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Case In Mwo Does Not Stop Damage Transfer To Ct


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#1 Ainthe

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 11:31 AM

I have seen too many erroneous posts regarding CASE in MWO. CASE in MWO differes from CASE in Battletech rules:

This is an official response from MWO Support regarding CASE:

Hello Ainthe,
CASE does not prevent ammo explosion damage, what it does is reduce the damage those explosions cause to the equivalent of 1 ton of ammo. For example if you have 6 tons of ammo on your right torso and you add CASE, if any of that ammo explodes you'll only take damage equivalent to 1 ton of ammo instead of all 6.

That damage can bleed to the CT and if your CT internals are already weakened, it is definitely possible that your engine will explode at that point.

Reppu
Senior GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™


In MWO, even if your LT or RT has CASE installed, your CT will be exposed to any damage left over from 1 ton of Ammo exploding in your LT or RT protected with CASE. What CASE does in MWO is if you have more than 1 ton of ammo in a Torso location, you will only take the damage from 1 ton of ammo. And this part needs emphasis:

*CASE IN MWO DOES NOT CONTAIN THE DAMAGE TO YOUR LT OR RT.*

Edited by Ainthe, 14 March 2014 - 11:35 AM.


#2 Fut

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 11:44 AM

Whoa!
Well this certainly sucks!
I was one of the people who believed it negated all damage from the ammo explosion.

Thank you very much for posting this, and clearing things up.

#3 Josef Koba

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 11:47 AM

While I almost never use CASE, that is indeed unfortunate.

#4 Bilbo

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 11:52 AM

It has been ages since I tested it, but I believe he is mistaken.

#5 Judge Redeemer

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 11:56 AM

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CASE

While this makes it invaluable for preventing excessive internal damage, CASE does not actually stop the explosion, it merely contains and redirects the explosive force, so after an explosion units likely will be crippled or nonfunctional, though not destroyed outright.

#6 Voidsinger

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:05 PM

CASE should not be ammunition limited, and this one ton minimum actually makes CASE useless, since one ton of ammunition of any kind will be guaranteed to destroy a mech.

Nowhere has this ever been listed before, and it is a massive departure on how CASE works.

This need clarrification from the Devs urgently, however. I have died a few times from ammunition explosion while having CASE, so support may be right.

In effect, it makes running an XL engine far less riskier, but offers little reason for a standard engine, particularly in ammunition heavy designs.

Edited by Voidsinger, 14 March 2014 - 12:07 PM.


#7 Rouken

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:11 PM

View PostVoidsinger, on 14 March 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

I have died a few times from ammunition explosion while having CASE, so support may be right.


Just to get some clarification, you were running a standard and had no ammo in your CT or head, right?

#8 Voidsinger

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:20 PM

View PostRouken, on 14 March 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:


Just to get some clarification, you were running a standard and had no ammo in your CT or head, right?


Yes. I'd been playing around with increased survivability builds. Did check after the game to be certain, and sure enough, all was protected. When it happened, I thought it was a glitch, however that support reply throws things into a different light.

#9 Madw0lf

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:32 PM

View PostVoidsinger, on 14 March 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

...., but offers little reason for a standard engine, particularly in ammunition heavy designs.

....wha? There are plenty of reasons to run a standard engine, theyre practically all I run.

#10 Mad Porthos

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:32 PM

Reppu's reply as a Gamemaster seems pretty official, but after looking many places elsewhere, I have never ever seen that as the description of what it actually does, from any other official source. I think this is a good thing, that Reppu said this, but due to it only ever seeming to have come from him, I think it is STILL possible that Reppu has shared his UNDERSTANDING of CASE, rather than necessarily precisely how it works. A clairification, specifically asking if Reppu's answer is fully correct, or if something else is the case with CASE is definitely needed.

I do know that typically, in testing, which I and others have done alot of, the incoming damage that "triggered" the ammo explosion was still there and needing to be accounted for. In for example, the case of a side torso with CASE and ammo being open (no external armor) and taking a lot of damage from missile and massed direct weapon fire, I have seen what seems to be the effect of an ammo explosion go off, but no sign that any damage transferred inward to a center torso, either to external armor or internal structure. That is a still blank, not even yellow external armor and internal structure.

In these cases, you would think that when you had 3 tons of SRM ammo there (my centurion A), that even 1 ton going off (as Reppu described) would be 200 damage... that should far and away vaporize the remaining internal structure of the side torso, then transfer 50% damage to the CENTER torso internal structure. If case still allows damage transfer OUT of the side torso and into the Center torso, then essentially what is being said is it does nothing. Look at it and tell me I'm wrong. Do the math. 1 ton of SRM (what Reppu said will still be done as damage), will be 200 damage. That will vaporize any remaining side torso internal structure. Even if somehow that side torso had like around 50+ internal structure, like on an Atlas... around 150 damage still then will be done, transferring inwards to the CENTER torso but reduced by 50%... that's 75 damage to a center torso internal structure. I've never heard of an internal structure that high. Even on an ATLAS, 75 damage transferring inwards from a side torso to the CENTER torso internal structure, will vaporize it completely. So having CASE, if Reppu is correct, does nothing beneficial in any case... because even if it meant only 1 ton of ammo's worth of damage from that location was done/transferred, that is always enough to destroy the mech, precisely what the CASE is supposed to stop damage transfer from doing. This means CASE is precisely as effective as the Command Console. Sure it does something with damage transfer, but not what it is supposed to. It's like the COLD WAR, when russia and the US each boasted that they had enough warheads to destroy the other 2500 times over, no 4000 times over, no enough to kill every one 6000 times over... etc. If case just cuts it down to the damage of only 1000 times over level of warheads, it's just pointless... dead is dead, non functional is non functional.

My own testing showed quite well to my and my friends satisfaction that of course, CASE was useless for XL because it doesn't prevent transfer INTO the area it's mounted, so it wouldn't for example stop ammo explosions in an arm from hitting a side torso and destroying the three XL engine locations there. But CASE still worked as far as I could see for the appropriate Standard Engine situations, because it served to prevent in each case I was able to test, from any additional transfer inward. Admittedly, we were testing with Gauss Rifles, which critically explode far more often than ammunition actually (90%).

Whether Reppu is telling us it has changed, or is merely misinformed, having learned what he thinks he knows about it through word of mouth when playing the game, this needs a developer post and true clairification.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 14 March 2014 - 12:41 PM.


#11 TB Freelancer

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:43 PM

Since ammo explodes about as often as everyone hits the ready button before the counter runs out, I really don't see an issue for anyone really. Its a waste of tonnage....

...just add ammo that almost never explodes and a completely borked C.A.S.E system to the laundry list of things that need fixing.

#12 Sug

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:50 PM

I'm gonna say he's wrong until I see a dev response.

Edit: While looking for an official answer on CASE I stumbed across this fact I wasn't aware of:

http://mwomercs.com/...evs-35-answers/

Quote

oldhasu: When ammo is destroyed by a critical hit, sometimes it explodes. Sometimes not. How does this calculated? What is the percentage of the probability?

A: There are two different times that ammo can explode. If an ammo bin is destroyed by a critical hit (each bin currently has 10 health), there is a 10% chance that the ammo remaining in that bin will explode. When a location, such as the right torso, is destroyed, each ammo bin in that location that had not already been destroyed by crit hits has an individual 10% chance to explode. There are two exceptions to this. The first is that, if you have ammo stored in your arm, and your arm falls off when your side torso is destroyed, there is no chance of the ammo exploding. The other is that Gauss Rifle ammo never explodes. However, all the explosion rules also apply to Gauss Rifles, except that they have a 90% chance of exploding.


Was not aware that destroying a section gave a chance for ammo explosion.

Edited by Sug, 14 March 2014 - 01:20 PM.


#13 Judge Redeemer

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 12:59 PM

C.A.S.E doesn't need fix it does its job...
if you want a magic shield go play wow paladin...

#14 Sug

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:12 PM

Ok in this old thread

http://mwomercs.com/...14#entry1474814

Bryan Ekman says this about CASE

Quote

4) First, Gauss ammo does not explode, but the Gauss rifle does (for 20 points of damage). However, it was discovered that the Gauss rifle explosion was not working properly. The fix has been completed and will be implemented in an upcoming patch.

When ammo (or a Gauss rifle) explodes, it can cause large amounts of damage. If the explosion destroys the internal structure of a location, any remaining damage is transferred inward, to the internal structure of the next location. Arms and legs transfer to the appropriate side torso, side torsos transfer to the center torso. CASE prevents the explosion from transferring past the location in which it is installed.

For example, if you have CASE installed in your left torso, any explosion that starts in, or transfers into, your left torso will never transfer any damage into your center torso.

Some of you may notice that this doesn’t do anything for Mechs with XL engines, and yet many of the canon default loadouts include XL engines and CASE in the side torsos. We are currently considering some additional tweaks that would ensure that this is not a completely useless combination.


The in game description ( :( ) of case is:

CASE prevents ammunition explosions from damaging components outside of the CASE equipped component.

Edited by Sug, 14 March 2014 - 01:23 PM.


#15 ThatNumbGuy

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:17 PM

It may have been ghost changed since then. :(

#16 Sug

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:19 PM

View PostMechwarrior Mousse, on 14 March 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

It may have been ghost changed since then. :(


True. But what a strange thing to change.

#17 Voidsinger

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:43 PM

View PostJudge Redeemer, on 14 March 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

C.A.S.E doesn't need fix it does its job...
if you want a magic shield go play wow paladin...


You seem to fail to grasp what CASE is meant to do.

CASE (as described in Battletech) works by blowing out the explosive force through selected panels. This does not save the body location, but prevents transfer from that location (usually side torso) to adjacent locations (usually centre torso). It leaves the body component destroyed (hence useless for XL engines {but would save pilot's life}).

Up until now everybody assumed CASE in MWO worked the same way. What Reppu's reply says is that it reduces the ammo explosion to 1 ton of ammo, and does not prevent any damage transfer. This is a big deal, since 1 ton of any kind of ammunition will destroy a location, and all surrounding locations. If Reppu is correct, then CASE is useless (and fraudulently sold as a protection from ammo explosions).

Nobody is looking for magical shields here. Just a piece of equipment that actually does the job.

#18 LauLiao

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 01:54 PM

How very strange...

Devs: Your community could really use an official response to this.

Of course it's entirely possible the OP is just trolling us all...

#19 Bilbo

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 02:55 PM

View PostLauLiao, on 14 March 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

How very strange...

Devs: Your community could really use an official response to this.

Of course it's entirely possible the OP is just trolling us all...

I doubt the OP is trolling. I also don't believe the GM has it right, unless they changed it without saying anything. Like I said earlier, it's been a while since I tested it, but that just isn't how it worked when I did. Excess damage from the weapon that critted the ammo transfers to the CT if the torso is lost, but the ammo explosion itself should/did not. If it works any other way now, then as others have already said, there is no reason whatever to equip CASE.

#20 Kubernetes

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 04:11 PM

How is exploding ammo damage calculated? I thought a ton of AC20 ammo exploded for 20pts, but if every unexpended round counts, that's another story.





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