84 replies to this topic

[Kaeb Odellas]

Nauht, on 18 March 2014 - 12:17 AM, said:

Because all we have is PGI's past history with weapon balancing and they've always swung it one way or the other.

I dunno why they're going the LRM buff now - they were in a good spot with few complaints from either side about them. This will only get more complaints from those that don't use them with LURMERS stating "they're fine" while grinning like a Cheshire cat. Then watch PGI swing the hammer the other way.

LRMs are definitely NOT in a good spot. The only ones who complain about LRMs are assault pilots who don't carry AMS and don't know how to use cover. They're only effective to just over half of their supposed effective range because they're so slow and easy to avoid, have a 1.5 ton stackable soft counter that almost every mech in the game can carry, and a much harder counter that is a no-brainer option for the mechs that can carry them.

Previous LRMocalypse events were caused by either changing their flight patch (which they are not), or some crazy thing with splash damage (which I understand has been mostly removed). Just wait until the patch tomorrow, and we'll know for sure.

EDIT: Not all of PGI's balance changes have been big game changers either. Pulse laser buffs have been pretty anemic, and the jump jet tweaks haven't done much to hurt the dominance of the poptart pinpoint builds.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 18 March 2014 - 12:44 AM.

[Kjudoon]

The reports of the LRMpocalypse are highly premature for 2 reasons.

1. AMS also got a buff in extended ranges so they can chew up more missiles with more overlapping fields.

2. The basic formula has not been changed. You still have to GET a lock, Fire. HOLD the lock, and hope that the pilot is not good enough or fast enough to get out of range or into cover.

This is why most LRMhaters who whine about how skilless LRMs are almost always incapable of playing with LRMs. It's a skill set and finesse they do not have and will not try to get.

Yes, NARC is awesome because it will tear up stupid ECM pilots or those who got careless IF they meet another mech who is packing it. This is not guaranteed because a NARC is still 5 tons and 4 slots (If you remember Ammo requirements) Not everyone's going to give up the space instead of a Large Laser.

This may be the end of the DDC because they're obvious NARCbait. The next on the list are going to be the Cicadas because they're easier to hit, then those flipping Spiders because they're so annoying. If you have LRM mechs close enough, sure, the smart ones will launch on that target. No brainer there. ECM stealth goes down, but it's not like a UAV popped off spotting everyone.

If, LRM speed got doubled to 240, that still means I have to hold lock for up to 5-6 seconds at max range to hit a target instead of 10ish. You can still lose lock, and in this scenario, it's unlikely you'll get it back and 'curveball' or 'snake' your missiles in for the hit in some crazy path in the sky.

The LRMpocalypse is not here, nor will it be coming unless a mistake is made in the programming.

Dial it back.
Breathe into this paper bag.
Have some Camomile tea.
Maybe a Lavender candle.
Calm down.

Or we can skip ahead to the Haldol and you can drool in the corner for a while till you're good and rested.

Edited by Kjudoon, 18 March 2014 - 12:48 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

I'm just hoping that LRMs will finally become a long range weapon like it's supposed to

[wanderer]

Quote

Or we can skip ahead to the Haldol and you can drool in the corner for a while till you're good and rested.

I prefer Hadlol. It's a more effective forum medication.

[Sprouticus]

Kjudoon, on 18 March 2014 - 12:45 AM, said:

The reports of the LRMpocalypse are highly premature for 2 reasons.

1. AMS also got a buff in extended ranges so they can chew up more missiles with more overlapping fields.

2. The basic formula has not been changed. You still have to GET a lock, Fire. HOLD the lock, and hope that the pilot is not good enough or fast enough to get out of range or into cover.

This is why most LRMhaters who whine about how skilless LRMs are almost always incapable of playing with LRMs. It's a skill set and finesse they do not have and will not try to get.

Yes, NARC is awesome because it will tear up stupid ECM pilots or those who got careless IF they meet another mech who is packing it. This is not guaranteed because a NARC is still 5 tons and 4 slots (If you remember Ammo requirements) Not everyone's going to give up the space instead of a Large Laser.

This may be the end of the DDC because they're obvious NARCbait. The next on the list are going to be the Cicadas because they're easier to hit, then those flipping Spiders because they're so annoying. If you have LRM mechs close enough, sure, the smart ones will launch on that target. No brainer there. ECM stealth goes down, but it's not like a UAV popped off spotting everyone.

If, LRM speed got doubled to 240, that still means I have to hold lock for up to 5-6 seconds at max range to hit a target instead of 10ish. You can still lose lock, and in this scenario, it's unlikely you'll get it back and 'curveball' or 'snake' your missiles in for the hit in some crazy path in the sky.

The LRMpocalypse is not here, nor will it be coming unless a mistake is made in the programming.

Dial it back.
Breathe into this paper bag.
Have some Camomile tea.
Maybe a Lavender candle.
Calm down.

Or we can skip ahead to the Haldol and you can drool in the corner for a while till you're good and rested.

You had me at Haldol...


Excellent points though.Missiles are one of the major weapons systems in BT. Right now we have 3/4 of 1 (out of a total of 3) that are useful. LRM's are very weak (they get more useful at lower Elo's). SRM's are terirble. Streaks are decent against lights. That's about it.


The reason people exagerate the impact (pun intended) of LRM's is this: There is a DELAY between when you become aware of the weapon and when it hits. As humans that gives us plenty of time to freak out. Direct fire weapons hit RIGHT away. You get hit, it is over. LRM's make you suffer. Thus people with poor reasoning skills feel that they are more powerful than they really are...

[Tuann]

woot ! hurrah ! :-)
now let's hope LRM's get their rightful place back on the battlefield . If fire support like LRM's get upgraded, it might help to lessen the domination of Peep+Ballistics Meta-builds and provide a viable alternative.
the concept of Battletech is to bring variety and tactics. Not just 1 style of play only.

[psihius]

Osric Lancaster, on 18 March 2014 - 12:21 AM, said:

^ ^ ^ A little more AMS ammo per ton would be nice. I'm running through two tons a match as it is, and that's with one AMS. If machine guns spat out ammo that fast they'd be apocalyptically powerful. I think balancing LRMS is a problem of numbers. One spotter for one indirect fire lock. That's all you'd need to do. Missiles are crap one-on-one. The speed buff on missiles itself is fine and was needed. This probably is the death of the D-DC though. Easy to NARC, slow as crap and huge as a house? Heh. Target practice.

This is because one of the trial mech's this week was an LRM stalker. Hence tons of LRM boats in matches (I once had like 5 of them)

[Roachbugg]

[Cimarb]

Kaeb Odellas, on 18 March 2014 - 12:39 AM, said:

the jump jet tweaks haven't done much to hurt the dominance of the poptart pinpoint builds.

That is because the issue isn't jump jets, but front-loaded damage. I still think the jump jet tweaks were good and needed, but if you only address the symptom, not the cause, you will never cure it.

[dario03]

Tuann, on 18 March 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

woot ! hurrah ! :-)
now let's hope LRM's get their rightful place back on the battlefield . If fire support like LRM's get upgraded, it might help to lessen the domination of Peep+Ballistics Meta-builds and provide a viable alternative.
the concept of Battletech is to bring variety and tactics. Not just 1 style of play only.

If anything it would have the opposite affect since trying to move into brawling range will get LRMs dropped on you by half the enemy team.

[ShinVector]

OMG.... Ever since the since the resurgence of LRMer which was probably to due champion Stalker... I had a bad feeling...
Now I know why.... OMG !!!

[tucsonspeed6]

Do you get a spotting assist on narc'd mechs even when you aren't targeting them? I'd be willing to try loading one on my CMD-1B if I knew it was a "fire and forget" type of weapon. Just to nail the closest assault on one of my straifing runs without having to hold a lock might be worth it.

[Savage Wolf]

I believe there's a special NARC XP reward actually

[Osric Lancaster]

psihius, on 18 March 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:

This is because one of the trial mech's this week was an LRM stalker. Hence tons of LRM boats in matches (I once had like 5 of them)

That doesn't really change things. I'm not saying LRMs didn't need the help, because as individual weapons they obviously did, and they *still* use too much ammo tonnage. That, and they're like. . . slow, indirect fire LBXs that like flying into terrain at ridiculous angles. However, as long as you let one spotter call missiles for any number of indirect fire platforms you're gonna have issues with LRM's fluctuating between 'minor annoyance' and 'fighting in the shade'. If, when indirectly fired, LRMs used a much looser formation, and a NARC or TAG worked by bringing in a certain number of missiles per second (say 60 every 3 seconds and 30 every 3 seconds respectively) in a 300m proximity directly to the TAG/NARC'd spot on the target. . . only then can LRMs be balanced as individual weapons. So sort of like a reverse AMS.

Also what the sweet merciful **** is wrong with PGI and balancing the wrong things all the time. Taking a dump all over the Victor's twist speed and arm movement? Do they literally not play their own game? Are their coders just too incompetent to do anything but these broad sweeping nerfs instead of dealing with the core issue of convergence? Shit, I'd be pissed if this wasn't so cute. Or if I'd bought a victor. Hehe. Sometimes I think PGI just hates assault 'Mechs.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 18 March 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[Amsro]

Guess its time to bring out the trollcat. LolrmHehe! streak time!

Edited by Amsro, 18 March 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Kjudoon]

LRMs are only 175m/s.

That drops max range time from 8.3 to 5.7 seconds. This officially cancels the LRMpocalypse. Whiners and QQers please exit the premise (that's right, premise). Those of us who love the LRM please stay for the drowning of our disappointments for not getting at least 200m/s

[dario03]

"Only" 175m/s? They were only 120m/s before. That is a really big jump for one patch and is combined with a double narc buff.

[Rhaythe]

Kiiyor, on 17 March 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

Heh.

Hmmm...

Actually..... Upon review, i've decided i'm only half joking. TO THE TRAINING GROUNDS.

I hope the pilot doesn't sneeze against the bulkhead.

[Osric Lancaster]

Kjudoon, on 18 March 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Whiners and QQers please exit the premise (that's right, premise). Those of us who love the LRM please stay for the drowning of our disappointments for not getting at least 200m/s.

False dichotomies like that are the reason why developers screw up balance. " AC/20's too good? Nerf! Missile too bad? Buff! Jump jet snipers OP? Nerf! Players don't like dropping in groups? Okay! We don't need to know why, as long as the metrics bear us out! " I'd like faster missiles too, but not without changing up the mechanics of spotting. Making numbers bigger or smaller is both the easiest, and least intelligent way to balance basically anything.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 18 March 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[DerMaulwurf]

Just a few things:

I don't think that AMS has been buffed. The rate with which it shoots down missiles doesn't seem to be changed. And even with the increased range it now has less time to shoot at incoming missiles. On the flipside overlap between different AMS equipped mechs is easier to achieve. But in total it's probably a side-grade at best.

I'm not that concerned about an LRM buff by principle. What gripes me more is that once again it is done by one big swing instead of incrementally. I know that sweeping changes is pretty much PGI's MO. But their track record with it isn't good and there are few reasons to believe it will get better.