78 replies to this topic

[Davers]

Willard Phule, on 12 March 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

OHO! I get it then.

So, my BAP cancels out the squirrel I'm chasing since I have to be within his bubble for it to work. Once I'm in his bubble, the tag doesn't work at all.

And since I can't mount multiple BAPs, there's no counter to this. Nice.

Pretty much. You need to get a buddy with BAP to counter his buddy with ECM.

Or get him into a 'circle of death' then drop a UAV.

Edited by Davers, 12 March 2014 - 05:14 AM.

[Prezimonto]

Willard Phule, on 11 March 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

NARC is supposed to cancel out one ECM as well.

I'm actually hoping that they listened to the majority of people in Sandpit's thread and will actually cause NARC beacons to disable the ECM bubble for a certain radius around the mech it's attahced to, as that would be a real hard reason for players to dedicate a minimum of 4 tons, 3slots, and a missile hard point to a support system. And if you want to rely on it over a match you should really take 2 tons of ammo... making it 5 tons and 4 slots.

[Willard Phule]

Davers, on 12 March 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

Pretty much. You need to get a buddy with BAP to counter his buddy with ECM.

Or get him into a 'circle of death' then drop a UAV.

Or...just switch tactics. As soon as I lose the lock because of multiple ECMs...look for where his buddies are, drop an Arty Strike in the middle of them and high-tail it back to friendly lines. And wait to chase the squirrels back out again. It's been working.

Prezimonto, on 12 March 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

I'm actually hoping that they listened to the majority of people in Sandpit's thread and will actually cause NARC beacons to disable the ECM bubble for a certain radius around the mech it's attahced to, as that would be a real hard reason for players to dedicate a minimum of 4 tons, 3slots, and a missile hard point to a support system. And if you want to rely on it over a match you should really take 2 tons of ammo... making it 5 tons and 4 slots.

If they ever bring in specialty ammo, the EM warheads for LRMs will accomplish both nullifying ECM and causing heat due to the interruption of the engine's magnetic shielding.

Granted, I'd rather have Thunders than EMs....but, hey, anything is better than the Derp missiles we've got now.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm actually hoping that they listened to the majority of people in Sandpit's thread and will actually cause NARC beacons to disable the ECM bubble for a certain radius around the mech it's attahced to, as that would be a real hard reason for players to dedicate a minimum of 4 tons, 3slots, and a missile hard point to a support system.

Its still the wrong direction to go in for ECM. ECM should just not be overpowered in the first place. Then you dont need to have everything to counter it.

[Willard Phule]

Khobai, on 12 March 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Its still the wrong direction to go in for ECM. ECM should just not be overpowered in the first place. Then you dont need to have everything to counter it.

Pretty much, exactly like that.

It's unfortunate that the developers...or, rather, the ones that matter....only pay attention to twitter and very rarely read the forums.

ECM should never have become the impenetrable umbrella it is now. Since it's marketed as a Guardian ECM Suite, it should block you from sharing your targeting data (like the C3 system)...not stop you from targeting it yourself. It shouldn't block streaks or LRM locks, either. But, we got what we got and we have to deal with it.

[Trauglodyte]

Roadkill, on 11 March 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Which is dumb, of course. ECM should not counter TAG on the firing Mech at all because the information is not being broadcast in any way. It should only counter a teammate's use of your TAG, and then only when you are within the ECM bubble.

Right. Then again, we're also dealing with grandfathered changes. TAG was originally 450m (from TT) but extended to help out LRM boats against all of the ECM carriers and was given the ability to Counter Tag. But, because PGI didn't want TAG countering Lights carrying ECM, they made it so that the 180m bubble always topped TAG. It was, at the time, checks and balances.

But, later on, they decided to allow BAP to counter ECM, which kind of makes sense in a weirdo sort of way, but never made the change to TAG. If they didn't make the change on purpose, it was probably to force people to carry two means of counter ECM for some reason that I can't figure. If they didn't make the change by accident, it was because, and this happens in a lot of games, they simply forgot what changes were made prior and never made the adjustments.

BTW, they still haven't fixed PPCs and ECM. If mech A is carrying ECM and gets hit with a PPC, the ECM is countered for 4ish seconds. If mech A is carrying ECM, while in the ECM bubble of mech B, and it it gets hit with ECM, it maintains the 2nd ECM bubble. And, if mech A isn't carrying ECM, while it is in the ECM bubble of mech B, and it gets hit with a PPC, it maintains the ECM bubble. So, it is a kind-of, sort-of, only sometimes depending on the situation counter to ECM.

stjobe, on 11 March 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Indeed, how would an ELECTRONIC counter measure device stops a laser beam (which is what the TAG is)? It should most definitely not stop TAG benefiting the TAGging 'mech itself, even if it stops the transmitting of target data to other 'mechs.

The TAG interaction with ECM is a weird one. TAG is nothing more than a laser range finder. In modern day, a laser range finder, when used with "smart" munitions, bases its current position on the internal GPS and then uses the laser to calculate the location of the target based on an internal compass. ECM is a radar static cloud that prevents sensors from picking up data but the TAG should always work to know where it is and where it is going. But, any information sent to missiles should fail once they go into the static cloud because, of course, information cannot be transmitted into it. Then again, PGI is getting around this by assuming that the calculation of heading and speed is good enough for the missiles so that they move to where the target is predicted. With us using lock ons and such, it is better to just say that it counters ECM and leave it at that instead of actually making it work like it would in real life.

It is enough to make your head hurt if you think on it long enough.

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

nope its not. shooting a laser at a stealth aircraft doesnt make it anymore detectable to radar. in tabletop ecm has no effect on tag and tag has no effect on ecm. all tag is really used for is designating targets for semi-guided lrms and arrow IV missiles.

Well, that shows what you actually know about stealth and how it works. The material used on stealth aircraft, along with the angles at which it is built, are designed to bounce radar into opposing directions and, thereby, dilute and break up it's radar signature to the point where either the system doesn't pick it up, due to age, or to make it so small that it appears as nothing more than a flock of birds. But, stealth doesn't make the aircraft impregnable as a few F-117s were lost in Yugoslavia due to SAMs and one to ground based small arms fire. If I shoot at it with a laser range finder (TAG), it is going to tell me the heading of the target, if I keep the beam on it long enough, and the distance from me to the target.

And, once again, PGI designed ECM, lock ons, TAG, etc to reflect current combat interactions. Missiles require tones like a fighter aircraft would use. ECM blocks the radar just like AWACs would do. And, we have systems which break through the ECM just like modern combat units use. Checks and balances.

Willard Phule, on 12 March 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

OHO! I get it then. So, my BAP cancels out the squirrel I'm chasing since I have to be within his bubble for it to work. Once I'm in his bubble, the tag doesn't work at all. And since I can't mount multiple BAPs, there's no counter to this. Nice.

Multiple BAPs won't help just like ECM in counter mode + BAP won't counter two ECMs. You get to shut down one ECM and nothing more. Get multiple ECM units in an area and you need to bug out or use something that doesn't require a tone.

[Bobzilla]

Trauglodyte, on 12 March 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

And, once again, PGI designed ECM, lock ons, TAG, etc to reflect current combat interactions. Missiles require tones like a fighter aircraft would use. ECM blocks the radar just like AWACs would do. And, we have systems which break through the ECM just like modern combat units use. Checks and balances.

Cept modern combat also uses laser guided smart missles, fire and forget, like SSRMs, which is really how LRMs could work so there really is no basis in reality.

[stjobe]

Trauglodyte, on 12 March 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

The TAG interaction with ECM is a weird one. TAG is nothing more than a laser range finder. In modern day, a laser range finder, when used with "smart" munitions, bases its current position on the internal GPS and then uses the laser to calculate the location of the target based on an internal compass.

It's not even that (which would require GPS connectivity the ECM could possibly hinder); it's a laser target designator; it paints the target with coded (infrared) light pulses, which the munition's sensor sees and homes onto.

There's just no way an electronic counter-measure unit could affect a laser target designator.

[Coolant]

TAG only works outside 180m. If you are 180m or closer to an ECM mech your TAG will do nothing. Outside of 180M it works fine. It allows LRM mechs to get locks on ECM mechs from long distance.

BAP will counter (1) ECM bubble within 180M. TAG will cancel nothing within 180M. If you are, say, 250M out using Streaks, your TAG WILL counter (1) ECM bubble because it's outside of 180M and your Streaks are still within range. TAG helps Streaks lock on from 181M to 270M only.

[Trauglodyte]

Bobzilla, on 12 March 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Cept modern combat also uses laser guided smart missles, fire and forget, like SSRMs, which is really how LRMs could work so there really is no basis in reality.

Eh, it is really kind of nit picking. We don't operate true fire and forget munitions unless they're using GPS guidance or we have a laser spotter on the ground which is a ghetto version of GPS guidance. They've developed the tech for cruise missiles to zoom in on digital pictures fed into the processor in the warhead so but they're so damned costly that the project was largely scrapped.

The point is, PGI essentially modeled LRMs after watching Top Gun. Right or wrong, it is what we have. NARC should allow for true fire and forget and I'm for pushing for the change. I'm also for making it so that NARC and TAG both work within the ECM bubble. Counters are, after all, complete and not piece meal.

stjobe, on 12 March 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

It's not even that (which would require GPS connectivity the ECM could possibly hinder); it's a laser target designator; it paints the target with coded (infrared) light pulses, which the munition's sensor sees and homes onto.

There's just no way an electronic counter-measure unit could affect a laser target designator.

Sorry, buddy, but you're wrong. Laser designators have been utilizing GPS for added accuracy for some years now. Painting a target doesn't do anything if the laser guided munitions don't 1) know where painter is located, 2) how far from the spotter the target is located, and 3) the given direction and bearing the target is going. Basic triangulation.

But, the new age stuff is getting even more accurate and utilizing even more information:

http://www.militarya...navigation.html

Edited by Trauglodyte, 12 March 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[DocBach]

ECM, IMO, is still the most unbalanced piece of equipment in the game by a long shot.

[mdmzero0]

Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with ECM? Before it was introduced the game was just missile boats crushing anyone who wanted to use something other than LRMs. Now you actually have to go find the mechs and shoot them. It's not like ECM makes the mechs invisible, or gives them a force field that stops bullets.

Just go shoot 'em down if you don't like it.

[Trauglodyte]

mdmzero0, on 12 March 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with ECM? Before it was introduced the game was just missile boats crushing anyone who wanted to use something other than LRMs. Now you actually have to go find the mechs and shoot them. It's not like ECM makes the mechs invisible, or gives them a force field that stops bullets.

Just go shoot 'em down if you don't like it.

I don't have an issue with ECM. I understand how it was design within the world of MWO and, because of that, I understand how it interacts with everything. My only issue with it is that it took so long to get counters and how limited the counters are based on the various patches where they added in counters. But, what gets me the most is the same thing that gets me with all of the weapon systems in this game: one is fine but add in multiples and everything goes right out of the window. And yet, there isn't an issue with multiple BAPs, TAGs, or NARCs because you only ever benefit from one of them. It is pure madness.

[Fut]

Willard Phule, on 12 March 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

OHO! I get it then.

So, my BAP cancels out the squirrel I'm chasing since I have to be within his bubble for it to work. Once I'm in his bubble, the tag doesn't work at all.

And since I can't mount multiple BAPs, there's no counter to this. Nice.

If I understand your situation properly:
The "counter" to your ECM-Squirrel running through a DDC's ECM Bubble would be to stay out of the DDC's 180m bubble, continue to TAG the Squirrel to fire off your SSRMs.

For the sake of figuring this stuff out, try mounting a TAG on a Mech without BAP. Find an ECM equipped target and hold TAG on it while advancing. Once you enter their ECM Bubble, see what happens to your TAG-Lock.
From my understanding, you'll lose your lock once you're in the bubble.

[stjobe]

Trauglodyte, on 12 March 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Sorry, buddy, but you're wrong. Laser designators have been utilizing GPS for added accuracy for some years now. Painting a target doesn't do anything if the laser guided munitions don't 1) know where painter is located, 2) how far from the spotter the target is located, and 3) the given direction and bearing the target is going. Basic triangulation.

No, that's really not how it works.

The laser seeker on the munition steers the munition towards the centre of the reflected light from the target; it doesn't have to know anything about the painter, it just needs to see that the target is flashing brightly with the right coded laser pulses.

Quote

a coded laser beam from the LTD is directed at the target. The reflected pulses from the target are scattered in many directions. They are detected by the LGW (bomb or missile) target seeker, which is a sensor on the head of the LGW responding to the same code as in the beam. The missile/bomb, which normally is fired from a distant place (e.g., an aircraft), will thus home in on the target and destroy it.

(source: http://ftp.rta.nato....-300-V26-02.pdf)

They can ALSO use GPS, but that's not needed for it to be a laser target designator.

Edited by stjobe, 12 March 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

OK, Jobe, maybe I needed to state that differently. No, you're wrong, that isn't how they currently work. Yes, laser designators do use a fractal pattern means to stear in the munitions. But, that also leads to a lot of problems of which weather is one of the largest and why we use GPS as a primary indicator today. The greater the preciptation in the air, the greater the laser gets reduced (water in the atmosphere further scatters the laser and causes issues with the information. It is also why new disgnators are using things like star patterns and the like because that information never changes (per the article).

So, now that we're both correct, where does that leave us other than TAG not working within 180m is stupid for obvious reasons. I'm fairly certain that TOW missiles never had minimum range issues short of the "squirt" coming out of the tube. Then again, most of our munitions these days are semi-fire and forget which requires the firing platform to acquire the target but then relies on the on board computer to maintain the lock. MWO LRMs don't work like that, unfortunately. But, we do maintain the ability to regain lock after firing. Would be really nice if we could dumb fire, acquire lock after, and have our payloads land on target.

[Roadkill]

Willard Phule, on 12 March 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

OHO! I get it then.

So, my BAP cancels out the squirrel I'm chasing since I have to be within his bubble for it to work. Once I'm in his bubble, the tag doesn't work at all.

And since I can't mount multiple BAPs, there's no counter to this. Nice.

Still incorrect. Please just pay attention to what people are telling you, as it has been explained very clearly multiple times in this thread.

Let's say you're standing still, you have BAP and TAG, and an ECM-equipped squirrel charges toward you leaving his ECM-equipped DDC buddy behind.

At the start of his charge, your BAP is out of range but your TAG can penetrate either enemy's coverage to allow you to gain a lock. In fact I think you can use it to get a lock when they're standing next to each other, penetrating both ECM bubbles at the same time. But I'm not positive about that one.

Once the squirrel gets close, your TAG alone would be unable to target either enemy because it would be countered by the squirrel's ECM. But you have BAP, which counters the squirrel's ECM, so I believe that you can use your TAG on either enemy. You don't actually need it to target the squirrel, though, because your BAP is countering the squirrel's ECM so he's unprotected.

Once the DDC gets close, you're screwed. You're now covered by two ECM bubbles, so the one that isn't countered by your BAP counters your TAG which prevents you from getting a lock on either enemy.

There are a few subtleties at the range margins because BAP's range is 150 meters while ECM's range is 180, but that's the basics.

[Suko]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

TAG is one more thing ECM shouldnt counter but does... ECM has absolutely zero effect on TAG in tabletop.

What ECM should do:
-counter artemis, narc, and bap when in disrupt mode
-increase missile lock-on time when in disrupt mode
-counter enemy ecm when in counter mode
-*possibly* grant stealth only to the mech its equipped on

What ECM should not do:
-counter tag
-grant stealth to other friendly mechs
-prevent missiles from locking on
-get countered by bap (bap should partially cut through ecm's stealth but bap should not do the same thing as ecm in counter mode)

People have been saying this since day 1 of ECM. It's a worthless system that I wish they would scrap. Have you ever tried explaining to a noob how ECM works. Try it sometime. About 15 seconds into it you'll pause and realize how absolutely f*cking stupid and over-complicated it is.

Edited by ShadowVFX, 12 March 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[stjobe]

Trauglodyte, on 12 March 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

OK, Jobe, maybe I needed to state that differently. No, you're wrong, that isn't how they currently work. Yes, laser designators do use a fractal pattern means to stear in the munitions. But, that also leads to a lot of problems of which weather is one of the largest and why we use GPS as a primary indicator today. The greater the preciptation in the air, the greater the laser gets reduced (water in the atmosphere further scatters the laser and causes issues with the information. It is also why new disgnators are using things like star patterns and the like because that information never changes (per the article).

Edit: Maybe I misunderstood what you're saying. The following is an attempt to explain what I thought was the error in what you said, that the guided munition needed to know the location of the spotter to be able to home in on the target; if that was not what you meant, ignore the following few paragraphs.

So let's take the Paveway IV as an example; it's a very modern multi-mode guided weapon. It can use drop dumb, or with GPS guidance and supplement this with laser guidance - or it can use laser guidance only.

If the weather is fine you can use inertial drop, GPS, and/or laser designation. If the weather is bad, inertial or GPS. If you can't get a set of GPS coordinates and something prohibits the use of laser designation, you can always drop it like a dumb munition.

Neither of those modes require it to know diddly-squat about where a possible target designator is since both systems are on-board the munition itself, and fully self-contained. The GPS system cannot be updated once the munition is dropped, and the laser sensor only homes in on the reflected light coming off the target.

So while you are correct that modern target designators do incorporate GPS units as well as laser target designators, they do not send data about where the FAC itself is, rather it sends the GPS coordinates of where the target is so the munition's on-board guidance system can be updated with those, and after it's dropped it can steer towards that point. They can then also supplement that with bouncing coded laser light off the target so that the munition's onboard laser receiver can steer towards that. There's no "basic triangulation" happening, just steering towards a GPS coordinate or a bright flashing light.

Trauglodyte, on 12 March 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

So, now that we're both correct

Win-win!

Trauglodyte, on 12 March 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

where does that leave us other than TAG not working within 180m is stupid for obvious reasons.

This, at least, we do agree on

Trauglodyte, on 12 March 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Would be really nice if we could dumb fire, acquire lock after, and have our payloads land on target.

Except for the dumb-fire part, we can. That's how you lob LRMs around terrain

Edited by stjobe, 12 March 2014 - 12:44 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Quote

People have been saying this since day 1 of ECM. It's a worthless system that I wish they would scrap. Have you ever tried explaining to a noob how ECM works. Try it sometime. About 15 seconds into it you'll pause and realize how absolutely f*cking stupid and over-complicated it is.

I won't argue whether Khobai is right or wrong. It is purely academic because it is all based on our personal feelings. Where everyone keeps banging their heads on, again right or wrong, is how PGI envisions ECM. Remember, they're taking a pen and paper/table top game and translating it to this game. In TT, ECM didn't do a lot of what we have in this game because there were no locks or sensor details. We, essentially, were playing the game as satellite transmitted data to off board generals or god, however you choose to look at it. So, here comes PGI looking at missile locks like modern day combat aircraft and redesigned ECM around it. Where they made the mistakes was not properly implementing counters and/or not having the foresight on how popular it would be and how powerful it would be when used en masse.

Quote

Except for the dumb-fire part, we can. That's how you lob LRMs around terrain

Yeah yeah, I know that we can get around terrain with locking, firing, losing lock, and reacquiring them. But, it would be damned nice if I could just fire them without lock, then lock, and have them home in.