101 replies to this topic

[Shermburger]

I guess I just don't see it. I'm looking at the shadowhawk and it's a straight upgrade in every way, shape, and form from the Hunchback. There was no indication of this in the game, and I had already become one-third complete with the quest for the mastery levels unlock. Upon buying my second hunchback, I got into one game with it and realized that I was not having fun. I have decided to give a shadowhawk a try, since it is faster, can be similarly (or better) armed, is better armored, and lacks the tell-tale 'shot here' sign that the hunch has. It's only downsides are the up-front cost and the fact that it weighs five tons more. The former does not matter much in the long run, and the later does not matter at all because the game makes no meta consideration for weight.

Unfortunately, this meant that I needed to sell both of my hunchbacks and all associated equipment. I am now back to the trial mechs, suffering through the grind in those. I am confident that my perseverance will reward me with fun eventually. I just wish I would have been given a warning that mediums are lemons, and that the Hunchback was a mediocre item in the lemon lot. Or, better yet, that the mechs were balanced better.

I cannot harp this weight issue enough. It sucks being a light/medium lance and running into a wall of Highlanders and Atlases. What are you supposed to do? Can you do anything besides run, probably with critical damage already having been done? I understand that this is supposed to be addressed soon™, but how on earth has this issue with the matchmaker not been addressed when the game has been out since september? Furthermore, how did this game get out of beta without the issue being seen clearly, comprehended, and nipped in the bud?

I dunno, guys. You're being real good to me but this game is kicking my butt all over the place.

[Joseph Mallan]

Malleus011, on 11 March 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

You should also know that medium 'mechs - which should be the workhorses of the battlefield - are currently 'hard mode' compared to the other weight classes. Instead of being the most versatile and useful, they fall into a sweet spot of vulnerability - slower than lights, less armor than heavies, and unable to duel with assaults.

They're still fun to drive, just understand that you've effectively taken a harder path than if you'd simply gotten a Highlander or a Jenner.

Workhorse
How do you expect a Medium to duel successfully with twice its mass? How do you expect a Medium to out run a Mech 2/3 its mass? It is a work horse design cause it is affordable to a government to field. That is why it is advertised the way it is.

A Work horse can do a job most any job, but it will never be the best at one thing.

[Shermburger]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 March 2014 - 03:38 AM, said:

Workhorse
How do you expect a Medium to duel successfully with twice its mass? How do you expect a Medium to out run a Mech 2/3 its mass? It is a work horse design cause it is affordable to a government to field. That is why it is advertised the way it is.

A Work horse can do a job most any job, but it will never be the best at one thing.

I think everyone understands what a 'workhorse' is. People, or at least I, am just questioning its validity in a game wherein none of the factors which make these designs so venerable exist.

That was my issue with World of Tanks, as well. A very similar game, it pit equal numbers of tanks against one another. Some of the tanks in the game were designed and deployed to win mass battles where strategic resource flow came in to the picture, rather than ye olde tank joust. Likewise, in this game, it includes an entire class of vehicle whose advantage is sustainability on the field of war. Drop ship weight limits, upkeep, and other factors don't play in to a 12v12 arena shooter.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shermburger, on 12 March 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:

I think everyone understands what a 'workhorse' is. People, or at least I, am just questioning its validity in a game wherein none of the factors which make these designs so venerable exist.

That was my issue with World of Tanks, as well. A very similar game, it pit equal numbers of tanks against one another. Some of the tanks in the game were designed and deployed to win mass battles where strategic resource flow came in to the picture, rather than ye olde tank joust. Likewise, in this game, it includes an entire class of vehicle whose advantage is sustainability on the field of war. Drop ship weight limits, upkeep, and other factors don't play in to a 12v12 arena shooter.

The reason they don't exist is the players cried and whined and exploited R&R until the DEVs removed it. What made the Medium so valuable to the armies of the Inner Sphere was cost. The Fluff was trying to make the game sound like real life. Its why the game HAS stupid designs, Heck most of the designs in MW:O are the least popular vehicles in the game. Many for the reasons we complain about them. Centurions and Hunchbacks are slow. Spiders were thin skinned lightly armed vehicles. but the purpose they had was not combat but recon. On TT I only knew ONE player who took Jagers... and that was because he was Davion Loyal!

I'm not yelling at you or even mad Shem, but there are reasons why the Mechs are built the way they are. And those reasons make perfect sense for the universe they are from.

The 12 on 12 arena shooter you reference, ISN'T everything MW:O is supposed to be. It is supposed to be much more. I am waiting till the actual game is released instead of this mock up we have been doing since closed Beta.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 March 2014 - 04:15 AM.

[Quinton99]

The game has been "out" for a lot longer than since September. You are definitely right about the balance issue being unacceptable, but at this point it's part of a pattern of conscious design choices made by PGI and it's not going to change any time soon(read: ever). As others have pointed out the 3/3/3/3 change that's coming soon should at least even things out such that there are other mediums to fight.

In the meantime it looks like you're learning what we all had to learn the hard way: Mediums are not for fair fights. At least not until you get a lot better at this game. You're additional firepower for Heavies and Assaults or, depending on your build, you can hunt lights. If you try to stand and fight anyone it's just going to get you smashed.

If you're going to stay with Hunchbacks the 4SP is really the only one worth piloting (my Founder's 4G hasn't even had an engine in it for over a year). Otherwise, you're right. Shadowhawks are a straight upgrade and even when they implement the 3 per class system there won't be a penalty for higher weights in the same weight class. Even at the same weight not all mechs are created equal. Much as I wish it weren't so, the Victor is just better than the Awesome.

Sorry about the financial beating you had to take selling your mechs, but on the bright side the trial mechs are actually decent mechs these days, since they're popular builds with the community that get upgraded to "Champion" status. The old trial mechs used to be stock builds straight from TT. Single Heat Sinks, stock armour distribution, hilariously low firepower. You might as well have been wearing a sign that said "Free Kill! I'm new!"

[Alaskan Nobody]

Shermburger, on 12 March 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

I guess I just don't see it. I'm looking at the shadowhawk and it's a straight upgrade in every way, shape, and form from the Hunchback.

While it is not much of an advantage - the Hunchie does have more than twice the torso twist the Shawk does.

Personally I have not found the jump jets to really counter that
(as slowing your speed increases your turn speed faster than JJ'ing does)

There is also the visibility issue - Shawks have almost none - especially when firing their ballistic weapons.

IE: get in close with them and you can sometimes outmaneuver them - but yeah - almost everything the Hunchie can do, the Shawk can fake.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Shermburger, on 12 March 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

I cannot harp this weight issue enough. It sucks being a light/medium lance and running into a wall of Highlanders and Atlases. What are you supposed to do? Can you do anything besides run, probably with critical damage already having been done? I understand that this is supposed to be addressed soon™, but how on earth has this issue with the matchmaker not been addressed when the game has been out since september? Furthermore, how did this game get out of beta without the issue being seen clearly, comprehended, and nipped in the bud?

I dunno, guys. You're being real good to me but this game is kicking my butt all over the place.

I drop mostly in assaults, maybe I can give you a flip side perspective on what medium & light tactics give me the most trouble?

A few days ago, I was using a boar's head with 5 ER large lasers. I think I finished off a fresh hunchback with 7 or 8 ERLL hits to the CT that was moving straight towards me. I literally fired 5 shots & the next few shots took him out. Its easy to hit targets coming straght in.

Much more difficult to target lights and mediums strafing or using lateral movement. Especially with lasers as its tough to follow their movement throughout the duration and direct it to where you want it to go.

I think with hunchbacks, ideally, you want their first few shots to hit your arms or legs. Assaults are often bristling with heavy weapons & can't fire more than a few alphas without overheating. If they fire an alpha into your arm -- they might only have one more alpha before they overheat & are at your mercy.

When you're moving into range, you'll probably want to torso twist so that your left arm is facing them(with the vulnerable hunch protected and difficult to hit & ct also protected). You probably don't want to go straight in but rather offer some lateral / strafing movement to make it more difficult for them to target you. You might also want to vary your speed. Go full throttle, then brake. Then go full throttle. & repeat. That could help them to miss.

Best case scenario - their first alpha misses or hits your left arm.

After they fire, as fast as you can, torso twist to face them and unload on them.

Then you torso twist to face you left arm or left torso to face them & give lateral movement while their weapons are recharging.

They fire their second alpha. It destroys what's left of your left arm or damages your left torso. Non critical damage.

After they fire, as fast as you can, torso twist to face them and unload on them.

If you have an ac20 with some lasers, two or 3 alphas to the CT is about enough to kill an assault. By the second alpha a lot of assauts will be close to overheating if they have haven't overheated already. This leaves you in a good position to get the win.

1 vs 1 killing an assault with a medium isn't too tough. Its much more difficult when there are 4 assaults and they're all shooting at you.

Which isn't to say a lance composed of lights and mediums couldn't defeat an assault lance. Only that situational awareness and flanking are extremely important. Some lights and mediums need to play decoy & hold their attention while the rest circle around and hit them from behind. Or you need ECM to remain undetected while you hit them from the side.

Just remember that a lot of assaults - especially ones with ER PPCs or ER large lasers are extremely prone to overheating & won't perform well against lights and mediums that give lateral movement. Its good sometimes to press 'R' and check weapons loadouts to see what you're up against and formulate a strategy on how to best handle the circumstances.

Also, if a light or medium is at point blank range, sometimes an assaults torso can't depress far enough to see them & they don't have any option other than to fire blind.

The slow turn rate of some assaults means if you can get behind one and have good throttle control and a decent amount of speed, they won't be able to turn and face you fast enough to get line of sight.

I've been dropping steadily in assaults to grind cbills, but once I've comfortably established myself I'll probably switch to meds or heavies & join the fun.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 12 March 2014 - 02:14 PM.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Shoim, on 12 March 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

As much as I appreciate the guide, Zeratul, the entire gist of your explanation boils down to "the Hunchback only has a chance if the other player has a lapse in competence."

.

My impression is a lot of people approach this as if it were COD or Battlefield 4 & expect to run randomly in circles on a map for 30 minutes and dominate.

Maybe something like that coud be considered as a future game mode to ease the transition for new players?

I think unlike *random* gameplay shooters and other FPS. There is some depth, planning and strategy involved for a person to be successful as things stand. People might laugh at me saying that, but in some ways, it is absolutely true.

Like for example, those people who discuss ECM and how to counter it. Easiest way to counter ECM is to shoot off the left torso of an Atlas DC where the ECM component is located. Or focus fire on the ECM cicada/spider/commando. I suspect things haven't progressed to a point where many players are conscious of how the decisions they make on a individual level can affect the outcome of their team winning or losing.

Maybe because they're from COD or another fps where everything is random & there's no real necessity for coordination or strategy.

Hunchbacks have options in spades as to how they could defeat an assault 1 vs 1. This game needs an option to duel or practice on a 1 vs 1 basis. That would probably be the best way for people to learn the game and realize there is a depth to it that allow lights and mediums to consistently defeat heavier mechs on a regular basis.

I don't think people fully understand what some of us mean when we say 'torso twisting'.

Maybe it does have to be demonstrated to be appreciated.

The general idea is that a person look to see which parts of their mech are being targeted. Then twist or turn to try and control which parts of their mech a person can shoot / target.

Like say if your center torso is damaged, you might turn your side to face them to make hitting your CT harder.

Griffins and hunchbacks typically have weapons on their right side knowledgeable pilots will target.

It makes sense to initially turn or twist so that the left side faces them.

Its a winning strategy.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 12 March 2014 - 05:31 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

I Zeratul I, on 12 March 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

I don't think people fully understand what some of us mean when we say 'torso twisting'.

Seconding this bit.
I have spectated more than one who thought that just twisting at all is what was meant by that.
IE: walking in one direction while shooting in another.

[Malleus011]

Believe me, Shermburger, we understand your frustration.

I've been grinding through Griffins and Wolverines from Project Phoenix, and it's discouraging. The Griffin does it's best, but it's not an auto cannon platform, and that hurts it in the current game. Nothing to be done about it; just like the Hunchbacks will always struggle with unlimited and unfettered heavies and assaults.

Hunchbacks are decent mediums, but the Shadow Hawk has clear advantages over all the other mediums (for now, until PGI alters the mechanics again, which might not happen for a long while). They're just going to be challenging.

You could always get a Cataphract or a Jager or a Highlander and join the meta; the game will get less frustrating. Personally, I find it less fun.

[Astrocanis]

Shermburger, on 12 March 2014 - 02:08 AM, said:

I guess I just don't see it. I'm looking at the shadowhawk and it's a straight upgrade in every way, shape, and form from the Hunchback. There was no indication of this in the game, and I had already become one-third complete with the quest for the mastery levels unlock. Upon buying my second hunchback, I got into one game with it and realized that I was not having fun. I have decided to give a shadowhawk a try, since it is faster, can be similarly (or better) armed, is better armored, and lacks the tell-tale 'shot here' sign that the hunch has. It's only downsides are the up-front cost and the fact that it weighs five tons more. The former does not matter much in the long run, and the later does not matter at all because the game makes no meta consideration for weight.

Unfortunately, this meant that I needed to sell both of my hunchbacks and all associated equipment. I am now back to the trial mechs, suffering through the grind in those. I am confident that my perseverance will reward me with fun eventually. I just wish I would have been given a warning that mediums are lemons, and that the Hunchback was a mediocre item in the lemon lot. Or, better yet, that the mechs were balanced better.

I cannot harp this weight issue enough. It sucks being a light/medium lance and running into a wall of Highlanders and Atlases. What are you supposed to do? Can you do anything besides run, probably with critical damage already having been done? I understand that this is supposed to be addressed soon™, but how on earth has this issue with the matchmaker not been addressed when the game has been out since september? Furthermore, how did this game get out of beta without the issue being seen clearly, comprehended, and nipped in the bud?

I dunno, guys. You're being real good to me but this game is kicking my butt all over the place.

<sigh> I have my best games in Mediums, in particular Cicadas (yeah, I know), Griffins and Wolverines. The problem you're probably having is one of patience. If you always have to be in the thick of things, first wave and all that, you're going to overheat and die. I usually hang back a bit and wait for an opportunity - and my mechs ALL go over 110 kph.

Games usually start with fairly tight groupings on both sides and the first salvos are all at range. One side or the other (hopefully the other =P ) will start to become more lax in their grouping and that's the point where the outliers become statistics if I can find them.

The problem with the game, at least in my opinion, isn't "meta", but player caused. Weapons are what weapons are and limitations are what make any game fun - otherwise we'd still be trying to unlock god mode in every game we play (and some are in this one). LRMs, machine guns (machine guns? really?), ppc/ac5 combos and poptarts are not ruining the game. Expectations that you can stand in one place and win is like believing that just because you are 5 foot 8 and flat-footed, you should play basketball like Jordan are what is making the game difficult.

The maps aren't a problem, other than the fact that Skirmish and Assault are working out the same. And that's because Skirmish was only recently added and old farts like myself were irritated at the cap wars playstyle - and it's been held over out of tradition more than anything else.

If your expectation is that you'll live as long as a light or do as much damage as an assault and tank everything in sight, you're going to be disappointed. Play with patience and a modicum of style, and you'll be much better off and like the game better.

Straight-up playstyles are discouraged in the game because no mech, regardless of class or loadout, is a Terminator that can just soak up whatever is thrown at it and still survive. The downside is that every teammate that dies lessens your odds of winning - so if you run straight in or engage too soon, particularly in a medium, you are going to be helping the other team. Because you'll be dead.

[Charons Little Helper]

Malleus011, on 12 March 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

I've been grinding through Griffins and Wolverines from Project Phoenix, and it's discouraging. The Griffin does it's best, but it's not an auto cannon platform, and that hurts it in the current game. Nothing to be done about it; just like the Hunchbacks will always struggle with unlimited and unfettered heavies and assaults.

The Griffins are very solid. They make for the best LRMisher chasis in the game - and its a better light-hunter than the shadowhawk. (same build - but with much better torso twist) Just be sure to know its limitations.

[Aym]

Shermburger, on 12 March 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:

I think everyone understands what a 'workhorse' is. People, or at least I, am just questioning its validity in a game wherein none of the factors which make these designs so venerable exist.

That was my issue with World of Tanks, as well. A very similar game, it pit equal numbers of tanks against one another. Some of the tanks in the game were designed and deployed to win mass battles where strategic resource flow came in to the picture, rather than ye olde tank joust. Likewise, in this game, it includes an entire class of vehicle whose advantage is sustainability on the field of war. Drop ship weight limits, upkeep, and other factors don't play in to a 12v12 arena shooter.

If you're not married to your screen name, you might consider re-rolling for the cadet bonus with the day of premium time. Your experience in the game will make that an even more valuable 24-hours of gaming and all you'd lose is some XP earned, right?

[Shermburger]

Astrocanis, on 12 March 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

<sigh> I have my best games in Mediums, in particular Cicadas (yeah, I know), Griffins and Wolverines. The problem you're probably having is one of patience. If you always have to be in the thick of things, first wave and all that, you're going to overheat and die. I usually hang back a bit and wait for an opportunity - and my mechs ALL go over 110 kph.

Nice assumption. I usually do hang back - and promptly get ER lasered because the maps support and encourage long-range stand offs with very few places to actually take cover.

You have to ask yourself: If your chosen class is one whose strength lay in not playing the game, then are you really a boon to your team? The answer is no, because a heavy or an assault could have taken your slot and actually contributed when it mattered. Yes, I have gotten in games where I last-hit a bunch of pre-occupied mechs with an AC/20. No, that had no meaningful impact on the game because by the time I was able to get into the battle, the other team was already decisively losing.

The lackluster performance of mediums has always been a problem in every mechwarrior game I've ever played. Why did I stand my Shadowhawk next to an Atlas and note that I was actually taller than it despite moving at roughly equivalent tactical speeds, and having less armor and firepower?

But that's not here nor there. It's not the extent of this game's problems. Maps are small and crowded; you start practically within weapons range of the enemy. Assault maps are poorly planned; some of the defense turrets hover above ground. Mediums are as large as heavies and, in some cases, assaults. Mechs in general are poorly balanced. You earn money way too slow. There are too many newb traps. To say that this has been a frustrating tenure is to flatter the game.

I've played games with greater learning curves than this. I've played EvE: Online. I've played Planetside one and two. I was able to stick with those games for months until I got good at them. But those aren't in the same genre as this, so I'll also mention that I've played World of Tanks, Navy Field, War Thunder, and Hawken. All four of them follow this game's formula. None of them are as frustrating and broken as this.

I'm a very patient man. Games that I genuinely hate, I will keep plugging away at in order to find the silver lining. I do that because I value game time with my friends highly. Mechwarrior Online, however, utterly failed to deliver a satisfying experience and as I pop my blood pressure medication, I have decided I should drop the game before it gives me a kidney stone.

I hope PGI appreciates that this game has one of the friendliest, most welcoming gaming communities I have ever seen. It's too bad that it had to be attached to one of the worst online vehicle arena-style games that I've ever played.

[YueFei]

Shermburger, on 12 March 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

Nice assumption. I usually do hang back - and promptly get ER lasered because the maps support and encourage long-range stand offs with very few places to actually take cover.

You have to ask yourself: If your chosen class is one whose strength lay in not playing the game, then are you really a boon to your team? The answer is no, because a heavy or an assault could have taken your slot and actually contributed when it mattered. Yes, I have gotten in games where I last-hit a bunch of pre-occupied mechs with an AC/20. No, that had no meaningful impact on the game because by the time I was able to get into the battle, the other team was already decisively losing.

The lackluster performance of mediums has always been a problem in every mechwarrior game I've ever played. Why did I stand my Shadowhawk next to an Atlas and note that I was actually taller than it despite moving at roughly equivalent tactical speeds, and having less armor and firepower?

But that's not here nor there. It's not the extent of this game's problems. Maps are small and crowded; you start practically within weapons range of the enemy. Assault maps are poorly planned; some of the defense turrets hover above ground. Mediums are as large as heavies and, in some cases, assaults. Mechs in general are poorly balanced. You earn money way too slow. There are too many newb traps. To say that this has been a frustrating tenure is to flatter the game.

I've played games with greater learning curves than this. I've played EvE: Online. I've played Planetside one and two. I was able to stick with those games for months until I got good at them. But those aren't in the same genre as this, so I'll also mention that I've played World of Tanks, Navy Field, War Thunder, and Hawken. All four of them follow this game's formula. None of them are as frustrating and broken as this.

I'm a very patient man. Games that I genuinely hate, I will keep plugging away at in order to find the silver lining. I do that because I value game time with my friends highly. Mechwarrior Online, however, utterly failed to deliver a satisfying experience and as I pop my blood pressure medication, I have decided I should drop the game before it gives me a kidney stone.

I hope PGI appreciates that this game has one of the friendliest, most welcoming gaming communities I have ever seen. It's too bad that it had to be attached to one of the worst online vehicle arena-style games that I've ever played.

It's true that alot of times, the "fog of war" makes it difficult in this game to discern what went wrong. That's why not only does the game have a steep learning curve, oftentimes even with an earnest player who is humble and willing to learn, it can take a loooong time to get better at this game. Only recently do I find myself able to somewhat "rewind" a fight in my mind and try to figure out what went wrong.

I suggest you drop with some of the more experienced players, who can point out exactly what your mistakes are. The limited FOV, enemies using cover and concealment, ECM, suppression fire that makes you duck into cover so you can't see what's happening, etc., all contribute to each individual player's confusion in the heat of a game. It helps alot to have seasoned wingmen who spot trouble before it arrives and can tell you what's happening.

I'm still fairly mediocre despite playing this game for awhile now. My most recent well-remembered mistake was taking my Spider around to the far right to get harrassing shots on the enemy. But instead of using the crest of the hill, I went along the bottom. I cleared the hill and got some shots, but because I spent too long at the bottom of the hill, I missed seeing an enemy Stalker's push. That mistake cost my teammate his life, because the Stalker pushed right into him and wrecked his Griffin. A failure of scouting on my part. If I had just moved near the top of the hill, and jumped up once or twice to get eyes on the situation, I would've seen that Stalker's move and warned my teammate in time to get out.

[Joseph Mallan]

Astrocanis, on 12 March 2014 - 06:20 PM, said:

<sigh> I have my best games in Mediums, in particular Cicadas (yeah, I know), Griffins and Wolverines. The problem you're probably having is one of patience. If you always have to be in the thick of things, first wave and all that, you're going to overheat and die. I usually hang back a bit and wait for an opportunity - and my mechs ALL go over 110 kph.

Games usually start with fairly tight groupings on both sides and the first salvos are all at range. One side or the other (hopefully the other =P ) will start to become more lax in their grouping and that's the point where the outliers become statistics if I can find them.

The problem with the game, at least in my opinion, isn't "meta", but player caused. Weapons are what weapons are and limitations are what make any game fun - otherwise we'd still be trying to unlock god mode in every game we play (and some are in this one). LRMs, machine guns (machine guns? really?), ppc/ac5 combos and poptarts are not ruining the game. Expectations that you can stand in one place and win is like believing that just because you are 5 foot 8 and flat-footed, you should play basketball like Jordan are what is making the game difficult.

The maps aren't a problem, other than the fact that Skirmish and Assault are working out the same. And that's because Skirmish was only recently added and old farts like myself were irritated at the cap wars playstyle - and it's been held over out of tradition more than anything else.

If your expectation is that you'll live as long as a light or do as much damage as an assault and tank everything in sight, you're going to be disappointed. Play with patience and a modicum of style, and you'll be much better off and like the game better.

Straight-up playstyles are discouraged in the game because no mech, regardless of class or loadout, is a Terminator that can just soak up whatever is thrown at it and still survive. The downside is that every teammate that dies lessens your odds of winning - so if you run straight in or engage too soon, particularly in a medium, you are going to be helping the other team. Because you'll be dead.

A very good observation. +1.

[B1zmark]

There are a few factors that seem to upset mech/weapon balance that are not mathematical. One of which you touched upon, Map design:

If we saw more urban maps (instead of cities that apparently consist of 10 houses and not some futuristic super-structure made to house thousands) then point-blank mech's would see more use. A Meta-Highlander CANNOT take down a brawling Atlas if they meet under 200M. Also light mechs being short allows them to walk under object that block larger mechs... There are less than a handful of places on all the current maps combined where a light mech can walk UNDER an object that a larger Mech cannot. This means lich mechs have to have insane speed to escape and means only a few light mechs have the hardpoints to be combat effective while moving that fast (Jenner, Firestarter) instead of simply fitting a smaller engine and having a sort of 'UrbanMech' approach to warfare (these fits are possible on light mechs currently, but not effective).

That ties into another point: Mech size and design. The Hunchback is the perfect example of poor design. The idea is that the hunch exists to house a huge, oversized weapon. However the number of slots in the 'Over sized' part of the mech is the same as a light mech - which takes an interesting piece of lore and turns it into a liability in a fight with no benefit. Half-Life 2 did character designs, then did a reality check on those designs. The result was the Combine having no shoulder pads (despite huge armoured shoulders being a staple of almost every Sci-Fi armoured combatant). A lot of Mechs need a reality check and remodel and, in a lot of cases, some need to be made smaller or larger.

[Astrocanis]

Shermburger, on 12 March 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

Nice assumption. I usually do hang back - and promptly get ER lasered because the maps support and encourage long-range stand offs with very few places to actually take cover.

You have to ask yourself: If your chosen class is one whose strength lay in not playing the game, then are you really a boon to your team? The answer is no, because a heavy or an assault could have taken your slot and actually contributed when it mattered. Yes, I have gotten in games where I last-hit a bunch of pre-occupied mechs with an AC/20. No, that had no meaningful impact on the game because by the time I was able to get into the battle, the other team was already decisively losing.

The lackluster performance of mediums has always been a problem in every mechwarrior game I've ever played. Why did I stand my Shadowhawk next to an Atlas and note that I was actually taller than it despite moving at roughly equivalent tactical speeds, and having less armor and firepower?

But that's not here nor there. It's not the extent of this game's problems. Maps are small and crowded; you start practically within weapons range of the enemy. Assault maps are poorly planned; some of the defense turrets hover above ground. Mediums are as large as heavies and, in some cases, assaults. Mechs in general are poorly balanced. You earn money way too slow. There are too many newb traps. To say that this has been a frustrating tenure is to flatter the game.

I've played games with greater learning curves than this. I've played EvE: Online. I've played Planetside one and two. I was able to stick with those games for months until I got good at them. But those aren't in the same genre as this, so I'll also mention that I've played World of Tanks, Navy Field, War Thunder, and Hawken. All four of them follow this game's formula. None of them are as frustrating and broken as this.

I'm a very patient man. Games that I genuinely hate, I will keep plugging away at in order to find the silver lining. I do that because I value game time with my friends highly. Mechwarrior Online, however, utterly failed to deliver a satisfying experience and as I pop my blood pressure medication, I have decided I should drop the game before it gives me a kidney stone.

I hope PGI appreciates that this game has one of the friendliest, most welcoming gaming communities I have ever seen. It's too bad that it had to be attached to one of the worst online vehicle arena-style games that I've ever played.

Assumption? I made none. I simply stated what I have observed about those who are having a hard time in the game. If you're not one of them, then you're ahead of the game (no pun intended).

Cover is pretty much where you find it. I have only rarely been put in a situation where I could not find cover, and it was always, without exception, my fault.

Our attempts to be helpful and create calm appear to be offensive to you. I learned never to stand between a player and his anger (and have had a fair bit of same in many games myself), so if you are truly unhappy and can't bring yourself out of the funk, a break is probably your best bet.

Mech size: with a bow towards "easy to see", the size of the mech has little to nothing to do with its hitboxes. I understand that the size discrepancies are annoying, but not especially germane. I do think that they could do a bit better job in terms of slot management.

As for my chosen class "not playing the game", mediums can be used in multiple ways. If they are fast enough, they can break an enemy group up with appropriate support from teammates (such support usually if not always missing in pugs - but it's hardly their fault that they can't read minds). The can be used as skirmishers, or as light cavalry - wait for the battle to be joined and then attack from the flank.

My Griffin and Wolverine are both very fast brawler builds and I have had my best games on them. My Cicada I play as an assault support mech with ECM and two ER LL (which of course, is an annoyance to those who believe the game should be played on a flat field within 200M of each other). I do quite well on them - and I detest playing Assaults because they are big lumbering behemoths whose only apparent purpose (to me) is to attact every light and medium in the game. Which can be useful to teammates, assuming PUGs have such a concept.

I don't really have a problem with map size - I find some of them cramped (which an urban assault, IMO, should feel like) and some of them, like Tourmaline are sized for large scale battles. The key to all the maps is to remember that they were initially designed to support 8v8, not 12v12.

Again, in my opinion, limitations are part of what makes a game interesting and fun. Others disagree.

If I have offended you with anything I have said, it was completely unintentional and I apologize.

Edited by Astrocanis, 13 March 2014 - 06:30 AM.

[Shermburger]

Astrocanis, on 13 March 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

Assumption? I made none.

You made a direct implication of my play style. But fair enough.

I ended my experiment with a positive kill-death ratio, so I knew how to play. My complaints about the medium class as a whole, while a large part of my greif with the game, wasn't the extent of it. The menus are terrible (why is the functionality of the escape key completely ignored by the UI?) Systems don't operate the way they did in any game previous. I understand their alterations to the weapons, but the relationship between ECM, BAP, and others are just so far off the mark - and it's not necessary. The game is dishonest with new players and full of potential c-bill sinks, with a frustrating grind to get the c-bills required to make up for those mistakes. There are no respawns in a game that requires you to wait until a match is completed in order to get in another with the mech you want. You can't choose your vehicle to fit the map. The maps in general start you within weapons range of the enemy team right out the gate. As you indicated, the maps are designed for teams far smaller than what we have now. You mention that as if I am to excuse the game for this oversight, when it is in fact a dire flaw. The game modes are all ultimately the same, with conquest being the only one where the objective sometimes matters.

Balance issues aside, the game itself is broken beyond reasonable levels. Every game's community gets mad at their developers, and there are always complaints. But this community is a basket of saints, given what you guys have to deal with.

This is just an example of new player experience with the game, and probably why games like War Thunder and World of Tanks are demolishing it in terms of player count and, in all likelihood as a consequence, revenue. That's saying something, considering the industry and gamers as a whole have a phobia of WWII settings these days, and Mechwarrior is an iconic sci-fi franchise in the west.

Darn shame, this is.

[Dazzer]

Hi,

I get around the locked mech problem buy buying a second mech of the same type and build and switch between the two when I die.