal ACs, but they had a higher DPS (but you could overheat them, causing a jam)

#17 Clit Beastwood

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:53 PM

There is no need for this suggested change. What we need is a finished game within which to use our weapons.

#18 101011

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:58 PM

Sarna on the topic of Autocannons firing differently: "The autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts".

#19 Roland

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:59 PM

The most simple way to make it possible to balance uacs would be to make it such that their cool down was about half of a standard ac of the same caliber, but did about 0.7x the damage.

Then get rid of the jamming mechanic.

What you would be left with would be a weapon which could consistently put out more damage than its standard ac brethren, but which required more skill to actually land as much damage on target.

Bam! Balanced.

#20 Willard Phule

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 03:13 PM

View Poststjobe, on 10 March 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

No, single location has zero to do with it - all direct-fire weapons except LBX had that, and of course MWO's lasers and MG shows that you don't have to go that way if you don't want to.

MG - damage spread through cone of fire and continuous-fire mechanic
lasers - damage spread through beam duration
missiles, LBX - damage spread through projectile clustering
ACs, PPCs, Gauss - no spread whatsoever, neither by duration nor clustering.

This is why ACs and PPCs dominate the game and needs to become burst-fire.


Look, dude, I'm not trying to be argumentative...your name isn't "Sandpit," so I don't just arbitrarily take the opposite side of what you're saying. Keep in mind that in Tabletop, there were balances put into the game for whatever you're using....ultimately, it kind of just boils down to the loadout. I'm not even going to go into some of the BIZARRE loadouts for some of the canon mechs. But, the balance came from Energy weapons being effective but having high heat production. Missiles could do the same job, more or less, and put out less heat...but were ammo dependant. Autocannons...they did a better job of direct damage than lasers and put out less heat than Missiles...but were even more ammo dependant. But...here's what I've got, at least from my tabletop experience:

MGs: On TT, it's not a "cone of fire" effect...it's 1,2 or 3 points of damage to a single location (light, normal or heavy MGs). Here...oddly enough, it's a "hitscan" weapon like lasers. Yeah, I know, it's counter-intuitive, but that's the way the mechanic works. They nerfed it so it doesn't have the same percentage to get crits as anything else...which effectively killed my Jager.

Lasers: X damage to a single location if it hits on tabletop. Granted, you just roll dice to see if you hit and then roll again to see where you hit. Here, you've got to try to hold the laze to do the damage to a single location....pulse lasers are easier to do that with than regular ones...but, oddly enough, that kind of equates to the whole +2 to hit from tabletop, so all good there.

Missiles: Each one has a fairly easy to understand potential damage...LRM20 can do a potential of 20 damage...SRM6 can do a potential of 12. But...it's that Potential thing that screws you. If you hit, then you have to roll on the cluster chart to see how many hit. THEN you have to put them into 5 point blocks and see where they hit. I've done 4 LRM20 builds where all I really manage to do at long range is simply sandpaper all their armor off until they get close. It happens.

Autocannons: ACs...no matter how you interpret them, do their potential damage to a single location if they hit. An AC20, whether it's one big bullet or a lot of little ones, do 20 points of damage to a single location if it hits. Interpret that however you want...but it's not a gatling gun or rapidly spitting bullets. If I roll Center Torso, it does 20 to the Center Torso. Kind of hard to equate that to a video game without having a single, large bullet.

Specialty Autocannons: The LBX is, at least mechanically, a LRM10 sort of deal. Roll to hit. Roll on the cluster chart, apply each and every hit independently. Again..the sandpaper effect. If and/or when they come out with RACs, now.....there's no misinterpreting that one. It's a gatling gun. Every round does 2 or 5 points of damage if it hits. And it fires fast. That's sort of the point. If PGI ever introduces the RAC into the game...everything will change.

But, I definitely agree with you that as far as the novels were concerned, there was a lot of confusion between them and tabletop. The crux of the matter is, at least as far as tabletop mechanics were concerned, an AC does X damage to a single location if you hit. If they change that in MW:O, then they are effectively changing the base mechanics of the game. Whether that's a good or a bad thing is debatable. It'd sure change that jumpsniper meta that's all over the place, that's for sure.





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