101 replies to this topic

[RussianWolf]

[

Ph30nix, on 11 March 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

The fact you said you like the current heat system realy worries me.......................... and frankly makes me not want to even consider anything you hvae said lol.

as far as the holding your mech, you can thank trolls/griefers and farmers for that one. They want to get as many cbills as possible so they would just run in suicide and pop into a new game. Current system at least slows them down some.

Pretty sure the reason is actually that we had Repair and Rearm originally, so the match had to end before the system knew how much you "needed". Remember not all the farmers back then died, they would simply Disco once the match started.

Joseph Mallan, on 11 March 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

A nice review. Only thing I will grumble about is weight distribution. Some of the complain I can understand. But many of us have been playing for over a year, we have earned the right to drop in the Mechs we have acquired. Now if is a PUG drop, it would be nice if the MM would balance things better. But from a combat perspective... you are never sure what your opponent will be like. So to me, not knowing that my enemy is better/worse/even with me, and that he may be heavier/lighter is really a good thing. keeps me on my toes, and thinking. Not everyone thinks the same way I understand but what some think is broken I enjoy for the imersive effect


Doesn't stop those guys with 74 Mechs though does it?

I only have 79 right now.....

Also doesn't stop those who buy multiples of a mech for just this purpose. I know someone with 3 DDCs, all identical.

[AlmightyAeng]

Shem,

The reason people are reacting negatively to your 'like' of the heat system is that our present heat system is a high capacity, low dissipation system. That encourages massive alphas, and then waiting.

The opposite of that, a low capacity, high dissipation system, encourages you to fire often, but in smaller weapon groups...and if you DO alpha you run a far greater risk of overheating.

The current system of encouraging large alpha strikes has led to a long-range snipe meta that people have found redundant and boring. 2-3 large alphas to your CT, and you're boned...whereas a lot of us wish the game was designed to be a constantly firing, knock-down drag out kind of fight...regardless of range. *shrug* I doubt the developers would even CONSIDER making such a change now, though, sadly.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 13 March 2014 - 12:52 PM.

[Charons Little Helper]

@ Shem -

While I do agree that the Shadowhawk is a more versitile mech than the Hunchback - it's not better in every way.

The Hunchback is smaller - making it a harder target - especially if close in.

The Hunchback has far better torso twist - great for brawling/twisting damage - tied for 2nd place with the wolverine (and maybe locust - lol)

The Hunchback has more energy slots. This may not seem like a huge deal - but I find that once you have an AC 20 - on a medium you don't really have the tonnage for missile weapons as secondary weaponry. My 4H has 5 small lasers (great for a knife-fight brawl). I'm actually not a big fan of the 4G as an AC20 hunchie. Sure - you can put a couple of machine guns in there too - but you can't use them while torso-twisting.

Oh - and in case you haven't figured it out yet - every hunchback should have at least a standard 250 engine. This lets you squeeze in FF armor since you don't need external heatsinks - so it doesn't actually cost as much tonnage as it seems like.

[General Taskeen]

I assume new players don't really complain a whole lot about the 'heat management' as they aren't aware of the math underneath or how it works in comparison to previous games.

MWO is the only MW game where heatsinks raise the heat threshold (so Mech is really equal in threshold unless they happen to have the same heat sinks or same type), all issues with the heat system lead back to that design problem, including terrible SHS and to some extent DHS on small engine mechs. All of that combined with the fire rates that were increased, but heat dissipation as not increased to compensate. Problems on top of problems, and then added ghost heat instead of redeveloping the heat system and duct taped everything together.

The threshold can actually reach higher (determining how much you can fire) than even MW4. But again, not all Mechs are equal thresholds in MWO, so a Mech with SHS or just less heatsinks can not fire as much causing extreme disparity and poor balancing of heatsinks and also stock Mechs.

MW3 was a base between 30-40ish for every Mech, where SHS and DHS dissipated heat quickly. (probably the closest any MW game has got to a real-time representation of it)
MW4 raised that base to a flat 60 for every Mech, and combined SHS/DHS into "heatsinks." I think mods added SHS, but not sure. People felt that 60 was too "arcadey."

MWO (PGI) decided to re-invent a wheel, which led to stupid builds that do not even exist in canon, like "6 ppc" Mechs. So Ghost Heat was slapped on, further duct taping everything together, rather than redoing the system to be closer to the games previously. Visually, the heat scale also does not show you the "over critical" state like previous games as well, it just goes to 100%, rather than showing the critical over 100% state as well.

You can sort of see the math in work here: http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/ where you raise and lower thresholds based on # of sinks and type, which can reach absurdly high especially with an Elited Mech. In previous games that I have played MW3, MW4, and MW:LL the threshold is completely fixed and does not raise or lower, so all Mechs are balanced to have the same amount of heat generation before they overheat.

Edited by General Taskeen, 13 March 2014 - 01:31 PM.

[Mystere]

XX Sulla XX, on 11 March 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Shermburger welcome to the game. In future matches are supposed to be setup as 3-3-3-3 so you have some of each mech class. Also they are going to try and have weight matching with that.

Also keep in mind the forums are some of the most negative parts fo the game haha. For example people that no longer even play but come here to complain Any way have fun and see you in game.

I will just quote myself:

Mystere, on 26 February 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

I really don't care what matchmaker is used as long as it is not used in Community Warfare. Having the composition of my planetary defense force dictated by a "balancing" matchmaker is nothing short of silly.

And because MM-related topics seem to endlessly pop up, I really need to ask: Are the majority of players here only interested in arena-styles matches? Because if that is so, then Community Warfare will end up being the biggest waste of PGI's time. We might as well just have the arena-style game that MWO is right now.

[wanderer]

Quote

I guess I just don't see it. I'm looking at the shadowhawk and it's a straight upgrade in every way, shape, and form from the Hunchback.

This is correct- though knowhow of it isn't quite through the entire population yet. The Griffin is pretty darn deadly too, especially stacking SRMs.

The Hunchback is about as middle-of-the-road as it gets. It's midweight in the middle weight tier, capable of middling speed and firepower with middling protection. The lack of jump capacity actually puts it below the middle there- and yes, that extra 5 tons and jump means that you can do pretty much Hunchback +1 with the Shaq. It's a good "trainer", though- as going through the -G, -SP, and -P trio is a good way to learn the three basic food groups- ballistics, missiles, and energy.

That you're already grasping what's better is a good sign. Go through those H-backs, learn how various weapons work on them- and then sell the lot and if you're fond of mediums, start with the 55 tonners- Shadow Hawks and Griffins being the two best. Shaqs are excellent for a mix centered around good ballistic capacity, while Griffins are capable of strong missile capacity backed up with energy hardpoints and both better fields of vision and torso twist for a wider range of fire- and both of course can jump.

Far as getting torn up at range...well, this one big reason why the fastest approach isn't often the best one- because those generally also offer the least cover, and mediums want to get close before engaging, where they can more easily surround and outmaneuver heavier units. Heavies love open stretches they can pound lighter units on, but you're capable of higher ground speed and agility, especially with an XL engine (which is where more nimble heavies generally get that speed). In open maps, avoid those long fire lanes- even Tourmaline has routes that'll let you get in on fights without suffering through a gauntlet of pain. Let the lights find them while playing it safe, then make your own approach while the big guys take the more direct route.

Edited by wanderer, 14 March 2014 - 03:44 AM.

[Shermburger]

Mystere, on 13 March 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

I will just quote myself:

To me, 3-3-3-3 just seems like the development team throwing up their hands and giving up. As if to say "look, we know mediums suck, and we can't fix it. So we'll just force people to play mediums." At worst, I see this frustrating the community and extending wait times, since I doubt your rank and file player is going to want to abandon a superior mech for an inferior one.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shermburger, on 14 March 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

To me, 3-3-3-3 just seems like the development team throwing up their hands and giving up. As if to say "look, we know mediums suck, and we can't fix it. So we'll just force people to play mediums." At worst, I see this frustrating the community and extending wait times, since I doubt your rank and file player is going to want to abandon a superior mech for an inferior one.

To me it is the DEVs giving the player base the vanilla being asked for.

[wanderer]

...except they didn't ask for vanilla, they asked for balanced team play, since that's what we're doing right now.

Imbalances in community warfare? Absolutely, please. A 12v12 nobody-loses-planets mode? Teams should be fairly balanced and not a Steiner L33t Stomp vs. random newbies in Trials and scrub pilots.

[Kaldor]

Wolfways, on 11 March 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

Probably because most of the anger on the forums is directed at PGI

^^
Best metagame ever!!

[DaZur]

Shermburger, on 14 March 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

To me, 3-3-3-3 just seems like the development team throwing up their hands and giving up. As if to say "look, we know mediums suck, and we can't fix it. So we'll just force people to play mediums." At worst, I see this frustrating the community and extending wait times, since I doubt your rank and file player is going to want to abandon a superior mech for an inferior one.

Joseph Mallan, on 14 March 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

To me it is the DEVs giving the player base the vanilla being asked for.

I has been and always will be "What's my job and" and then "Let me do it"...

You can't "make" a Medium be as productive as lights and you can't "make" them an equivalent battle asset as a Heavy or Assault without giving them a roll, a responsibility and a means to be productive that is dependent upon the niche the Medium class of mechs are supposed to represent.

In Lore Mediums were the work horse because Heavies were specialty units and Assaults were expensive prized assets...

In MW:O there is no asset value, everyone an their mother can own an Assault and there is no broad multi-faceted mission parameters to necessitate a diversified team composition.

In short... Right now the Mediums are redhead step-mech with no grander aspirations. Until PGI gives Mediums meaning and a asset value and something unique to do... It's not going to change anytime soon.

Edited by DaZur, 14 March 2014 - 08:04 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 14 March 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

...except they didn't ask for vanilla, they asked for balanced team play, since that's what we're doing right now.

Imbalances in community warfare? Absolutely, please. A 12v12 nobody-loses-planets mode? Teams should be fairly balanced and not a Steiner L33t Stomp vs. random newbies in Trials and scrub pilots.

Yes... Vanilla.

I want a game that Murphy's takes a contract to go fight Clan Wolf. We go to the planet and find the Wolf Spiders(...Intel said a Solhama Unit!!!) are there. We drop with our best the Wolf Spiders do the same, Chaos ensues, we win or we lose depending on the choices we make, not some enforced balance made mandatory cause lil Bill can't accept he made a bad choice and his Toon died.

[Shermburger]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 March 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Yes... Vanilla.

I want a game that Murphy's takes a contract to go fight Clan Wolf. We go to the planet and find the Wolf Spiders(...Intel said a Solhama Unit!!!) are there. We drop with our best the Wolf Spiders do the same, Chaos ensues, we win or we lose depending on the choices we make, not some enforced balance made mandatory cause lil Bill can't accept he made a bad choice and his Toon died.

There's no choice involved in the matchmaker lopsiding tonnage onto one team, thereby giving them more effective net staying power and offensive firepower. Mediums aren't fast enough for their speed to matter and the maps aren't large enough for maneuver warfare to make much difference. Objectives are always a short jaunt away, Assault or not.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shermburger, on 14 March 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

There's no choice involved in the matchmaker lopsiding tonnage onto one team, thereby giving them more effective net staying power and offensive firepower. Mediums aren't fast enough for their speed to matter and the maps aren't large enough for maneuver warfare to make much difference. Objectives are always a short jaunt away, Assault or not.

This is due to there being nothing more than grab 24 players and fight. We have not been playing MW:O. We have only been using the Demo.

[Shermburger]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 March 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

This is due to there being nothing more than grab 24 players and fight. We have not been playing MW:O. We have only been using the Demo.

I'm not willing to accept that as an excuse. They are generating revenue off the game. It is not a demo. It is a low-quality product.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shermburger, on 14 March 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

I'm not willing to accept that as an excuse. They are generating revenue off the game. It is not a demo. It is a low-quality product.

Its a demo,
Just like this:

Isn't a tank.

[Charons Little Helper]

Are you sure? It sure looks like a tank. It has the tracks, the gun & everythin'!

[Joseph Mallan]

Charons Little Helper, on 14 March 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Are you sure? It sure looks like a tank. It has the tracks, the gun & everythin'!

Its a dog of war!

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 March 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

Its a demo,
Just like this:

Isn't a tank.

It's not a "tank" until it shrugs off AP or HEAT rounds...

Edited by DaZur, 14 March 2014 - 09:56 AM.

[Charons Little Helper]

DaZur, on 14 March 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

It's not a "tank" until it shrugs off AP or HEAT rounds...

It probably could. (so long as they weren't shot at it - but placed gently on its shoulders)