68 replies to this topic

[Varent]

Problem -

Mech hands currently have no use other then looking pretty. They take away from the overall amount of room you have within your mech and do nothing beneficial. They are actually a detriment and about as useful as command module.

Possible Solutions -

1) Melee Combat - Allow mechs with hands the ability to do melee combat but ones without hands cannot. This would allow pilots to balance out if they want to go for mech with hands or not. Perhaps give a bonus to melee if you have 2 hands and not just one, or allow melee attacks faster, such as attacking with the left hand then the right in quick succession.

2) Make capturing points an 'uplinking' ability in wich mechs have to actually interact with a station to capture it. This could be a simple animation of a mech going up and nose bumping something on one of the oil platforms. However give mechs with hands a faster rate of capture, or just simply give mechs without hands a slower rate of capture. This would be especially beneficial for light mechs since often the commando isnt used and it would give people a reason to play it more.

3) Allow for more interaction with terrain, such as perhaps the ability to use your hand to help pull yourself up a mountain side or over a particularly stubborn ridge. Give more bonus based on if you have just one hand or two.

4) Allow mechs to pick things up with a hand. The abilities around this could be immeasureable. Picking up a downed light mech and using its corpse as a rough shield to take a few shots for you as your moving around a corner, or using a mechs arm as a club for added damage in an attack. Or perhaps for interacting with a downed mech, taking away the unexploded ammo from a destroyed mech and using it to replenish your own ammo.


Honestly these are just a few ideas off the top of my head of ways that an utterly useless component useful.

[wanderer]

Actually, missing hands and other actuators reduces melee capacity in TT, so that's already there. Being able to pick up a blown off limb and club someone? Long as you're got two hands, darn tootin! Picking up a full 20-ton 'Mech is a bit past their lifting capacity, though. Having them capture resource points faster (thereby increasing gain) isn't a bad idea either. They'd just have to implement the capacity to punch (and hopefully KICK) targets.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

proper melee would be best thing ever

[LauLiao]

I would LOVE melee combat. It's the one thing that has never appeared in any Mechwarrior/BT game (afaik) and it would be incredible. However, I'm guessing that this is more or less a pipe dream (heck, we can't even get knockdown back).

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Problem -

Mech hands currently have no use other then looking pretty. They take away from the overall amount of room you have within your mech and do nothing beneficial. They are actually a detriment and about as useful as command module.

2) Make capturing points an 'uplinking' ability in wich mechs have to actually interact with a station to capture it. This could be a simple animation of a mech going up and nose bumping something on one of the oil platforms. However give mechs with hands a faster rate of capture, or just simply give mechs without hands a slower rate of capture. This would be especially beneficial for light mechs since often the commando isnt used and it would give people a reason to play it more.

3) Allow for more interaction with terrain, such as perhaps the ability to use your hand to help pull yourself up a mountain side or over a particularly stubborn ridge. Give more bonus based on if you have just one hand or two.

I do like these ideas and they would both be relatively simple to implement and follow a degree of logic as well. The mechanics for both are already in the game essentially (Capture Accelerator and Hill Climb module), so it would seem a fairly simple modification to give mechs with hands say 50% of the effect of each of those modules (25% for mechs with only one hand) and call it a day. Not only would this give a "function" to having hands, but it would also make mechs that are otherwise very similar to each other more distinct.

Your #4 idea was cool too, but I'm trying to be realistic with what PGI can do with what they have, and I think this idea would end up requiring an awful lot more work.

Edited by LauLiao, 15 March 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[3rdworld]

Mechs with arms should have massive bonuses to hill climbing. As should those without JJs.

[Bobzilla]

Hehe just picturing an atlas pawing at a big on/off switch like a t-rex cause the pilot can't see the arms.

Some ok ideas tho.

[Commander Binz]

Melee would be great!! Not to mention adding mechs like Hatchetman

I think that mechs like Ravens should be able to drop-kick, for example -

Running at 150kph over a ridge, and doing a double leg kick to a mech below, like a guided torpedo!

[Varent]

Commander Binz, on 15 March 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

Melee would be great!! Not to mention adding mechs like Hatchetman

I think that mechs like Ravens should be able to drop-kick, for example -

Running at 150kph over a ridge, and doing a double leg kick to a mech below, like a guided torpedo!

yup

Edited by Varent, 15 March 2014 - 05:00 PM.

[Khobai]

No. Hand actuators take up 1 crit slot and no tonnage. Yet you want to give them a powerful game changing ability? No frickin way that would be balanced.

All mechs should be able to make punch attacks regardless of whether they have hand actuators or not. The only thing hand actuators should do is let you use clubs, hatchets, and swords.

You should also suffer melee damage penalties for each actuator thats missing or destroyed. So if youre missing a hand actuator, it should be a -10% damage penalty. If youre missing both a hand actuator and a lower arm actuator, it should be a -20% damage penalty.

Really thats all hand actuators should do. Anything more than that is way too much for 1 crit slot.

Edited by Khobai, 15 March 2014 - 05:24 PM.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 15 March 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

No. Hand actuators take up 1 crit slot and no tonnage. Yet you want to give them a powerful game changing ability? No frickin way that would be balanced.

Now, no one is saying a major advantage. This is simply a way to allow having a hand actuator to be useful. It also would be a way to make un-used mechs more played. All of the options were suggestions, it was not meant to be all of the above, but perahps if they could toss in ONE of those suggestions it might be a useful thing.

Also the changes I suggested were in no way game breaking.

1) Being able to melee still means closing to proper distance. Also you are lacking up to 4 slots in your mech by having lower arm actuators and hands. Even if you simply give the mechs bonuses to melee this wouldnt be game breaking. This would be flavor and possibly even help shift and change the meta more. This would be a good thing.

2) Giving a small bonus basically to just the commando to cap a point abit faster or to a few mechs as a whole is game breaking? Again, flavor and helping diversify and make the game more interesting.

3) Again its a small bonus. Right now no one even takes hill climb mod becuase they dont even bother with it.

4) I would say this would simply make the game more interesting. Keep in mind you wouldnt be able to use half of your weapons while doing things like this.

Khobai, on 15 March 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

The only thing hand actuators should do is let you use clubs, hatchets, and swords. Mechs without hand actuators can still punch other mechs. They just cant hold weapons.

You should also suffer melee damage penalties for each arm actuator thats missing or destroyed. So if youre missing a hand actuator, it might be a -10% damage penalty. If youre missing a hand actuator and lower arm actuator is might be a -20% damage penalty.

In lore, you take a negative for not having the right actuators and trying to melee. However I think using real life examples is better.

You have a bow and arrow in your hand, its long, awkward and you have to hold it exactly in the middle. I want you to get into a fist fight with it and tell me how well it works out for you.

You are also essentially already agreeing with this. The Jager for example would take a -40 to melee for its complete lack of lower arm actuators and hands while a mech with two hands would rock at it.

[Moonreign]

What if they let mechs with hands and arms with no weapon slots equip a shield type item. Have it cost a good ammount of slots and tonnage for balance. The way it could work is it would obviously cover a portion of your mech from that side but nothing from the other side and all damage done to it would be recorded onto the arm at 50%.

I think that not only would it look awesome but it would give brawling mechs a better chance of getting into range before dying. It would allow mechs to act defensively for a bit but will still get blown to pieces if they try to rely on it for too long.

[Commander Binz]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 05:25 PM, said:

You have a bow and arrow in your hand, its long, awkward and you have to hold it exactly in the middle. I want you to get into a fist fight with it and tell me how well it works out for you.

You clearly have not watched Arrow.

OT: Yes please, melee!

[Khobai]

Quote

You have a bow and arrow in your hand, its long, awkward and you have to hold it exactly in the middle. I want you to get into a fist fight with it and tell me how well it works out for you.

mechs dont use bows and arrows. they use 14 ton cannons. and if you get smacked in the face with a 14 ton cannon its gonna hurt.

Quote

You are also essentially already agreeing with this. The Jager for example would take a -40 to melee for its complete lack of lower arm actuators and hands while a mech with two hands would rock at it.

The difference is I think all mechs should be able to melee, not just the ones with hand actuators. A Jagermech thats out of ammo should still be able to walk upto you and girly slap you with its dual AC/20s. Granted it should suffer a melee damage penalty for not having hand or lower actuators. But it should still be able to make melee attacks.

A commando on the other hand (see what i did there?), with hand actuators, should be able to dual wield hatchets. Berserker commandos would be awesome. Any mechs with hand actuators should be able to equip melee weapons like clubs, hatchets, and swords. And thats enough of an advantage for hand actuators IMO.

Edited by Khobai, 15 March 2014 - 05:41 PM.

[Varent]

Khobai, on 15 March 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

mechs dont use bows and arrows. they use 14 ton cannons. and if you get smacked in the face with a 14 ton cannon its gonna hurt.

That was the sound of the entire argument going over your head.

[TehSBGX]

The most I'm expecting from pgi is a middle finger taunt >.>

[Varent]

TehSBGX, on 15 March 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

The most I'm expecting from pgi is a middle finger taunt >.>

Honestly Id even take that. Actually id be quite amused with that.

[Koniving]

Varent, on 15 March 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Problem -

Mech hands currently have no use other then looking pretty. They take away from the overall amount of room you have within your mech and do nothing beneficial. They are actually a detriment and about as useful as command module.

Possible Solutions -

1) Melee Combat - Allow mechs with hands the ability to do melee combat but ones without hands cannot. This would allow pilots to balance out if they want to go for mech with hands or not. Perhaps give a bonus to melee if you have 2 hands and not just one, or allow melee attacks faster, such as attacking with the left hand then the right in quick succession.

2) Make capturing points an 'uplinking' ability in wich mechs have to actually interact with a station to capture it. This could be a simple animation of a mech going up and nose bumping something on one of the oil platforms. However give mechs with hands a faster rate of capture, or just simply give mechs without hands a slower rate of capture. This would be especially beneficial for light mechs since often the commando isnt used and it would give people a reason to play it more.

3) Allow for more interaction with terrain, such as perhaps the ability to use your hand to help pull yourself up a mountain side or over a particularly stubborn ridge. Give more bonus based on if you have just one hand or two.

4) Allow mechs to pick things up with a hand. The abilities around this could be immeasureable. Picking up a downed light mech and using its corpse as a rough shield to take a few shots for you as your moving around a corner, or using a mechs arm as a club for added damage in an attack. Or perhaps for interacting with a downed mech, taking away the unexploded ammo from a destroyed mech and using it to replenish your own ammo.


Honestly these are just a few ideas off the top of my head of ways that an utterly useless component useful.

Melee in Mechwarrior Online


Melee in Battletech is performed either way. Battlemechs are known for using Axes, Claws, Fists, and more.
Old-school Battlemechs also used what are called Rifles. MWO's autocannons work like Rifles. Problem is Rifles are obsolete because single shots can't deal any more than 6 damage (when the base damage is 9) against current battlemech armor. The autocannons typically operate under burst fire or as fully automatic weapons. The largest Inner Sphere mech-mountable AC/20 is the Chemjet Gun, a 4-shot slow-burst autocannon that deals 5 damage per shot. In BT it'd get 6 4-shot bursts per ton, in MWO it'd get 7 4-shot bursts per ton.
The Thunderbolt has equipable hand-held weapons that come in 6 and 12 ton varieties.
Battlemasters are known for tearing the barrels of enemy weapons and then beating the enemy with them.
I've read a story about a spider pilot with mech-held Gauss Rifle who spent 2 weeks stealthily trying to pick off enemy scout lances while waiting for rescue after his dropship was blown out of the sky.

Of course... Jagermechs, Stalkers, Quickdraws and Blackjacks can all aim their arms backwards. The shoulder energy mounts on Cataphracts? They shoot backward not forward. Atlas D and K? Chest lasers? Nope, they were back lasers!

But sadly.. it isn't fair to expect that kind of quality from PGI.

[Kilo 40]

if they put melee in this game I'd walk away and never look back.

[LORD TSARKON]

An ATlas Kick is 20 damage... and a Punch I believe is 10...

Imagine if you could Kick Spiders....

Too bad it would be abused (Rodney Kinged)

[Koniving]

Knowing PGI it'd be abuse heavy.

The problem is if you missed you typically fell down, and an assault trying to punch or kick a light mech almost always missed. You had a better chance of cockpitting a Mercury (20 ton light) with an Atlas K by firing your MPLs backwards while fighting a Marauder in front of you than you actually had of successfully hitting a light mech with a melee attack.

I mention that specific one because it happened. I was gloriously happy. The MPL melted the cockpit armor and the pilot lost consciousness. After I blasted the Marauder several times, I turned around and tried to kicked the Mercury with the unconscious pilot that was fallen. I missed and fell on my ass.

Meanwhile, a Highlander tried to DFA (Death from above) my Quickdraw. He missed, fell, and over the next 30 seconds (3 turns) he had repeated failures to stand until finally he broke his own leg. Meanwhile I'm firing forward and behind at a Crab and a 6 PPC Stalker (overheated, fell on its face) simultaneously.

Quite fun. But the actual melee in Battletech was quite unreliable. You damaged yourself almost as much as you dealt damage to others. Add to that if you miss you had a good chance of falling.