78 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Trauglodyte, on 12 March 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Yeah yeah, I know that we can get around terrain with locking, firing, losing lock, and reacquiring them. But, it would be damned nice if I could just fire them without lock, then lock, and have them home in.

I haven't tried it, but what if you target a piece of terrain, fire your LRMs, and then acquire a lock - will the LRMs home in on that lock? Or will the no-target launch just fire them into the ground at your feet? Or will they just not home since you didn't have a lock at launch?

Either way, LRMs do need a bit of love, and allowing them to acquire a target after launch might just be the thing.

Edited by stjobe, 12 March 2014 - 01:07 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

mdmzero0, on 12 March 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with ECM? Before it was introduced the game was just missile boats crushing anyone who wanted to use something other than LRMs. Now you actually have to go find the mechs and shoot them. It's not like ECM makes the mechs invisible, or gives them a force field that stops bullets.

Just go shoot 'em down if you don't like it.

[Trauglodyte]

One thing that I will say is that it bothers me that ECM operates under so many rules. If two D-DCs are standing next to each other at range and I put TAG on one of the targets to disrupt its ECM, the other D-DC's ECM shouldn't cover it. I can, to a point, understand how things act when you're within the bubble - like when you've got 1 BAP vs 2 ECMs. But, it is the issue at range that just grinds on me.

stjobe, on 12 March 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

I haven't tried it, but what if you target a piece of terrain, fire your LRMs, and then acquire a lock - will the LRMs home in on that lock? Or will the no-target launch just fire them into the ground at your feet? Or will they just not home since you didn't have a lock at launch?

Either way, LRMs do need a bit of love, and allowing them to acquire a target after launch might just be the thing.

If you fire without a lock and then acquire a lock, the missiles fly off an hit the point where your reticle was when they were fired. Conversly, if you acquire a lock and fire but lose the lock, your missiles will head to the point where the target was when you fired but will turn 90 degrees if you reacquire the lock. The biggest issue with LRMs and Streaks is that the target acquisition isn't transferred to the missiles (i.e. you can't fire and forget).

Edited by Trauglodyte, 12 March 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Trauglodyte, on 12 March 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

The biggest issue with LRMs and Streaks is that the target acquisition isn't transferred to the missiles (i.e. you can't fire and forget).

If you did, you'd see LRM boats played in a different manner. One could actually torso twist reliably for a change.

[Trauglodyte]

Lyoto Machida, on 12 March 2014 - 01:16 PM, said:

If you did, you'd see LRM boats played in a different manner. One could actually torso twist reliably for a change.

I know. It would almost make the use of LRMs kind of a good thing. In defense of PGI, though, could you imagine the issues that we'd have with people running LRM boats if they ever went to fire and forget? It could reach nightmare levels. Like Jobe said, LRMs need a lot of help.

[Willard Phule]

Roadkill, on 12 March 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

Still incorrect. Please just pay attention to what people are telling you, as it has been explained very clearly multiple times in this thread.

Let's say you're standing still, you have BAP and TAG, and an ECM-equipped squirrel charges toward you leaving his ECM-equipped DDC buddy behind.

At the start of his charge, your BAP is out of range but your TAG can penetrate either enemy's coverage to allow you to gain a lock. In fact I think you can use it to get a lock when they're standing next to each other, penetrating both ECM bubbles at the same time. But I'm not positive about that one.

Once the squirrel gets close, your TAG alone would be unable to target either enemy because it would be countered by the squirrel's ECM. But you have BAP, which counters the squirrel's ECM, so I believe that you can use your TAG on either enemy. You don't actually need it to target the squirrel, though, because your BAP is countering the squirrel's ECM so he's unprotected.

Once the DDC gets close, you're screwed. You're now covered by two ECM bubbles, so the one that isn't countered by your BAP counters your TAG which prevents you from getting a lock on either enemy.

There are a few subtleties at the range margins because BAP's range is 150 meters while ECM's range is 180, but that's the basics.

No, I got it, man. Figured it out. I can TAG the D-DC while chasing the squirrel...but only until I hit the D-DC's bubble.

This whole ECM thing is completely screwy...especially since only specific 'mechs can mount it and the MM doesn't take it into consideration when putting teams together.

I can't tell you the number of times where one team has had 4 ECM mechs and the other one doesn't have a single one...normally, I'm stuck on the one that doesn't. Not that it matters...I'm configured to be an ECM squirrel hunter, anyway. But, there should be some way I can chase my squirrel period. I don't care what TT rules they have to bork sideways with a spoon, but no one single piece of equipment should be able to completely unbalance a match like ECM does.

Hell...for grins...what if they made ECM available on EVERY mech? What then? I'd pay the 1.5 ton tax to put ECM on my squirrel hunter along with BAP...and run in counter mode every single time. Makes you wonder what matches would be like then, huh?

Edited by Willard Phule, 12 March 2014 - 03:03 PM.

[Davers]

mdmzero0, on 12 March 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with ECM? Before it was introduced the game was just missile boats crushing anyone who wanted to use something other than LRMs. Now you actually have to go find the mechs and shoot them. It's not like ECM makes the mechs invisible, or gives them a force field that stops bullets.

Just go shoot 'em down if you don't like it.

It is true that LRM Atlases would easily rack up 1500 damage a match before ECM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Davers, on 12 March 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

It is true that LRM Atlases would easily rack up 1500 damage a match before ECM.

So that's how it was back in the day? Missle boats ruling the roost and everyone cowering beneath their feet? How does that explain the Gausscat and Streak/Splatcats? Swaybacks? 6 PPC Stalkers???

It wasn't as dominating as he makes it sound...aside from a couple times when LRMs were tweaked (Artemis, etc).

[DocBach]

LRM's were terrible unbalanced doing way more damage with the splash damage bug. ECM was a bandaid to fix that, I think.

Now that they took splash damage out and LRM's do more reasonable damage, toning back ECM would be nice to go along with it.

[Davers]

Lyoto Machida, on 12 March 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

So that's how it was back in the day? Missle boats ruling the roost and everyone cowering beneath their feet? How does that explain the Gausscat and Streak/Splatcats? Swaybacks? 6 PPC Stalkers???

It wasn't as dominating as he makes it sound...aside from a couple times when LRMs were tweaked (Artemis, etc).

They each had their day. Just like the month when Awesomes were the best brawling mech in the game. Some, like the Gausscat have had very long days.

[Dirus Nigh]

Khobai, on 11 March 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

TAG is one more thing ECM shouldnt counter but does... ECM has absolutely zero effect on TAG in tabletop.

What ECM should do:
-counter artemis, narc, and bap when in disrupt mode
-increase missile lock-on time when in disrupt mode
-counter enemy ecm when in counter mode
-*possibly* grant stealth only to the mech its equipped on

What ECM should not do:
-counter tag
-grant stealth to other friendly mechs
-prevent missiles from locking on
-get countered by bap (bap should partially cut through ecm's stealth but bap should not do the same thing as ecm in counter mode)

Just to add to the list for completeness, ECM should block all communication inside the bubble.

For my own thoughts on ECM.

ECM should never cause stealth for these important reasons: It divides players into haves and have nots, as it is right now ECM is a large advantage. Because its so powerful it is restricted to a handful of individual variants. ECM should be balanced enough so that any mech can use it with out creating an unfair advantage. It hinders dynamic and creative environment and map design. Because ECM works the way it does adding in effects like trees, and weather effects disrupting sensor readings, would make the game all but unplayable.

ECM should be a tool that can give an advantage when used properly. It should never be an out right advantage just for existing on a mech.

[Firelizard]

Trauglodyte, on 12 March 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

The biggest issue with LRMs and Streaks is that the target acquisition isn't transferred to the missiles (i.e. you can't fire and forget).

Bone stock LRM's in the BattleTech universe are 'command guided' types. Meaning the firing platform tells the missile where to fly based on where the sensors see the target. Having said that, a command guided weapon should be able to lock on after launch.

It would be neat if they gave us the other guidance types as alternate ammo options. Like thermal guidance, listen-kill, 'follow the leader', and dead-fire types.

[Lykaon]

No Guts No Glory, on 11 March 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

ECM counters TAG within it's 180m bubble.

So while your BAP canceled a single ECM, the remaining active ECM canceled out your TAG.

My guess is this is what happened.

BAP counters closest ECM within 150m or closer.Add a second ECM that is 151+ meters away and the initial target with ECM gets into the second ECM bubble that is out of BAP counter range and now has all it's ECM effects restored.What this means is any number of BAPs can have their counter ECM ability disabled if a single ECM is 151+ meters away from any BAP and the target being attacked is within 180m of a friendly ECM.

So you put a TAG on that target that would counter the sensor jamming effects but only if you were 181 meters or greater distance from the closest ECM.Since as has been said ECM jams TAG at 180m or less.

Now the funny part about calling all a BAP an ECM "counter" is BAP is not a hard counter it's a mitigating effect.

ECM grants invulnerability to missile lock to any unit equiped with or within 180m of a unit equiped with ECM.
BAP counters the effects of ECM when within 150m of an ECM.BAP will only counter the closest ECM.

what does this mean for streaks? Well ECM turns them off.completley off useless junk ECM totally defeats streaks.

Add A BAP to a streak equiped mech and ECM still has a negative impact on streak launchers.

Streaks 270m max range,BAP counter ECM range is 150m so even with the BAP tax paid ECM still grants defense from streaks by reducing the streaks range by 120m. Streaks go from 270m to 150m.

So essentially ECM still wins by not actually being hard countered by BAP.ECM still nerfs streaks even with a BAP in the loadout by reducing streak range to 150m from 270m.

[Lykaon]

mdmzero0, on 12 March 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with ECM? Before it was introduced the game was just missile boats crushing anyone who wanted to use something other than LRMs. Now you actually have to go find the mechs and shoot them. It's not like ECM makes the mechs invisible, or gives them a force field that stops bullets.

Just go shoot 'em down if you don't like it.

1) Missile boats "crushing" ? well if this was your experience you were probably surrounded by "talent" that was simply doing it wrong. AMS,180m min range,Hard Cover Use,Cavalry mechs to sack the LURM boats.All very strong tactics to prevent the "crushing"

2) ECM does in a way make mechs invisable.There are no passive detections of mechs breifly exposed at 200+ m that allows for someone who is not directly observing the specific spot with an advanced zoom on to actually detect the moving mech(s).Meanwhile the guys with out ECM are passivley detected at long range and are not gaining the benifits of ECM "stealth".Also,specific data is made invisable by ECM.A mech covered by ECM does not display it's type/variant/pilot/loadout or armor status these ARE made invisable this data is important when used correctly

3) No ECM does not give a mech an invisable bullet sheild.ECM does however provide a 180m radius LRM/Streak sheild that makes ALL friendly mechs immune to missile locks. Honestly a nearly 200m wide invulnerability to LRMs/Streaks for every one is significantly more potent than a bulletproof shield for a single mech.

4) No you are not the only one with no problem with ECM.This game seems to be rife with users that can not recognize a poor game feature.

[Prezimonto]

Khobai, on 12 March 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Its still the wrong direction to go in for ECM. ECM should just not be overpowered in the first place. Then you dont need to have everything to counter it.

Oh, do I ever agree.

The thing is that ECM is obviously someone (important's) pet project and/or they've invested too much into the system to every actually consider changing it.

It's a stupidly overpowered piece of equipment, and the fact that it's available on only a few mechs only serves to make the other variants of those mechs obsolete. The largest problem is that it gives a team effect that totally changes how the game is played, while taking zero skill to implement. The second largest problem is that even with all the counters to ECM, NONE of the counters actually do anything about the team effect at range... only an individual mech at a time.

I understand the TAG laser should only light up one mech at a time.

PPC EMP effects should shut down ECM totally for the 4 seconds.

NARC beacons should have it's own anti ECM radius, smaller than the ECM field, but present for the whole duration... make it 80 to 100 meters... so a NARC carrier has to hit a couple of mechs (and carry decent ammo) to counter ECM. It's still a really heavy support item. In a lot of situations, this affect would help offset the LRM support as well, as LRM carriers will likely get several targets to choose from if there's a spotter, putting some skill in tactics on the offensive team as well.

This would differentiate the methods of countering ECM... and put some skill into using ECM well.

TAG... dance out of LoS.
PPC... don't get hit more than once, as PPC effects only last 4 seconds.
NARC... now the team has to condense to an outter ring to get the ECM for 20 seconds... and the carrier of the beacon is an LRM target... so maybe step behind some cover.

[mdmzero0]

Lykaon, on 13 March 2014 - 04:29 AM, said:

1) Missile boats "crushing" ? well if this was your experience you were probably surrounded by "talent" that was simply doing it wrong. AMS,180m min range,Hard Cover Use,Cavalry mechs to sack the LURM boats.All very strong tactics to prevent the "crushing"

2) ECM does in a way make mechs invisable.There are no passive detections of mechs breifly exposed at 200+ m that allows for someone who is not directly observing the specific spot with an advanced zoom on to actually detect the moving mech(s).Meanwhile the guys with out ECM are passivley detected at long range and are not gaining the benifits of ECM "stealth".Also,specific data is made invisable by ECM.A mech covered by ECM does not display it's type/variant/pilot/loadout or armor status these ARE made invisable this data is important when used correctly

3) No ECM does not give a mech an invisable bullet sheild.ECM does however provide a 180m radius LRM/Streak sheild that makes ALL friendly mechs immune to missile locks. Honestly a nearly 200m wide invulnerability to LRMs/Streaks for every one is significantly more potent than a bulletproof shield for a single mech.

4) No you are not the only one with no problem with ECM.This game seems to be rife with users that can not recognize a poor game feature.

I recognize that ECM as it is could stand to have a few things changed. TAG should certainly be more effective against it, and multiple ECMs shouldn't have the problems they cause. But at the same time, ECM did a very good job of changing the gameplay style from a nearly all-missile game to one that actually involves some fighting at close ranges.

Your suggestions of how to avoid LRM boats "crushing" are: hide, hide, and hide some more. AMS is great, sure, against one missile boat, but before ECM you'd get 4+ missile boats on a single team. I don't know about you, but spending an entire game hiding behind a mountain isn't my idea of a good game. Now, you see that not everyone uses missile boats, because of ECM. They still have a place, and can be devastatingly effective, but no longer are entire games just two sides of mechs launching missile volleys from across the map. I don't see that as a bad thing.

As far as preventing missile locks for all allied mechs within 180 meters, isn't that the whole point of ECM? ECM was never intended to be something used for individual mechs, it was intended to be a support for mechs that stay grouped together and work as a unit. I don't have a problem with ECM working as it is intended to.

As far as your radar not being able to detect mechs at long range using ECM, well, then your eyes should be capable of it. The mech is still there, it can still be shot.

This game seems to be rife with people who have no problems shooting down an enemy mech that's using ECM, but these forums seem to be rife with people who just want to use LRMs all match rather than any other sort of weapon.

Long story short is, LRMs have a place. They are not the be-all, end-all weapon. If you can't use LRMs because ECM has become more prominent, then learn to use lasers or ballistics, and learn to actually shoot instead of sitting back and letting the missiles do the work.

[Willard Phule]

I can absolutely understand ECM preventing the sharing of targets.

Let's say you've got a scout out there without TAG and he locks up a target. His missile boat teammate in the backfield shares the target and makes it rain.

Add ECM into the mix and now the LRM boat can't share targeting with the spotter. Cool enough.

But if the LRM boat has line of sight to the ECM mech...then he SHOULD be able to lock it up. ECM was never intended, at least in all the novels I've read and all the times I've played BT, to be the end-all be-all electronic wall that it is here.

To take that a step further...go into your mechlab and tell me what piece of equipment you have on your ECM mech. I'm betting it says "Guardian ECM System" on it.

Guardian, not Angel. Guardians never blocked Streaks or any form of Missile locking. They blocked C3 systems (the ability to share targets...kind of what we've got now)...they blocked missile enhancing features (Artemis IV, in particular) and cut out the BAP's ability to detect shut down or hidden targets. That's it.

The Angel system, which comes later, shuts down everything the Guardian did and more...it shuts down Streaks and Locks.

So, effectively, PGI has given us an Angel system in a Guardian box for half the price. More or less.

[Khobai]

Quote

Well, that shows what you actually know about stealth and how it works. The material used on stealth aircraft, along with the angles at which it is built, are designed to bounce radar into opposing directions and, thereby, dilute and break up it's radar signature to the point where either the system doesn't pick it up, due to age, or to make it so small that it appears as nothing more than a flock of birds. But, stealth doesn't make the aircraft impregnable as a few F-117s were lost in Yugoslavia due to SAMs and one to ground based small arms fire. If I shoot at it with a laser range finder (TAG), it is going to tell me the heading of the target, if I keep the beam on it long enough, and the distance from me to the target.

Shooting a laser at a stealth aircraft still wont make it appear on radar nor will it disable the aircrafts ECM. What I said was correct.

[Willard Phule]

Khobai, on 13 March 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Shooting a laser at a stealth aircraft still wont make it appear on radar nor will it disable the aircrafts ECM. What I said was correct.

No...but it WILL light it up for a laser guided special delivery.

[Khobai]

Quote

No...but it WILL light it up for a laser guided special delivery.

Absolutely. which is why tag should be used for guiding indirect lrms, arrow IV, and artillery/airstrikes. But tag should not counter ECM. Thats just silly and has no basis in tabletop or real life.