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Someone Define "scouting" For Me, Please


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#1 Goose

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:07 AM

I get the impression real scouting is a point of derision in this game. :P

I see a metric-buttload of hunter-killer builds with nether Beagle nor TAG on them, and can only assume they are on TS3 with somebody, 'cause they don't often type in a map coordinates or anything useful. They also seem to only push the R key as often as the rest of the team, focusing in on everybody else' group-fire target, and tunnel-vision like that isn't very informative for us without LoS to the donnybrook. Add on the "stick with teh blob" meme that came about as the "counter" to ECM … :huh:

Is that it? Does anybody scout at all? If they do, are they willing to share how and when? Or is it something that might happen if, and only if, both Achievement- and cash-rewards get boosted by a factor of eight or so? ;)

#2 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:08 AM

I drive an Atlas... and I use my R key!

Ima Lyran scout!

#3 asdbnmrty

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:17 AM

Scouting above 120 kpm:
Load your Firestarter/Jenner with all the medium laser/small laser you can fit, running circles around the enemy while shooting. Exception Spider, Large Laser/ER large laser/pulse large laser ok.

Scouting below 120 kpm:
Load your raven/spider with all the ppc/ER PPC/large laser/ER Larger laser you can fit, hump a hill and shoot in the distance.

Scouting by calling out enemy locations/movements/loadouts.
Your efforts are in vien because your teammates in lights already blew them up.

Funny thing is, I'm not even joking.

Edited by asdbnmrty, 18 March 2014 - 10:20 AM.


#4 Shermburger

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:18 AM

Every once in a while I play with a friend who pilots a Raven and scouts for our little group of friends when we get together and play. Unfortunately, he has stopped playing regularly because scouting doesn't matter. The game is about heavy/assault deathball vs. heavy/assault deathball. Very rarely are flanking maneuvers rewarded.

#5 Warblood

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:18 AM

Quote

I drive an Atlas

Steiner scouts are the best!

Edited by Warblood, 18 March 2014 - 10:21 AM.


#6 zhajin

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:20 AM

in pugs there are usually no true scouts. the role is just a ******* child in mwo. even many 12 man teams will not bother with actual scouting.

#7 Rogue Jedi

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:22 AM

when piloting a light mech I view it as a priority to find and report the location of enemies (unless in conquest in which case capping takes priority), however as you get almost nothing for scouting I will generaly report position of the enemy then try to find and pick off a lone mech

#8 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:28 AM

View PostShermburger, on 18 March 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Every once in a while I play with a friend who pilots a Raven and scouts for our little group of friends when we get together and play. Unfortunately, he has stopped playing regularly because scouting doesn't matter. The game is about heavy/assault deathball vs. heavy/assault deathball. Very rarely are flanking maneuvers rewarded.

You do know scouting is to help your heavier allies find the enemy. It doesn't pay properly for the risk taken. But a good scout is worth the weight of his Heavy Missile boats he is guiding. I have suggested once r twice a Scout should get a % of damage done to a Mech he is spotting and a Bigger C-Bill pay out for putting his neck on the line.

#9 Nryrony

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:31 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 18 March 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

I drive an Atlas... and I use my R key!

Ima Lyran scout!


Scouting doesn't automatically mean "light". Lights don't have a specific advantage for "scouting" in this game - aside from speed.

A medium, especially with jjs roughly 80-110kph fast can "scout" just as well as any light.

Scouting in this games means spotting the enemy - giving your them the information where an enemy formation is and what its doing. You can achieve this via chat, TS, or by simply locking the target/targets (scouts usually hit R multiple times to indicate that there are more then 1 enemy's. )

If you are looking for someone that holds the TAG for you in a PUG game - good luck with that. (Why equipping a TAG for someone else receiving the XP, cash and fun while risking your skin in a PUG match...)

#10 AlmightyAeng

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:31 AM

When I do it for my lance, they appreciate it, and when others do it for me, it's nice.

Take a UAV. Find the main group. Drop it on them...dodge, dip, dive, duck and dodge!

Even if you aren't supporting LRMboats in your lance...usually SOMEONE has them...and just knowing whats there can encourage a push to force an 8 on 4 confrontation.

#11 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:32 AM

And done much better than I can by other players unfortunately. ;)

#12 Barkem Squirrel

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:38 AM

I think the locust is a great way to define this role. You are not there to fight, and better that you do not. You run just below the Intervisibility line (IV line) and pop up to take peeks depending on what you saw before. Move to an area and hide to shut down and report.

Alpine peeks, caustic, Tourmaline, and Terra Therma are about the best for a scouting role.

then skirmish mode may be the one that allows this. If you set up a defence and the other team is moving, sometimes you need eyes in other areas. If I take command, many times I want a light somewhere specific to watch and report.

Hitting the R button for all the mechs does get peoples attention, especially if you are doing it from behind.

The basic thing is, the larger the map, the better for scouting. If you know the location of the other team and their path of travel, many bad things can be set up for them. One example is on alpine in I9 with an LRM boat. One light found the other team circling below the cliffs. One other LRM boat came up beside me and one lance blocked the path around the hill and the other covered the return to where the base would have been. It turned into a turkey shoot, with LRM's taking out the most dangerous targets first. They never saw us moving to fix them in place and only me initially taking out the Jager. Then they were in a kill box from three sides and only one direction to go, in the open. This was all because of a light and chat in the game.

#13 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:41 AM

With the map sizes the way they are and the fact that if you turn towards the position of a large force you lag for a moment (thus indicating where they are), there is really no reason to scout.

Scouting being a necesscity would require a more dynamic gaming experience than we have currently.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 18 March 2014 - 10:44 AM.


#14 Davers

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:51 AM

Scouting; the art of running off alone and inevitably running into the enemy team. The scout then marks their position by leaving his limbs on the ground as markers and sending up smoke signals from his destroyed mech.

The team will know the scouting is complete when the scout reports they are all noobs who didn't support him and rage quits.

#15 Trauglodyte

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:52 AM

Scouting isn't really necessary in this game because, aside from Alpine Peaks, Tourmaline, and Terra Therma, every map is so small that you can see enemy movements from your starting area. The other three maps have the same boring "come here and let's fight" makeup because the devs and map creators didn't want us wandering around complaining about how we can't find anyone. Think of it like the vitriol that happened after a small map base cap rush - nobody likes that.

In it's purest form, Scouting is getting a bead on where the enemy is, where they're going, and what their troop makeup is. There was a NGNG podcast about 6-7 months ago where someone suggested that, when you target and identify someone (or when they die), the information would get transferred to the scoreboard thus allowing the team to know exactly what is out there. In addition, an XP and cbill reward would have been attached to it so this would have allowed extreme Light mechs to have a use beyond being fodder. The thing is, a Jenner can scout just as well as a Locust while bringing longer term survivability and offense. So, why take the mech built to Scout when you can take a scout killer and do the same job?



PS> As someone said, Scout doesn't necessarily mean Light mech. The Shadowhawk was a purposely built recon mech.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 18 March 2014 - 10:53 AM.


#16 Void Angel

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:52 AM

View PostGoose, on 18 March 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

I get the impression real scouting is a point of derision in this game. :P

I see a metric-buttload of hunter-killer builds with nether Beagle nor TAG on them, and can only assume they are on TS3 with somebody, 'cause they don't often type in a map coordinates or anything useful. They also seem to only push the R key as often as the rest of the team, focusing in on everybody else' group-fire target, and tunnel-vision like that isn't very informative for us without LoS to the donnybrook. Add on the "stick with teh blob" meme that came about as the "counter" to ECM … :huh:

Is that it? Does anybody scout at all? If they do, are they willing to share how and when? Or is it something that might happen if, and only if, both Achievement- and cash-rewards get boosted by a factor of eight or so? ;)

Well, people used to scout, and they will again. The problem is that right now, the rewards of that role aren't worth the risk and skill requirement to most people. It's all because of the Highlander... I shall explain:

When the Highlander came out, Poptarting really came into its own. Finally, there was an Assault chassis with jump jets, and with a pinpoint alpha that could smash almost half of an Atlas' forward center torso, it quickly became the dominant Assault 'mech - particularly in competitive play. The Assault-class firepower and tonnage really made the difference - and the PPC Poptart meta was born. The balance issue was clear, but PGI wanted to preserve the poptart playstyle without allowing it to completely dominate the game. So they started adding various changes and nerfs - jump jet shake, Gauss charging, nerfing the PPC back down to sanity - in an attempt to preserve the poptart playstyle while freeing up the meta. They succeeded, ion fact, but the way the meta expanded created problems of its own (this is typically the case with balance changes in any game, and why balance is an ongoing process.)

The nerfs to poptarting, along with the release of newer 'Mech designs, made dakka much more obviously valuable. Since poptarting was harder, and not quite so damaging, many people switched to long-range autocannon builds focusing on suppression fire. Since sniper/dakkas don't like (or often need) to close, and poptarts don't like to be out in the open, this caused the engagement range to remain open for longer, leading to the resurgence of LRM boats in the hands of the mathematically challenged. And all of these builds range from annoying to outright murder for any light attempting to scout the enemy, depending on enemy marksmanship and the exigencies of war. Lights were starting to decline at this point - both in the literal sense of not being played, and in the awful pun sense of "declining" to leave the group to scout. I had ECM lights seriously tell me that they were "ECM support," and that I shouldn't ask them to go 500m away to look for the enemy before we got ambused. I was in an Atlas D-DC on one of these occasions.

Enter the Firestarter - specifically, the Ember. This 'mech is far and away the most overall powerful light right now, particularly for backstabbing and wolfpacking larger 'mechs. It has good hit boxes, a huge number of hardpoints, jump jets and real arms for dogfighting. Unlike the Jenner, whose CT is a giant damage magnet, the Firestarter spreads damage readily, and while this does result in losing an arm more often, that just makes most builds more heat efficient. Its release made several other Light chassis variants completely obsolete, and completely changed the way many lights view their role on the battlefield.

Because the Firestarter is ideally suited for coring out big, slow 'Mechs from behind, many light pilots drop with the goal of doing that - and only that. Since a pack of Firestarters can quickly decimate most other lights, solo dropping Light pilots have taken to avoiding the enemy's main body whenever possible, opting for ER Large Lasers and PPCs instead of traditional close-range armament, or simply hanging back with the main body to try and backstab themselves. With so many people focusing on long-range sniping and backstabbing (at the expense of their heavier teammates, who typically suffer more from lack of intel,) very few lights feel that the trouble and danger of scouting is worth the rewards.

#17 Fyrwulf

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:54 AM

Well, there are a few different types of scouting. You have scouts whose job it is to be far forward of the main body to find the enemy and report back so that the heavy hitters can engage them, you have scouts whose job it is to operate on the flanks of the main body and delay any flanking attacks by the enemy so that the main body can reposition to meet the enemy heady on, and you have several other specialized scout units whose jobs have no relevance to MWO (FIST is basically DOA in MWO).

And yeah, typically light pilots don't operate as scouts. I call them Napoleons because they seem to hate heavies and assaults, and who exist only to ruin the game for dedicated assault pilots. What I think it boils down to is that they're not skilled enough to successfully pilot assaults, ever, and they resent the fact that their speed shield doesn't work when assaults coordinate properly.

But, you have the rare pilots who actually seem to enjoy the scouting role that their light mechs are designed for. Those people are priceless gems that should be treasured as such.

#18 Bagheera

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:59 AM

Scouting: something that doesn't exist in the game.

No, looking over the ridge to confirm the enemy is where you expected them to be is not scouting.

#19 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:07 AM

View PostBagheera, on 18 March 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

Scouting: something that doesn't exist in the game. No, looking over the ridge to confirm the enemy is where you expected them to be is not scouting.


I do love how people try to make other things into scouting.

Spotting is not scouting. Flanking is not scouting. etc. etc.

Scouting is a non-part of this game.

#20 Trauglodyte

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 11:15 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 18 March 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:


I do love how people try to make other things into scouting.

Spotting is not scouting. Flanking is not scouting. etc. etc.

Scouting is a non-part of this game.


I used to scout. Some teams actually liked that I typed out location, direction, and a mix. But, the bulk of the PUGgers these days are f2p Rambo morons that don't know their heads from their asses let alone the impact of good intel. Why bother?





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