96 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Void Angel, on 16 April 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Which is how I figured you were using it - I just wanted to give you my two cents worth.

A word of caution, however: As we get better with our favorite 'mechs, we're going to start running into better pilots with more focused builds; this may make builds that are working now stop working -and many of the players who advocate focused builds (including some I know personally are very good) are from the upper echelons of the player base.

I can tell you I'm certain my Elo went up for my medium rated mechs... if I drop in anything but my Griffin (for the most part) now, I start to really get challenged. Yet my Griffin (balanced design) seems to preform well with no problems... (I think I just found that perfect blend of balance for myself really. Though I did very well with the (C) Hunchback 4P...)

There are advantages and disadvantages for everything. Super focused to completely balanced. I find no one way is truly better than the other (though completely focused is probably easier to use, and easier to make than finding that fine balancing point for yourself).

Edited by Tesunie, 16 April 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Tesunie, on 16 April 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

I can tell you I'm certain my Elo went up for my medium rated mechs... if I drop in anything but my Griffin (for the most part) now, I start to really get challenged.

Similar problem with me and my poor Thunderbolts (and half my Jagers) - My JM6-A was so awesome (still one of my best K/D+W/L scores) that I can tell the difference in the players I drop with and against for my heavies.
To the point where the toughness advantages of the Thuds are almost non-existent, those guys can aim so well! \
(that and I keep forgetting to torso-twist )

[Void Angel]

The difference is that you can play to your strengths with a focused 'mech most times - it's harder with some builds in PuG play, but you can do it. With a balanced build, you're going to be at a disadvantage against anyone who wants to engage you (because he's only going to engage at his preferred range.) Your exceptional performance with the Griffin is likely due as much to the amount of training you've spent with it as the efficacy of your build. Those people who say, "oh, I'm good with everything; I don't have a favorite 'mech" either suck at introspection or are not reaching their piloting potential.

When I think about it, I would be surprised if part of what you're experiencing is due to the current problems with the meta-game - namely, that the first four minutes of combat often consists of everyone hiding behind their favorite rock while exchanging desultory gunfire and getting liquored up for the endgame. Right now, it's very hard to play a brawler, because the prevalence of long-range firepower punishes people trying to advance (or support an advance) so much that by the time they can actually come to grips with the snipers, they've often taken significant damage. That was actually what the LRM buff was partially aimed at fixing: LRMs suppress dakkamechs really well. Having something to do during this phase will help push your numbers up. But now we're seeing fixes for SRM hit registration, and nerfs to long-range autocannons - which should also help bring brawlers back to where they should be. Brawling is currently not impossible to do, but a long-range 'mech should fear a brawler who slips into knife range - and right now they often just don't care that much. They usually act more surprised than anything.

As always, if what you're doing works, keep doing it - but expect to see a jump in difficulty once brawling finally improves.

Edited by Void Angel, 16 April 2014 - 02:39 PM.

[Tesunie]

Advantage of a Focus build:
If you can keep someone in your strength, you do very well.
Disadvantage of a balanced build:
Depending upon how far you focus/balance, you will never be as strong as a focus build in it's strength.

Advantage of a Balanced build (even with a heavy focus):
If you can keep someone else in their weaker aspect, you do very well. You are never helpless.
Disadvantage of a Focus build:
If someone can keep you out of your strength, you can be weak, to useless. You can be useless at times.


There are pros and cons to every choice you make. It's a matter of how bad the pros vs the cons, and how well you can cover the cons with your pros. (AKA: "I do great with the dual AC20 Jager! I never get caught outside my range because I'm sneaky." But you still are weak at range if someone can catch you at longer ranges...)

I will not (and can not truthfully) say that Focus Builds are weak. They are often times used for very good reasons. But, there is a strength with balanced builds too, if you can use them to exploit your opponent's weaknesses.

(And not I think I'm rambling, which is a sign I should probably go to bed... in the next 2 or 3 hours maybe...)


PS: Agreed with the Brawling aspect. If that can become fixed, more balance will be seen in the game, with that rock, paper and scissors thing coming in. However, I don't feel that the fixes to Brawling will effect how my builds preform overall. Will make me want to keep more distance, instead of nearly always closing in. (What can I say? A lot of my builds are balanced builds, with a slight focus to brawling. I even often use my LRMs within 300m. I'm a rare-ish LRM brawler.)

Edited by Tesunie, 16 April 2014 - 07:57 PM.

[Tesunie]

Just because it hasn't been posted in for a while...

I have to admit something... I use to hate, despise and do absolutely HATE (don't think I can emphasis this enough) my Battlemasters. I hated them so much, I sold all of them but the 1G(P) (because I couldn't). For a long time, it sat in my mechbay gathering dust. It was set up with an XL400 engine with 2 PPCs, 4 med lasers and 2 MGs. It always seemed to see mixed performance. Sometimes it could do well (even great), most times it just died. (It still followed my guide, which can go to show that sometimes it takes a while to figure a mech out and find the right balance between roles and weapon types. You aren't going to find the perfect balance between range and close in punch on the first try.)

After months of thinking on the mech, and almost giving up on it, I decided to do something shocking. But first, I have to reveal what my mistake was. As I was designing all the other loadouts, I kept trying to push speed and mobility. This always seemed to get me into trouble them. I'd press forwards too soon. I was slow to change direction or stop/start. I was fast enough to get into trouble, but way too clumsy and slow to get out of it once I was in it. Even when I tried to snipe, that extra speed was getting me into trouble from the weight of the engine.

My mistake was I was trying to treat my Battlemaster like it was a heavy or medium mech. How I corrected this is going to sound very strange and bizarre to some people, but it worked really well. I started to treat my Battlemaster as the Assault it was! I actually even took a few notes on how many stock mechs run, as well as considered my own play style and personal skills (better with LRMs, bad with ACs).

In the end, I ended up slowing my mech down to a std 320 engine instead of the large (and vulnerable) xl 400. I retained the heavy punch of the six medium lasers for some quick close in work, and kept the cool and accurate long range punch with a large laser and UAC5 instead of the PPCs. To top off the mech, as I no longer have that vulnerable "death by side torso" problem, I added in a single LRM10 launcher for as moved into position to fire my other weapons to compensate for the slower speeds. I couldn't add in missiles of any kind before hand as the missile launcher increased my side torso's hitbox, making it too risky with that XL engine.

After all that was said and done, I went light on the ammo. I didn't need that much LRM ammo, as it's a support system to my other weapons. The UAC5, though heavy, isn't the big damage dealer of the build. By the time that weapon might threaten to run out of ammo, my med lasers are probably more needed, of the arm is gone anyway. Then, even though I only had four tons of total ammo loaded, I added in CASE to the left side, as all my ammo (and ammo dependent weapons) are located on that side. This has greatly helped, as I often tend to lose that left side torso due to the increase in hit box side from the launcher.

Notes on the build:
- The LRM launcher is handy to have on the mech, as even a few launchers can sometimes turn the balance. Even better if the enemy sees LRMs and thinks you are a boat and charges. However, due to a two button mouse (wheel button is for zoom, I like that), I changed my left shift into a third weapon group for the LRMs. Them being an "after though" in combat, I don't need fast reflexive timing with them.
- Even with 16 DHS, 6 med lasers quickly overheat you. Best to use those only when death is upon you, or when you are close in. Burst with them, then shoot the LL and AC5 combo for a while.
- LL and AC5 are the long range weapons of the build. LRMs also help when possible. These weapons also run cool, so shoot them when you are running hot.
(Possible suggested use of med lasers, set them on chain fire and quickly press the fire button till you shoot the desired number of lasers off. Can greatly help with heat control, compared to always alpha striking those lasers. NEED TO REMEMBER THIS!)


(Mostly a post to post the thread up, but I also wanted to share my newest mech building challenge, months in the making! Helps to show that, even a mech you hate can turn into a mech you love once you find the right build for you with it.)

[Tesunie]

I think something I never touched with this guide was balance of speed and tonnage... This balance was off on my Battlemaster, which was why it wasn't working for me.

I should probably go fix that...

[Arctourus]

I had the same problem with the battlemaster at first. It's a tricky mech to pilot. I remember raging that I couldn't fit an ac20 into any of them. I've run my 1g(p) with a pair of erllas in the top shoulder slots, four mlas beneath and an lrm 15 for a long time. It always ran great for me. I tried it with every other combination of medium ballistic before and couldn't find anything that really popped for me. A 2 and a 5 were too small, a UAC jammed too much, a 10 didn't really feel like it was worth the space and weight and the arm position is too low for a sniping guass build.

[Tesunie]

Arctourus, on 14 July 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

I had the same problem with the battlemaster at first. It's a tricky mech to pilot. I remember raging that I couldn't fit an ac20 into any of them. I've run my 1g(p) with a pair of erllas in the top shoulder slots, four mlas beneath and an lrm 15 for a long time. It always ran great for me. I tried it with every other combination of medium ballistic before and couldn't find anything that really popped for me. A 2 and a 5 were too small, a UAC jammed too much, a 10 didn't really feel like it was worth the space and weight and the arm position is too low for a sniping guass build.

I found I didn't have enough punch for the two long range weapons, and diminishing the med laser count from 6 to 4 hurt me in the close quarters fighting. The LRMs were a problem for a while for me for two reasons, either I didn't have enough mouse buttons (till I gave in and made shift a weapon group) or I had that XL in there and the missiles increased the left torso hitbox dangerously for the XL.
That AC mount is really low, and often times shoots into hills and stuff. I have the UAC for range when possible, but for some cool running close in work when I'm getting hot.

I have to agree. A large XL Battlemaster would benefit most from an AC20 on it. With the increase speed of the Battlemaster as well as assault level armor, it could work well for a brawler assault. Between massed (6-7) med lasers and an AC20 (probably 2 large lasers, 4 med and an AC20 or something), it could really be a beast of a brawler with it's speeds. Especially considering how low the ballistic mount is on the arm, it isn't made for sniping so much, which makes you really want to place that AC20 in there. (I have the UAC5 and LL on the arms to help counter the low twist rate with at least some weapons personally. I also find, even with the jam rates, the UAC to be effective at hurting light mechs and the LL and UAC compliment each other for ranges.)

The Battlemaster (especially the 1G, which is the most gimped one not only because of it's hard point placement (low slung ballistic arm, with it placed even lower on the arm) but also because of it's lowest twist rates) is a hard ride to get something to work for. It's not a meta mech, and it tends to boat a lot of energy (hot) as well as tempts people with that large engine cap on it... The large engine cap was a pit fall for me, as I tried to make the mech run like my Dragon, but that wasn't all that effective for it...

[Void Angel]

Tesunie, on 14 July 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:

I think something I never touched with this guide was balance of speed and tonnage... This balance was off on my Battlemaster, which was why it wasn't working for me.

I should probably go fix that...

Speed and heat balancing are always a part of any design - focused or not. For example, I've gone up to a 400 XL in my Battlemaster, but also gone down to smaller engines as my performance and opponents shifted. In either case, I was trying to find the correct firepower/speed/efficiency balance for whatever I was trying to do.

It should be noted that this essential balance is required whether or not you're going for a "focused" build, or a "balanced" setup.

[Tesunie]

Void Angel, on 14 July 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

Speed and heat balancing are always a part of any design - focused or not. For example, I've gone up to a 400 XL in my Battlemaster, but also gone down to smaller engines as my performance and opponents shifted. In either case, I was trying to find the correct firepower/speed/efficiency balance for whatever I was trying to do.

It should be noted that this essential balance is required whether or not you're going for a "focused" build, or a "balanced" setup.

I just realized that I forgot to mention it... and as my Battlemaster to clearly demonstrated to me, it's VERY important...

[Void Angel]

Oh yeah! No matter what your view is on focusing or varying your weapons, you've always got to be mindful of how long you'll be able to sustain whatever it is you're doing. I don't often use that 400XL any more, because of the way the metagame is right now - I have and still would use it in certain 12-man setups, but that's a different story. But no matter what engine I'm using, I still always check the weapon lab in Smurfy's, and calculate how long I'm going to be able to sustain combat with the weapon types I'm bringing - just as I always ask myself "how many seconds of combat have I just purchased," when loading ammunition.

[Tesunie]

Such as my 6 med lasers on my Battlemaster. I get three alphas before shutdown... (for 16 DHS, you'd think it'd run cooler). I only use those when I have a good clean shot and they are up close (or I'm about to die anyway, so it doesn't matter).

Of course, as Koniving pointed out, med lasers run hotter than they should, and clan lasers seem to strangely run cooler than they should... Oh well.

(Another good example is my Battlemaster's LRM system. I only took 2 tons of ammo, as I don't expect it to last very long. I probably could change that to 1 ton of ammo and be fine for the most part.)

[Void Angel]

I found it helpful to chain fire the lasers in my 1G, particularly when tracking moving targets; it can help accuracy and allow finer control of your heat output.

[Tesunie]

Void Angel, on 14 July 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

I found it helpful to chain fire the lasers in my 1G, particularly when tracking moving targets; it can help accuracy and allow finer control of your heat output.

I do that with my stock Hunchback 4J... I have been debating if I should do so with my 6 med lasers on my 1G as well... I'll have to give it a try some time. My brother things that the sudden bursts are better, and continue to use my LL and UAC5 as cool down weapons is efficient enough...

[Void Angel]

It's situational - sometimes you need to slap them in the face (or the AC torso) all at once, other times, the chain fire will get you better damage on target and slightly better heat management. What I did was to bind that weapon group to when I click my mousewheel to the left - that Logitech G500 is some of the best money I've ever spent on hardware, even though it's too narrow for my big fat hands.

[Tesunie]

Well, by "chain fire" what I mean is I set it up for chain fire, and then quickly and rapidly hit the fire button till I've shot the desired number of lasers for that "alpha". This lets me control the heat produced without having a ton of different fire groups.

It's been working great for my 4J in stock matches so far.

[SethAbercromby]

Dropping by to share my Stalker loadouts.

Stalker 5S all range fire support: BAP with 2 LRM10s and 2 ERLLas for direct/indirect long range support, 2 pairs of MLas to melt armor at mid range and 2 Streaks so not even lights can escape. Performs very well in the second line but can move up to act as a spearhead 'Mech in the later stages of combat. Based on the canon/stock loadout of the 3F and thus pretty streamlined.

Misery short range face eater: LBX and ASRM6 shotgun armorbusting, combined with 4 Mlas chain fire to melt any leftover armor and a PPC to soften up targets at long range. A BAP for increased info gathering and to spot targets for the PPC. This build is so all over the place that it is both focused and balanced at the same time. It brawls like a madman, but can also pick its targets at any range. I love this beast.