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Observations Of A New Player


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#1 Shermburger

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 07:59 AM

Hello.

Since I couldn't find any section of this forum designated for feedback of the game, I decided to post it where I think it's most relevant.

I just recently picked up this game in the downtime between releases of titles that I am looking forward to. I was drawn by nostalgia, and little more; since 1991, I have been a fan of Mechwarrior games and, later, the novel series beginning with Exodus Road. I have never played the TT, though I have been tempted to give it a try. Over a few hours, a bunch of my friends picked up the game, moving over from Hawken to give MWO a try.

To be honest, this is half way a critique and half way a plea for help. Because although my experience has been overall negative, I think it can get better on the player's (me, and my friends) end. But I also believe that there are just issues in the game that a player cannot surmount on his own.

Highlights of our experience as fresh pilots:

Sound
This game easily has the best sounds of any Mechwarrior game to date. The bombastic ker-blam of large caliber weapons followed by the sound of the loading mechanism working its magic is phenomenal, and far better than the stock, generic vwoop sound effects of yesteryear. The music is also great. Top notch, 10/10 probably what's really keeping me in the game. I can't even really go on about it without nerdgasming about how great it is.

ECM
Why doesn't this work like any game previous? Holy cow, you have to be within such a distance to find anything with ECM that it's just silly. I understand that this is to help fight missiles, but they could have done it in other ways that don't effect everything else in the mean time. I don't think even BAP fully counters it, I could be incorrect though.

Level design
The design for the levels is visually appealing and inspired. Even the clearly alien landscapes look natural, and in some ways, totally radical. I, myself, am a fan of the Tourmaline Desert map in terms of sheer appearance. Whoever is in charge of the visuals isn't getting paid enough.

Sadly, the design of the levels always seems to favor one style of combat, and only one style of combat. Though there are stand outs that break this mold, I play a Hunchback 4G. That chassis is clearly designed for close range brawls in mind. Alas, most maps (Tourmaline Desert being one of them) always seem to draw a line over an open field, between articles of cover, etc. with very little for an AC/20 totting medium to do. Large lasers, PPCs, and Gauss rifles seem to rule the day – as they always have in Mechwarrior games. Lights tend to get in very close to their enemies, but there is a stark difference between a small mech going at 130 kph and a medium going at 91 kph, if he is built just right.

This wouldn't be as much of a problem if I had any choice regarding the maps I would be dropped into. Unfortunately, this would require a heavy revamp of the matchmaking system. The maps could also be redesigned to allow close range mechs a chance to get close to their enemy without being shot to bits. That would require a lot of work, however, and likely upset a community that has grown around these maps. So it seems the only recourse that I have is to build my mech around long range engagements. That's a shame, because I liked the massive tank cannon on my mech's shoulder. More on this next.

Heat management
As I said before, it is a fantastic thing that they made heat a bigger issue than it's ever been. More attention than ever has to be paid to heat output and heat bleed-off. There are two issues I have with the system at current, however.

The first is that, as I stated with my earlier map gripe, there is no way to select your map. So you have a very good chance to drop into a volcanic wasteland with an AC/2 boat, PPC reliant build, or some other energy heavy mech and be more or less screwed. I think it would be very lovely if the game allowed us to pick from our mech bays which vehicle we want to take out to the mission at the ready screen. That way, we know what map we will be playing on and have flexibility to make a choice in response to that.

My second issue is that, although shutting down itself is an inconvenience that can result in death, I more often than not see heavies and assaults be perfectly willing to alpha strike a medium and take the shutdown knowing full well that the medium is not in a position to do anything about it, and they can just slam the O key to override shut downs. This has been an issue in mechwarrior games from the start – everyone overrides shutdowns, and there's no reason not to. In other games, if you weren't careful, you could blow up your mech. In this, I've never seen it happen and I doubt that it even can happen. Am I wrong?

Game modes
Every game mode, Assault, Skermish, and Conquest, is for the most part the same. Assaults boil down to Skermishes; I've never seen a game won by capturing the base. Conquest is better in this regard. I see about a 50/50 between wins by resources or wins by kills. That said, conquest seems to be won easiest by one team moving together in one big mech blob. They will find a significant portion of the enemy team, wipe it out through sheer tonnage, and now they have greater initiative to go for caps with more manpower or just hunt down survivors.

Off the top of my head, I believe that conquest should allow respawns – with faster timers for lighter mechs. I have no idea how assault can be made any better, though.

Withholding mechs that are in are destroyed in a match
This is annoying as all kinds of heck. Cut it out. I lost, whatever. I want to move on and play the game in the mech I want. This was frustrating in World of Tanks, a similar game, and it's annoying here.

Weight distribution
Several times, my friends and I have gotten together in a lance with the make-up of a Raven, a Cicada, a Hunchback, and a Jagermech. In conquest games, the only type where lance seems to actually matter, it's been great fun when we find a comparable enemy lance and fight over a point. Even if we lose, it's usually a good fight.

MOST of the time, however, what happens is that we run into an enemy lance of four assaults, or an assault and three heavies, or three heavies and a light, or...

The point is that we get out-tonned more often than not, and there's just very little we can do. This has been an issue through out the mechwarrior games that I very rarely see discussed: The games tend to turn into heavy and assault beat-downs. Historically, lights and mediums have been treated as nothing more than campaign stepping stones to get into the mechs that everyone cares about. In multiplayer for any given game, there has always been a disproportionate number of heavies and assaults in play. This is because more guns and more armor trumps the use of speed as an advantage, unless you get into extremes. There were always a few who liked stand-out lights and mediums, but not many.

This game does a bang-up job in making sure that lights are elevated from their former humble place. Light mech wolfpacks are absolutely dangerous thanks to limitations in the torso twist speeds of heavy mechs, as well as their pitch limits. Since the game also goes on to make heat a bigger issue, with no coolant flushes to serve as get-out-of-jail-free cards, heavy weapons that fire and miss lights are severely penalized.

However, medium mechs lack the armor to stand up to their larger brothers. They also (save for some stand out examples) lack the speed to play any sort of role as skirmishers. Anything under 100 kph, especially something as large as most mediums, is not at all a challenge to hit. In terms of firepower, they CAN put a hurt on the enemy if allowed to, but it's still nowhere near as potent as their heavier cousins who also happen to have superior armor values.

Mediums are viable in the lore because economic and practical dropship weight restrictions make them so. Without something to reflect this context, mediums are sadly going to be under-represented.

I would love to hear the opinions of other new and veteran players on these issues, and possibly get educated on these matters.

Edited by Shermburger, 11 March 2014 - 08:17 AM.


#2 Ph30nix

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:03 AM

The fact you said you like the current heat system realy worries me.......................... and frankly makes me not want to even consider anything you hvae said lol.

as far as the holding your mech, you can thank trolls/griefers and farmers for that one. They want to get as many cbills as possible so they would just run in suicide and pop into a new game. Current system at least slows them down some.

#3 Shermburger

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:08 AM

View PostPh30nix, on 11 March 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

The fact you said you like the current heat system realy worries me.......................... and frankly makes me not want to even consider anything you hvae said lol.

as far as the holding your mech, you can thank trolls/griefers and farmers for that one. They want to get as many cbills as possible so they would just run in suicide and pop into a new game. Current system at least slows them down some.

I can see your second point. I didn't think of that. However, I do think the current heat management system helps, at least somewhat, to bridge the gap between lighter mechs and heavier ones since there is only so much firepower that can realistically be put out at once. At least, that is my experience.

#4 DeathofSelf

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:13 AM

View PostShermburger, on 11 March 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:


Withholding mechs that are in are destroyed in a match
This is annoying as all kinds of heck. Cut it out. I lost, whatever. I want to move on and play the game in the mech I want. This was frustrating in World of Tanks, a similar game, and it's annoying here.



This is done to keep people from C-Bill farming.. Welcome to the wonderful world of F2P and grinding

#5 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:15 AM

A nice review. Only thing I will grumble about is weight distribution. Some of the complain I can understand. But many of us have been playing for over a year, we have earned the right to drop in the Mechs we have acquired. Now if is a PUG drop, it would be nice if the MM would balance things better. But from a combat perspective... you are never sure what your opponent will be like. So to me, not knowing that my enemy is better/worse/even with me, and that he may be heavier/lighter is really a good thing. keeps me on my toes, and thinking. Not everyone thinks the same way I understand but what some think is broken I enjoy for the imersive effect

View PostDeathofSelf, on 11 March 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:


This is done to keep people from C-Bill farming.. Welcome to the wonderful world of F2P and grinding

Doesn't stop those guys with 74 Mechs though does it?

#6 Trauglodyte

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 08:29 AM

Pfft! New people - where do they get off?!? ;)

Welcome to the game and the board. You'll find that most of us are angsty angry old schoolers that expected something more and got a lot less. But, the game is moving on and we're hopeful, if not equally downtroden.

#7 Suko

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:00 AM

If you think ECM is bad now, be happy you weren't here last year. I think ECM was somebody's pet project and for a time period it was (perhaps still is) ton-for-ton the most OP piece of equipment in the game. I also just learned that the 3L and DDC are some of the only mechs that also get 4 module slots. lol, wut!?

I have hated ECM since day 1 and I still do. I genuinely don't think it adds depth or strategy to MWO in any meaningful way. I've said it once and I'll say it again. If PGI offered a lvl 1 tech mode (aka, no ECM or DHS mode), I would buy premium time to play it.

#8 Mcgral18

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:00 AM

In regards to ECM, yes it's a rather poor implementation. It blocks missiles entirely, although is cancelled by TAG and BAP. BAP does indeed entirely negate a single ECM unit, within 150M.

As for heat and overheating, when you override you take 200 or 400% damage when compared to normally overheating, to a random component, including your head. It will kill you quickly if you go over.

And the heat system is very poor, promoting alpha striking rather than chainfire, and heat neutral builds are all but impossible to build, and those that can be done are normally impractical.

#9 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:08 AM

Shermburger welcome to the game. In future matches are supposed to be setup as 3-3-3-3 so you have some of each mech class. Also they are going to try and have weight matching with that.

Also keep in mind the forums are some of the most negative parts fo the game haha. For example people that no longer even play but come here to complain ;) Any way have fun and see you in game.

#10 Almond Brown

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:46 AM

As to Map selection. If you could choose, you and your HB would be stuck on an even more limited # of the available Maps. The fact that we can't select the Map is "supposed" to promote a more rounded Build philosophy, but Gamers aren't much for philosophy, save their own, apparently. ;)

#11 Bhael Fire

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 09:59 AM

Nice critique.

I especially agree with you about Game Modes; they are uninspired and way too similar; especially assault and skirmish now that there's turrets in assault nobody applies pressure by capping any more.

I hoping that when Community Warfare and Attack/Defend mode is implemented they overhaul the other game modes. Would be cool to see maps specifically tailored for certain modes...right now, the game modes just feel tacked on to the maps.

#12 Sephlock

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:05 AM

Quote

Sound
This game easily has the best sounds of any Mechwarrior game to date. The bombastic ker-blam of large caliber weapons followed by the sound of the loading mechanism working its magic is phenomenal, and far better than the stock, generic vwoop sound effects of yesteryear. The music is also great. Top notch, 10/10 probably what's really keeping me in the game. I can't even really go on about it without nerdgasming about how great it is.


You make me very, very sad inside.

#13 Shermburger

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:32 AM

View PostAlmond Brown, on 11 March 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

As to Map selection. If you could choose, you and your HB would be stuck on an even more limited # of the available Maps. The fact that we can't select the Map is "supposed" to promote a more rounded Build philosophy, but Gamers aren't much for philosophy, save their own, apparently. ;)

I can totally see that. That's why I would rather have us be able to select which mech we want to take into a match after we've seen which map is presented. It's always been a thing in mechwarrior games that you should prepare yourself for the environment presented to you, not the other way around.

Also, is it just me, or do the maps feel exceptionally cramped with 24 mechs? It feels like they were designed for a 10v10 at absolute most. But, then again, that might just be because I'm seeing a disproportionate number of assaults and heavies. I remember when the game was first coming out, the marketing machine was going full-blast about how every weight class would have a role. I predicted that mediums were going to be given the short end of the stick.

#14 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:41 AM

Shermburger has it right. We prepared for the environment we were deploying to before we left, how its done here is even more FUBAR than the military does things on a day to day basis!

#15 Redshift2k5

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 10:51 AM

A BAP really does counter an ECM within the BAP's range (120m)

Weight class matching is going to be replaced soon by a new system of enforced weight class (3 of each) instead of trying/failing to make on-the-fly weight class balance

#16 Bobzilla

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 11:04 AM

I totally get what you're saying about the heat system. Heat is a problem and that's an interesting thing in the game, it's just the more you play with it you realize it is messed up and rewards/hampers things it shouldn't.

#17 Malleus011

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 11:25 AM

Your critiques are spot on, and sadly, most of them have been a problem for a long time. The developer seems uninterested in making a Battletech game, and instead seems to want us to spend piles of money on single colors of paint.

#18 Funkadelic Mayhem

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 11:54 AM

alternate accounts don't count as a new player.

#19 Shermburger

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:10 PM

View PostRedshift2k5, on 11 March 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

A BAP really does counter an ECM within the BAP's range (120m)

Weight class matching is going to be replaced soon by a new system of enforced weight class (3 of each) instead of trying/failing to make on-the-fly weight class balance

Thank you!

Can you explain how the targeting system works? I notice that targets vanish all the time, and I am lead to understand that this is from players getting in and out of the line of sight of team mates. Does BAP effect this? If a forward mech detects something with BAP, will he be highlighted for the whole team?

#20 Navy Sixes

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 12:48 PM

Well, you didn't complain about ghost heat or 3pv, so we know you're not a dummy-account troll.

Wecome to the game!

Brawlers do get screwed, but it isn't the maps' fault. Right now the distance meta is so strong that if we were given one spot on a map with a clear shot to 500 meters away, the entirety of both teams would pile up on either end and snipe.

The problem is a much more complicated question of balancing mechanics. Simply put, there is a greater reward (in terms of damage, kills, and subsequent wins) for less risk (in terms of taking damage, being killed, and subsequently losing) when you fight from a distance. As you and your friends are learning the hard way, brawlers usually get zapped while closing, before they can bring their weapons to bear.

Sure, PGI could just make a map of staggered cubes in which no one has more than a 200m line of sight, but that's not a real solution. Of course if you look around the Balance thread, you will quickly realize that no one can quite agree on what a real solution might be...

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 11 March 2014 - 12:49 PM.






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