78 replies to this topic

[Willard Phule]

Khobai, on 13 March 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Absolutely. which is why tag should be used for guiding indirect lrms, arrow IV, and artillery/airstrikes. But tag should not counter ECM. Thats just silly and has no basis in tabletop or real life.

No question about it. But...and remember, this is TT talking here...any mech on your team with "Semi-Guided" LRMs (read as TAG guided) should be able to take advantage of your TAG. Which, I guess, kind of works out as negating ECM while TAGged. Except maybe it shouldn't give any information about the target, as far as the paperdoll and loadout are concerned. Maybe.

Look, I just wish they'd turn the Guardian ECM back into the Guardian ECM. It's not like the rules aren't widely published...it shouldn't be doing what it isn't supposed to do.

You can't snipe a target at 1200m with an AC20 or a Medium Laser because....you're not supposed to be able to. It's not as if they don't understand the concept that BT was getting at. I'm thinking that it's probably a matter of not knowing how to turn ECM down a notch.

[Fut]

Khobai, on 13 March 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Absolutely. which is why tag should be used for guiding indirect lrms, arrow IV, and artillery/airstrikes. But tag should not counter ECM. Thats just silly and has no basis in tabletop or real life.

How could TAG guide LRMs if it doesn't give you the ability to lock onto the ECM equipped Mech?

[Trauglodyte]

Fut, on 13 March 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

How could TAG guide LRMs if it doesn't give you the ability to lock onto the ECM equipped Mech?

Well, in that case, you allow a target that is locked on, with LRMs fired, to remain the ability to keep the lock IF someone else keeps it TAGed (or it is NARCed) AND you maintain it as your target. Switch targets, lose the friendly TAG, or NARC disappears and the missiles lose lock.

[Lyoto Machida]

mdmzero0, on 13 March 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

I recognize that ECM as it is could stand to have a few things changed. TAG should certainly be more effective against it, and multiple ECMs shouldn't have the problems they cause. But at the same time, ECM did a very good job of changing the gameplay style from a nearly all-missile game to one that actually involves some fighting at close ranges.

Your suggestions of how to avoid LRM boats "crushing" are: hide, hide, and hide some more. AMS is great, sure, against one missile boat, but before ECM you'd get 4+ missile boats on a single team. I don't know about you, but spending an entire game hiding behind a mountain isn't my idea of a good game. Now, you see that not everyone uses missile boats, because of ECM. They still have a place, and can be devastatingly effective, but no longer are entire games just two sides of mechs launching missile volleys from across the map. I don't see that as a bad thing.

As far as preventing missile locks for all allied mechs within 180 meters, isn't that the whole point of ECM? ECM was never intended to be something used for individual mechs, it was intended to be a support for mechs that stay grouped together and work as a unit. I don't have a problem with ECM working as it is intended to.

As far as your radar not being able to detect mechs at long range using ECM, well, then your eyes should be capable of it. The mech is still there, it can still be shot.

This game seems to be rife with people who have no problems shooting down an enemy mech that's using ECM, but these forums seem to be rife with people who just want to use LRMs all match rather than any other sort of weapon.

Long story short is, LRMs have a place. They are not the be-all, end-all weapon. If you can't use LRMs because ECM has become more prominent, then learn to use lasers or ballistics, and learn to actually shoot instead of sitting back and letting the missiles do the work.

Spoken like a guy that doesn't use LRMs. You ever try torso twisting to avoid incoming direct fire while holding an LRM lock? Make LRMs fire and forget and this issue goes away.

Quick...what's your accuracy with LRMs vs direct fire weapons?

Also, ECM is not working how it is supposed. ECM is supposed to disable the benefits of BAP/NARC/Artemis...not the other way around.

"Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3] Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.^[4]"

If we're not sticking to the timeline, then PGI should add ER Medium Lasers, UAC20s and SSRM-6s now, since weapons are clearly balanced already.

[Willard Phule]

Lyoto Machida, on 13 March 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Spoken like a guy that doesn't use LRMs. You ever try torso twisting to avoid incoming direct fire while holding an LRM lock? Make LRMs fire and forget and this issue goes away.

Quick...what's your accuracy with LRMs vs direct fire weapons?

Also, ECM is not working how it is supposed. ECM is supposed to disable the benefits of BAP/NARC/Artemis...not the other way around.

"Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3] Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.^[4]"

If we're not sticking to the timeline, then PGI should add ER Medium Lasers, UAC20s and SSRM-6s now, since weapons are clearly balanced already.

What I've been saying all along. All of that HUGE text is the description of the "Guardian ECM Suite."

Now..the Angel ECM Suite is a completely different animal. It comes way down the timeline...after the Draconis Combine has had a chance to get it's hands on Clan ECM Suites...and it blocks EVERYTHING. But, we're obviously not there yet becase....Nobody, not the Draconis Combine, not me, not Joe, not anyone has had a chance to get their hands on a Clan ECM suite yet.

But, regardless. Let's keep the broken ECM crap. By all means. It's not as if PGI ever...EVER reads these forums. Perhaps someone that can navigate the crap that is Twitter might want to bring this stuff up to them. Maybe. As if they'll ever give you a solid Yes or No about anything there, either.

Welcome to Derpwarrior Online. Bend over, smile and take what they give you because...this is the only game in town. At the moment. Give it a few more months. It'll tank. Then a competent development company will take over. At least I hope.

[ArmandTulsen]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

TAG is one more thing ECM shouldnt counter but does... ECM has absolutely zero effect on TAG in tabletop.

What ECM should do:
-counter artemis, narc, and bap when in disrupt mode
-increase missile lock-on time when in disrupt mode
-counter enemy ecm when in counter mode
-*possibly* grant stealth only to the mech its equipped on

What ECM should not do:
-counter tag
-grant stealth to other friendly mechs
-prevent missiles from locking on
-get countered by bap (bap should partially cut through ecm's stealth but bap should not do the same thing as ecm in counter mode)

PGI needs a giant billboard staring them in the face outside their office windows with this.

[Trauglodyte]

Willard Phule, on 13 March 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

What I've been saying all along. All of that HUGE text is the description of the "Guardian ECM Suite."

Now..the Angel ECM Suite is a completely different animal. It comes way down the timeline...after the Draconis Combine has had a chance to get it's hands on Clan ECM Suites...and it blocks EVERYTHING. But, we're obviously not there yet becase....Nobody, not the Draconis Combine, not me, not Joe, not anyone has had a chance to get their hands on a Clan ECM suite yet.

But, regardless. Let's keep the broken ECM crap. By all means. It's not as if PGI ever...EVER reads these forums. Perhaps someone that can navigate the crap that is Twitter might want to bring this stuff up to them. Maybe. As if they'll ever give you a solid Yes or No about anything there, either.

Welcome to Derpwarrior Online. Bend over, smile and take what they give you because...this is the only game in town. At the moment. Give it a few more months. It'll tank. Then a competent development company will take over. At least I hope.

I'm not White Knighting for PGI so that is the first thing that I'll say. Second is that I'm not overly fond of ECM but I can deal with it.

Here is the thing, though. When PGI created the game, some of the first few things that they created were sensors and missile locks. With that set as a base interaction in the game and that they wanted to add in ECM, they took a look at the in-game rules for ECM and then added flavor to it based on how they viewed it with real world examples and waht was already in the game. So, they set to make ECM reduce sensor range and to disallow locks. Based on real world tech, it makes sense even though it doesn't follow what the Guardian ECM suite did in game (lots of what is in game was part of the Angel suite and other things). People scream about the "steal" impact - it isn't stealth, it is that your sensors are getting screwed so you need to get closer to get info.

Does any of that make what is in game right? Eh, it is all based on personal feelings. It isn't any different than how people view JJs, front loaded damage, or anything else. The point is, though, that I can't really counter an AC20 doing 20 damage to one location. I can, however, get around ECM. I think what pisses people off the most about ECM is that they have to take a counter when, in reality, most people just want to load into their mechs and not be bothered. When a counter is on the field, then they get all butt hurt cause it ruins their gaming experience when they should have prepped for it. If I'm running LRMs, I've got TAG on it regardless of who is dropping with me. If I'm running a scout mech, I've got TAG on it to help everyone else. Be prepared or pay the price.

Quote

What ECM should not do:
-counter tag

Definitely needs to be fixed

Edited by Trauglodyte, 14 March 2014 - 07:44 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Willard Phule, on 12 March 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

OHO! I get it then.

So, my BAP cancels out the squirrel I'm chasing since I have to be within his bubble for it to work. Once I'm in his bubble, the tag doesn't work at all.

And since I can't mount multiple BAPs, there's no counter to this. Nice.

What you need is the TAG add-on Module. It cancels ECM on a Planet wide scale. That should get you what you want...

[Almond Brown]

Quote

And, if mech A isn't carrying ECM, while it is in the ECM bubble of mech B, and it gets hit with a PPC, it maintains the ECM bubble. So, it is a kind-of, sort-of, only sometimes depending on the situation counter to ECM.

Curious? Why would a PPC effect the ECM cover of a Mech that is not carrying ECM?

PPC's only counter a carrier...

[Trauglodyte]

Almond Brown, on 14 March 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Curious? Why would a PPC effect the ECM cover of a Mech that is not carrying ECM?

PPC's only counter a carrier...

Some players assume that ECM is a "buff" instead of an area effect. I only wrote that so that people understand what it is and isn't.

[CarlBar]

Quote

[color=#959595] I think what pisses people off the most about ECM is that they have to take a counter when, in reality, most people just want to load into their mechs and not be bothered. When a counter is on the field, then they get all butt hurt cause it ruins their gaming experience when they should have prepped for it. If I'm running LRMs, I've got TAG on it regardless of who is dropping with me. If I'm running a scout mech, I've got TAG on it to help everyone else. Be prepared or pay the price.[/color]

Except there aren't any actual counters for the two big issues with ECM.

Situational Awareness and total lack of usability of LRM's in an ECM heavy environment.

TAG, BAP, and when it comes in NARC cannot light up a whole team of enemy mechs hiding under the umbrella and only TAG can do it at a distance and you have to manually spot the enemy mechs first. So it still FUBAR's situational awareness.

LRM's are equally simple. BAP and NARC are too short ranged to do anything. TAG is long ranged enough but the allready standard counter of stepping back behind terrain when fired at is a hard counter to it, quite besides the issues relating to keeping it on a moving target at range.

Both of situational awareness and LRM's issues require a long range non-LoS dependent counter. No such counter exists.

[mdmzero0]

I think it's also important to remember that while PGI tried to take concepts from tabletop, MWO is not tabletop. You want MWO to be exactly like tabletop, then go play tabletop.

Lyoto Machida, on 13 March 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Spoken like a guy that doesn't use LRMs. You ever try torso twisting to avoid incoming direct fire while holding an LRM lock? Make LRMs fire and forget and this issue goes away.

Quick...what's your accuracy with LRMs vs direct fire weapons?

Also, ECM is not working how it is supposed. ECM is supposed to disable the benefits of BAP/NARC/Artemis...not the other way around.

"Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3] Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.^[4]"

If we're not sticking to the timeline, then PGI should add ER Medium Lasers, UAC20s and SSRM-6s now, since weapons are clearly balanced already.

Have I ever tried torso twisting and maintaining an LRM lock? Of course I have, it's not easy. But it's still easier than torso twisting to prevent damage to CT/ torso equipment and using your arms as a shield while still trying to actually hit a target instead of maintain a lock because you're engaged with an enemy mech. Like I've been saying, if you have a problem with ECM, go shoot that mech. You cannot convince me that LRMs are somehow harder to use than a direct fire weapon.

[CarlBar]

Quote

[color=#959595] But it's still easier than torso twisting to prevent damage to CT/ torso equipment and using your arms as a shield while still trying to actually hit a target instead of maintain a lock because you're engaged with an enemy mech.[/color]

No it's not, both require you to turn away from the enemy, both prevent you firing further salvos, but unlike the LRM's your previous salvos have allready hit and done their damage, turning away isn't going to cause your last few salvos damage to magically be removed from your enemies.

[Almond Brown]

Quote

But if the LRM boat has line of sight to the ECM mech...then he SHOULD be able to lock it up.

If said Missile Mech has LOS, a TAG laser and is inside 750m, they sure can lock up that ECM Mech... LOL!

[Almond Brown]

Trauglodyte, on 14 March 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

Some players assume that ECM is a "buff" instead of an area effect. I only wrote that so that people understand what it is and isn't.

Oh, ok. I was wondering "wtf" on that bit...

[Almond Brown]

For all the TT diehards. ECM is a PGI "House Rule" based implementation. If the DM decides his shit doesn't stink during a TT session, then that is what happens. You don't get to do away with a "House Rule", other than it is your House, or you just go play at another House without that rule in place.

P.S. Without ECM as it is, none of the other electronic counters would even be required and that would be a shame really.

[mdmzero0]

CarlBar, on 14 March 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

No it's not, both require you to turn away from the enemy, both prevent you firing further salvos, but unlike the LRM's your previous salvos have allready hit and done their damage, turning away isn't going to cause your last few salvos damage to magically be removed from your enemies.

But again, holding a missile lock doesn't require you to have your cursor directly pointed at the mech. You have your cursor pointed just barely to the right of a mech's arm, and your missiles will still hit and do damage. Your direct fired weapons will not.

I'll accept there are challenges to either, but weapons having weaknesses is part of the game. ECM counters missiles fairly effectively, so pilots have to find ways to get around that.

[Shlkt]

In case it hasn't been made clear, the following is why your TAG isn't working within 180 meters.

ECM has two effects that concern us here:
1) It reduces the range at which the mech can be targeted
2) It scrambles sensors of nearby mechs and prevents them from locking on to anything

TAG does not provide a hard counter to ECM; i.e. your TAG laser does not disable the ECM on the target. Rather, it just "lights up" the target mech so that you can scan it normally. Basically it turns off the stealth effect, which is effect #1 above.

TAG works regardless of the number of ECM bubbles effecting your target. Even if a dozen D-DCs are standing shoulder-to-shoulder, your TAG will allow you to get a missile lock... unless ECM effect #2 comes into play.

Effect #2 means that if you close to within 180 meters then your sensors are scrambled and you cannot lock on. TAG is actually still working, but being jammed you can't share sensor data with teammates. If another teammate is close enough (270 meters) to scan the target then your TAG will help your buddy, but not you.

With BAP equipped you can cancel the effects of exactly 1 ECM device within 150 meters. This will allow you to lock on, TAG or not. With 2 ECM devices, though, your sensors are now scrambled (effect #2 above) and you cannot lock on.

Because of all the above, there are some odd range bands that effect streak missiles + BAP:

180 to 270 meters: You can shoot him with streaks
150 to 180 meters: ECM jams your sensors, you can't shoot him with streaks
0 to 150 meters: BAP cancels his ECM, you can shoot him with streaks again.

Edited by Shlkt, 14 March 2014 - 09:04 AM.

[CarlBar]

Quote

But again, holding a missile lock doesn't require you to have your cursor directly pointed at the mech. You have your cursor pointed just barely to the right of a mech's arm, and your missiles will still hit and do damage. Your direct fired weapons will not.

Yep, except that's not going to torso twist ANY damage away, at anything other than just outside minimum range the difference between holding the lock and having your recital over the target is a few degree's. LRM's also don;t fail to hit your target when you aim right but then your target walks behind a hill breaking the lock, or under ECM to break it, or is standing near multiple mechs with AMS. LRM counters are FAR FAR FAR more effective than direct fire counters ever are. Simply because LRM counters can kick in after the shots are fired but before they connect. With direct fire if you do everything right your going to connect, with LRM's even if you do everything right you've a high probability of doing very little or nothing,