70 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

The high-pinpoint alpha damage meta is ruining this game. It's not poptarting, it's not gauss, it's not PPCs or AC20s. It's the combination of them all and ghost heat isn't doing what it was supposed to do. This one hit kill is ruining this game for me and I have spent a lot of money on this game (not as much as some, but a moderate amount). I want to propose my ideas for a way to balance it.

Sized Hardpoints. Small and Large, keep it simple. Large can equip small weapons, but small cannot equip large.
Small Hardpoints: TAG, SL, ML, MG, AC2, AC5, NARC, SRM2, SRM4, LRM5, LRM10.
Large Hardpoints: LL, PPC, AC10, AC20, Gauss, SRM6, LRM15, LRM20.
The size of the variants hardpoints would simply be dictated by the OEM weapon equipped.

Max heat ceiling of 30 points.
Like in TT, the Dual PPC+Dual AC5 would generate 22 points of heat in one salvo. Add jump and/or movement heat + ambient heat is applicable and you got a risky maneuver pop-tarting.

Ghost heat tied to damage output instead of loadout.
Put that threshold at 20 points for everything except LRMs, put LRMs at 22 points (or put LRMs back to 20 where they are supposed to be). Every point of damage beyond that threshold generates X% extra heat. Could be 1%, could be 10%, testing is required.

I don't envy the task, but something needs to be done. I really hope you reconsider this because the meta is intolerable, it's not the way MechWarrior was meant to be. In lore, the alpha strike was meant as a last ditch hail Mary attack. I don't want to take that option away but I do want it gone as the primary attack method.

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Your feedback and suggestions are appreciated! However to better reach the developers with your ideas and suggestions, please post here: http://mwomercs.com/...al-discussions/ - please choose the appropriate sub-section. I know that you wanted to avoid the forums to avoid flaming, but unfortunately, the Support system is not a fast-track to the developers, and so the best place to reach the developers with your ideas is still the forums.

Please be aware that even though the devs do read the forums and especially the suggestions one, they rarely reply to any thread so they can concentrate on actually building the game. Also, the community representatives read all forum posts and compile then send to the devs the most relevant and constructive feedback on a weekly basis.
As one can imagine, if the devs start responding to everything, it would become a never-ending back and forth, and game development itself would suffer because of this.

I may check back to this topic once in a while, but I am not interested in responding to flaming. I know this won't sit well with lots of people, but I also know lots of people who feel the same way. I won't be getting into any flame wars either. I posted my thoughts and ideas, there's plenty of bytes on these forums for you to do the same.

[Relic1701]

We've been discussing something along these lines in the group I drop with, and we all think they will go a long way to bring back the 'flavour' of various mechs. But we were more along the lines of 'Small, Medium, Large, Huge'

• Small - Tag, Flamer, SL, SPL, MG, AC2, SRM2, SSRM2, LRM5, Narc
  
• Medium - ML, MPL, AC5, UAC5, SRM4, LRM10
  
• Large - LL, ERLL, LPL, AC10, LB10X, SRM6, LRM15
  
• Huge - PPC, ERPPC, Gauss Rifle, AC20, LRM20

If you want to be really picky you could add a 'Small Arms' hardpoint that can only mount SL, SPL, MG's & Flamers, you know the ones meant for anti infantry weapons.

All of a sudden the Awesome becomes, well awesome, being able to mount 3 PPC's, same with the K2. Having a look at some of the current chassis' and there hardpoints, adding sizes would do little to the majority of builds, but would stop a lot of the 'cheese' builds, and could even create more diversity, people would have to start thinking about their builds, even more so if there was a static heat cap.

[CDLord HHGD]

Relic1701, on 17 March 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

We've been discussing something along these lines in the group I drop with, and we all think they will go a long way to bring back the 'flavour' of various mechs. But we were more along the lines of 'Small, Medium, Large, Huge'

• Small - Tag, Flamer, SL, SPL, MG, AC2, SRM2, SSRM2, LRM5, Narc
  
• Medium - ML, MPL, AC5, UAC5, SRM4, LRM10
  
• Large - LL, ERLL, LPL, AC10, LB10X, SRM6, LRM15
  
• Huge - PPC, ERPPC, Gauss Rifle, AC20, LRM20

If you want to be really picky you could add a 'Small Arms' hardpoint that can only mount SL, SPL, MG's & Flamers, you know the ones meant for anti infantry weapons.


All of a sudden the Awesome becomes, well awesome, being able to mount 3 PPC's, same with the K2. Having a look at some of the current chassis' and there hardpoints, adding sizes would do little to the majority of builds, but would stop a lot of the 'cheese' builds, and could even create more diversity, people would have to start thinking about their builds, even more so if there was a static heat cap.

And the Awesome could have a quirk that bypasses the ghost heat mechanic because, well, it was designed to use 3 PPCs from the get-go.

It's nice to have the first response be supportive too, thank you!

[Relic1701]

Hard point sizes have been a subject of much discussion since early closed beta, and in the early stages, I understand why they didn't do it.

But with the new mechs and now the clan mechs, this system could have been easily adapted, so the clans could have had small, medium, large & huge Omni points.

Edited by Relic1701, 17 March 2014 - 12:06 PM.

[MagicM0E]

cdlord, on 17 March 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

And the Awesome could have a quirk that bypasses the ghost heat mechanic because, well, it was designed to use 3 PPCs from the get-go.

It's nice to have the first response be supportive too, thank you!

There wouldn't be a need for 'Ghost Heat' as no one could min/max like they do now. The Awesom would be one of the few (if not only) Mechs that could mount 3 PPC's.

Like Relic says, we've been discussing this more and more over the last few weeks. We know the subject has come up before (we're both closed beta players) but we think it would be a (relatively) simple fix for the 'one shot alpha' kill. It would obviously need a fair bit of tweaking to sort out the Mechs new weapons slots and the actually weapon sizes butwe feel it could be a real bonus to game play in general.

M0E

[Macksheen]

Tube size already effectively nerfs big-sized LRMs; any change to hardpoints I'd like to see be paired w/ the various tube-sizes - no sense making LRMs doubly bad.

[Khobai]

The problem with hardpoint sizes is that it requires too much balance fine tuning to make it work. And the chance of making certain mechs dominant while other mechs are never even used is too great.

A better solution IMO is to fix the offending weapons. Make PPCs do splash damage and ACs do burstfire. Now pinpoint damage doesnt exist on ANY mech.

[Coolant]

The high damage alpha in MWO is a joke compared to MW4:Mercs. It was common to see alphas of 80+ damage, and not uncommon to see 100+. Plus, Mercs didn't have double armor. If you are tired of 30+ alphas then not sure how much you would complain if you played Mercs. The difference in MWO is that there is no respawn. So 30+ alphas will bring you that much closer to death, well, being a spectator which isn't any fun. The real solution would be to bring a respawn game mode which I hope comes with the launch module....

Edited by Coolant, 17 March 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[Deathlike]

I don't mind a change of pace in the meta, but my personal idea is where Paul decides to make Pulse Lasers OP, so we can have the wubwub meta.

Alas, I don't see this happening soon.

[CDLord HHGD]

Macksheen, on 17 March 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:

Tube size already effectively nerfs big-sized LRMs; any change to hardpoints I'd like to see be paired w/ the various tube-sizes - no sense making LRMs doubly bad.

This is another discussion entirely and I see now the LRM20 does 22 damage.... However, I think there should be a mechanic that goes with max tubes... What they did to the CPLT-A1 notwithstanding. If the box has 20 ports, then 3 SRM6 is OK, 4xLRM5 is OK... Unless they implement the max damage to ghost heat threshold as I suggested above... Which was just a basic idea, much more fleshing out is needed by those with the numbers to tell....

Khobai, on 17 March 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

The problem with hardpoint sizes is that it requires too much balance fine tuning to make it work. And the chance of making certain mechs dominant while other mechs are never even used is too great.

A better solution IMO is to fix the offending weapons. Make PPCs do splash damage and ACs do burstfire. Now pinpoint damage doesnt exist on ANY mech.

Those are good suggestions too. One bonus to the sized hardpoints is it allows a small chassis that can equip a large weapon unique to the others... Hoping for a dev response since I followed the rules here.

[Relic1701]

Coolant, on 17 March 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

The high damage alpha in MWO is a joke compared to MW4:Mercs. It was common to see alphas of 80+ damage, and not uncommon to see 100+. Plus, Mercs didn't have double armor. If you are tired of 30+ alphas then not sure how much you would complain if you played Mercs. The difference in MWO is that there is no respawn. So 30+ alphas will bring you that much closer to death, well, being a spectator which isn't any fun. The real solution would be to bring a respawn game mode which I hope comes with the launch module....

The point is, the Aplha strike, was meant as a last resort, when all hope is lost, not, as now as a primary method of attack. Even with doubled armour, the time to kill is ridiculously fast, a hard point system and heat reduction would slow the pace down. People would still be able to alpha, just not as often, and with not as much force.

Imho, weapon balance at the moment is in a good place, but all the meta guys who start mounting multiples of 1 weapon, everything starts going out of whack.

Khobai, on 17 March 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

The problem with hardpoint sizes is that it requires too much balance fine tuning to make it work. And the chance of making certain mechs dominant while other mechs are never even used is too great.

A better solution IMO is to fix the offending weapons. Make PPCs do splash damage and ACs do burstfire. Now pinpoint damage doesnt exist on ANY mech.

They've been tweaking weapons for nearly 2 years, and everyone complains about it somewhere along the line, as stated above, individual balance is good, but the ability to customize with free reign is making everything too 'samey'

[Khobai]

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They've been tweaking weapons for nearly 2 years, and everyone complains about it somewhere along the line, as stated above, individual balance is good, but the ability to customize with free reign is making everything too 'samey'

I consider it two seperate issues though. Weapon balance and Mech balance should be addressed seperately IMO. First balance all the weapons. Then balance all the mechs.

[Relic1701]

The mechs could be balanced using this system, quite easily. It would also place them back into their original roles. I'll give you an example when I get a chance between games

Edited by Relic1701, 17 March 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[MagicM0E]

Khobai, on 17 March 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

I consider it two seperate issues though. Weapon balance and Mech balance should be addressed seperately IMO. First balance all the weapons. Then balance all the mechs.

Khobai, the weapons are in the best shape they've ever been. Granted, they're not perfect (my personal beef is the Gauss' mechanics) but they are close to where they need to be. What we need to do is something to change the current meta away from the min/max alpha strike. Something that will add a little more skill and a little more flavour. Ghost heat has got rid of the 4 (and holy mother of god the 6) PPC Stalker, but we still need to do more!

[Peter2k]

Khobai, on 17 March 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

The problem with hardpoint sizes is that it requires too much balance fine tuning to make it work. And the chance of making certain mechs dominant while other mechs are never even used is too great.

A better solution IMO is to fix the offending weapons. Make PPCs do splash damage and ACs do burstfire. Now pinpoint damage doesnt exist on ANY mech.

On the other hand you have mechs that are practically the same from a hardpoint and tonnage perspective
At some point there won't be any reason to take a new mech because you're old mastered mechs can do it too

Size restrictions for weapon slots have been discussed and thrown aside since closed Beta, repeatedly

Personally I don't know what's the fuss about it, just make it so, how could u unbalance the game going this way?
Afraid of 3 PPC's, well the awesome is the only one who can carry those, and he's as easy to hit as can be

And missile tubes?
Well I guess a narc slot (small slot) was never intended for a lrm 20
Also no one complains about tube sizes when a LRM 100 rain comes you're way, from 3 directions, it's like always, the excessive boating
Or how could a PPC fit into the same physical space of a small laser?
U can't put a PPC in a hunchies head, why, because of size restrictions(well technically no room alright, but think of a long PPC sticking out a hunchies head?), seems to work well enough

However I don't think this will be introduced after IS mechs kick clan mechs in they're butts realy hard and repeatedly, because clan mechs have so many restrictions, that for all intends and purposes they already have different sized slots (remember endo, heat sinks n stuff are fixed in place)
My boom-jager is going to love to hunt those incredibly slow clan lights, easy targets, can't change the engine

Edited by Peter2k, 17 March 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[Khobai]

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Khobai, the weapons are in the best shape they've ever been.

Theyre really not. PPCs/ACs are completely dominant. Lasers are mediocre. Non-streak missiles are terrible. Jumpjets are still overpowered.

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The mechs could be balanced using this system, quite easily

Players will always favor the mechs with hardpoints that let them use the best combination of weapons. Hardpoint sizes will just seperate good mechs from bad mechs even further. Which is why weapons need to be equalized before mechs can be balanced.

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On the other hand you have mechs that are practically the same from a hardpoint and tonnage perspective

Im not disagreeing. I'm just saying weapon balance should take priority. After weapons are balanced we can worry about adding role warfare, mech quirks, and unique skill trees for mechs. Differentiating mechs should certainly be one of PGI's long-term goals but I feel its less important than fixing the core mechanics like weapon balance.

Edited by Khobai, 17 March 2014 - 01:18 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Thanks everyone for keeping a constructive discussion going. I'm not master of the universe so what works for me may not for others so it's important to have these sensible discussions.

[Peter2k]

Taking a balanced loadout of short to long range weapons was probably the goal for BT, mechwarroir and PGI
One PPC is actually balanced, one AC20 is too, u got weight, size, heat, ammo concerns and short range, that's why it would be backed up by other weapons
Once u boat it, it becomes too deadly
All in all I liked the system in MW4 actually

However I do would also say that a more splash kind of damage would do this game good

There has also been another great idea in this subsection of putting ferro into the parts of a mech that you want it to sit there and improve armor in those locations

But mechs could still go down fast (compared to a balanced loadout) even with something like 80% splash damage from my dual AC20
Well at least people like me would actually reconsider taking xl engines in heavies and above

The only thing holding me back buying a madcat is worrying if it could hold its own against boats, cuz I see clan mechs just shredded everywhere because u can't change the loadout as freely (great omni mechs) as with IS Mechs

[Relic1701]

Peter2k, on 17 March 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

The only thing holding me back buying a madcat is worrying if it could hold its own against boats, cuz I see clan mechs just shredded everywhere because u can't change the loadout as freely (great omni mechs) as with IS Mechs

You've hit the nail on the head. We already have Omni mechs....

We need to have more restrictions now, so the Clans (true Omni's) can have a bit more free reign.

[Threat Doc]

Not having read everyone else's replies, not even being a BT purist, and generally not being in agreement with you on many things, I cannot disagree with anything concerning either ghost heat or varying sizes of hardpoints from your OP, cdlord.

I hope you're able to find luck with this.