245 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Almighty Cico, on 19 March 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

LOL, yeah balance.

Yeah... Balance.

Now we can kill each other with LRMs almost as well as with Pop Tarts. Balance. Its a game where we are trying to kill each other, not have pillow fights.

[Sephlock]

Appogee, on 20 March 2014 - 03:12 AM, said:

Really? I don't remember any mention of these during the interviews?

Should have read the fine print. We'll do our jobs, you do yours.

[Appogee]

Adran, on 20 March 2014 - 03:14 AM, said:

... If no one missile-boated, then you might as well remove the weapons from the game,

Let's apply that logic to other weapons.

"If noone boated PPCs you might as well remove those weapons from the game". Nope, not true.
"If noone boated lasers you might as well remove those weapons from the game". Nope, not true.
"If noone boated ACs you might as well remove those weapons from the game". Nope, not true.

In fact, anti-boating measures were applied directly to PPCs and lasers (ghost heat) specifically to stop people boating them. Paul says he is now looking at reducing the effectiveness of ACs, too.

So why should LRMs be a penalty-free way to boat?

Personally, I think diverse loadouts are - and should be - the best way to be effective.

El Bandito, on 20 March 2014 - 03:37 AM, said:

You can't fire a 50+ volley more than 3 times before you shut down.

"Only" 180 points of potential damage - in three 60 point salvos - all guiding themselves to your target - before you have to stop firing for a while...?!

My heart goes out to you.

Sephlock, on 20 March 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:

Should have read the fine print. We'll do our jobs, you do yours.

Well, I want a raise. I never signed up to be responsible for other people's min/maxed Mech loadouts!

Edited by Appogee, 20 March 2014 - 04:05 AM.

[El Bandito]

Appogee, on 20 March 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

In fact, anti-boating measures were applied directly to PPCs and lasers (ghost heat) specifically to stop people boating them. Paul says he is now looking at reducing the effectiveness of ACs, too.

So why should LRMs be a penalty-free way to boat?

Why are you so uninformed? LRMs are also affected by ghost heat.

Matter of fact, LRM penalties are also linked. You will still get ghost heat even if you fire 2 LRM10s and 2 LRM15s together, even though the limit for them is 2 each. Just like how LLaser+ERLLaser/PPC+ERPPC linking penalty works.
Only LRM that is not affected by ghost heat is the LRM5. But if you boat LRM5s, you will not get that 50+ volley you complained about.

Chain firing those LRM50 will avoid ghost heat but that makes AMS very effective against them.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 March 2014 - 05:19 AM.

[Lootee]

Meh. I support the LRM buff. In fact I think every month they should randomly choose a weapon and make it the shiZzle.

It beats the alternative => 6+ month periods of stagnant BORING gameplay. After 7 months of brokenass ECM Ravens with streaks + no HSR and over a year of poptardedness. I'll take the change no matter what it is at this point. At least it will shake things up a bit.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 20 March 2014 - 06:03 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

El Bandito, on 20 March 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

Why are you so uninformed? LRMs are also affected by ghost heat.

Matter of fact, LRM penalties are also linked. You will still get ghost heat even if you fire 2 LRM10s and 2 LRM15s together, even though the limit for them is 2 each. Just like how LLaser+ERLLaser/PPC+ERPPC linking penalty works.
Only LRM that is not affected by ghost heat is the LRM5. But if you boat LRM5s, you will not get that 50+ volley you complained about.

Chain firing those LRM50 will avoid ghost heat but that makes AMS very effective against them.

Don't waste your time, Appogee proves time and time again he has real issues with understanding this game.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

It's amazing how many sub 200 post terribads have come out of the wood works for this.

Where were you guys when we had the poptart meta killing this game for a year?

Hypocrites.

[Joseph Mallan]

Appogee, on 20 March 2014 - 03:53 AM, said:

So why should LRMs be a penalty-free way to boat?

maybe because a Less than 50% hit percentage for the average LRM?

[Appogee]

El Bandito, on 20 March 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

Why are you so uninformed? LRMs are also affected by ghost heat.

Not uninformed. Just posted on this matter in another thread, actually.

Someone there was complaining they could "only" fire 3 salvos of LRM50 before they shut down due to heat. That's 165 points of potential damage before needing to pause firing.

You decide whether that's really "being penalised" by ghost heat, vs say how many 10 point PPCs someone can fire before overheating, or how many 9pt ERLs etc. Then we can be informed together.

El Bandito, on 20 March 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

Matter of fact, LRM penalties are also linked.

Once again, thank you Wikiman, but I knew that. But what's your point? The issue is how much damage can be done before a firing limitation due to ghost heat occurs.

Ie how many points of potential PPC damage can be fired before the weapon causes an overheat, vs how many points of LRM damage can be fired before the weapon causes an overheat?

El Bandito, on 20 March 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

Only LRM that is not affected by ghost heat is the LRM5. But if you boat LRM5s, you will not get that 50+ volley you complained about.

No. Instead you get the opportunity to flood an enemy with endless cockpit shake, effectively an exploit, because cockpit shake isn't proportional to the number of missiles hitting.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 March 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

Don't waste your time, Appogee proves time and time again he has real issues with understanding this game.

Nicholas is unable to argue logically, therefore, he resorts to ad hominem attacks. He thinks that, by claiming people with alternative views "don't understand" - even when those views are supported with facts and logic - he somehow counters those views. Sad, really.

(Yes, yes, I know that was an ad hominem attack too. But really, when someone's entire contribution to an otherwise factual discussion is to say "don't listen to the guy who doesn't agree with me"...)

Joseph Mallan, on 20 March 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

maybe because a Less than 50% hit percentage for the average LRM?

This may actually a reasonable point. But what is ''average'' in this context? Is it the informed LRM boat making use of TAG or NARC, Artemis and Target Decay and holding locks? Or is it the uninformed PUG standing at the back of the map spamming blindly at remote locked targets? It would be interesting to know the hit percentage of an experienced LRM user, who is playing the weapon system correctly.

Also, if we're going to start discounting ''hit percentages" then we also need to do that for other weapons in this comparison. For example, my ERPPC hit rate is currently only 60% (!) Too many speculative shots at Lights running circles around me, probably. But let's have a fair and factual comparison, rather than claim LRMs are some special case where different rules need to be applied.

Edited by Appogee, 20 March 2014 - 06:45 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Appogee, on 20 March 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

Nicholas is unable to argue logically, therefore, he resorts to ad hominem attacks.

It's sad.

Just have limited patience for people like you. Sorry, El Bandito has done a fine job making you look dumb anyway. Didn't need my help.

[Roland]

El Bandito, on 20 March 2014 - 05:14 AM, said:

Why are you so uninformed? LRMs are also affected by ghost heat.

But Ghost Heat doesn't actually matter with LRM's, because chainfiring them doesn't actually hinder your accuracy with them, as it would with weapon you are actually aiming.

If you are getting hurt by Ghost heat with LRM's, it means you are an imbecile.

[Voivode]

LOL at the whiners in this thread.

1) AMS exists. Use it.

2) Cover exists, use it.

3) LRMs are ineffective under 180m. Get in a *GASP* medium brawler/striker and lay into them.

I know, I know. Adapting is hard. Complaining is easy. Carry on,

Edited by Voivode, 20 March 2014 - 07:01 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 20 March 2014 - 06:35 AM, said:

But Ghost Heat doesn't actually matter with LRM's, because chainfiring them doesn't actually hinder your accuracy with them, as it would with weapon you are actually aiming.

If you are getting hurt by Ghost heat with LRM's, it means you are an imbecile.

You are neglecting some things with that post, which is weird coming from you Roland.

Chain firing increases the chance that you are going to drop lock on the target, or they will have time to find cover and not get hit by subsequent volley's.

Also AMS is MUCH more effective against chain fired LRM's. Especially in groups of AMS.

Chain firing is definitely not the best way to go depending on a variety of situations.

Ghost heat is a definitely concern for heavy LRM use.

EDIT: Btw Apooogeee or however you spell it, this is how I respond to people who deserve it.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 20 March 2014 - 06:53 AM.

[Appogee]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 March 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:

Just have limited patience for people like you. Sorry,

"People like me"...? You mean, people who challenge your views, and who propose logical arguments in response to your unrelenting promotion of LRMs...?

Yes, you demonstrably do have limited patience with people who don't agree with you.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 20 March 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:

El Bandito has done a fine job making you look dumb anyway. Didn't need my help.

I'm happy to be judged by others on the merits of the facts, logic and arguments I put forward. Your confirmation bias and cheerleading for others who agree with you won't change the facts of the matter.

--

I note you still haven't made any effort at all to rebut the facts and valid points about relativity of when the ghost heat penalty occurs for LRM vs other weapon systems. Just more posts attacking me and other people who have the temerity to disagree with your world view.

I take it you have no actual valid counter argument.

Edited by Appogee, 20 March 2014 - 06:57 AM.

[Krazok]

Eldagore, on 19 March 2014 - 08:28 PM, said:

LOL.Wait, LRM were/are good at flushing out poptarts? have you ever played a poptart or watched one even? Effective LRM CREATED poptarts. They are the one weapon that can not counter a jumpsniper, because you cant lock them till they jump, and you cant shoot missles through the rock they are behind when they land. So when LRM work well, and everyone starts camping behind cover, guess which playstyle starts to make a monstrous comeback? Well, that and MEGA ALPHA STRIKE brawl loadouts, because every match turns into hide for several minutes up to half the match >go through tunnel or wait till enemy tries to get you while your LRM boats make them do the same>MEGA FACE SMASH FOR 2 MINUTES. Exit match.

But what do I know, I am just a n00b and should L2P.

That depends heavily on the cover the poptart uses. If he is just standing behind the ridge and poptarting there (for example Frozen City or Crimson Strait) the LRMs will hit him anyway. Also, there a new tactical options available to counter that game style. 1. Narc got a buff as well. The poptart with a narc is going to have a bad time. 2. You can use artillery strikes to a nice effect against the poptart playstyle.
Mega Alpha Brawl is much more fun than standing 1.5 km away from the opponent and sniper each other.
Hide for several minutes and maneuver into a good position. So you are telling me that you have to use maneuvering/tactics to win a game? Isn't that what the game was designed for?
There are a lot more people using LRMs right now to try them out, in a week or so it will be back to normal except for that the game is a lot more strategic now.

Edited by Krazok, 20 March 2014 - 06:57 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

So, learn to play, drop the no-skill spam weapons, and practice aiming before you dump on players who use weapons that actually require a little bit of actual developed thought and reflex.

Every time someone lobbing LRMs kills you, remember that it took him roughly 4 times the "no-skill" shots to match the "skill" shot you managed when you planted an AC/PPC snapshot into him.

100 damage to one location > 100 damage to 2-3 locations >>> 100 damage spread across the 'Mech.

Stop whining about being bludgeoned to death when you've got an armor-piercing weapon set that can peel a core in the time it takes LRM guy to turn your armor a pretty shade of orange.

Quote

Mechwarrior Online was probably as skill based as you could get in today's online playing field.

"I has big rock. Rock is best. No paper! Paper come. People say bring scissors, but rock is best. Will die with biggest rock, winning!"

You're sounding more mad about something else being able to be a threat instead of "point dakka at target, core, repeat" that was the "skill" pre-patch.

[Sybreed]

I support the LRM buff, but I think the number of LRMs a single mech can fire be restricted so a single LRM launcher is viable and dual launchers (or triple in rare cases) be great but not OP.

Kill LRM boating, buff LRMs dmg a little.

[Voivode]

Honestly, one of the biggest parts of issues people are having with LRMs have to do with the fact that they were JUST buffed, so lots of people have wanted to try them out. Give it a little while. We're supposedly going to have a patch soon that addresses hit detection issues with SRMs. That should knock the enthusiasm out of some LRM boaters.

LRM speed buff should stay.

[wanderer]

Quote

However, if I do get a say in what you drop in... please bring some heavy hitting direct fire weapons as well as your LRMs, so that you can contribute to the fight for the first 8 minutes AND defend yourself more capably.

So basically, you're saying that LRM boats are inferior in the first place now to your "heavy hitting direct fire weapons" (that since LRM boats dedicate immense tonnage to being functional really can't handle) anyway?

Why are they rustling your jimmies so much, then? If LRMs are inferior, people who take them are just easier kills. If they're actually a threat, then you're better off having both- he keeps their heads down, you go tear said heads off.

[Szegedin]

Appogee, on 20 March 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

[/b]Not uninformed. Just posted on this in another thread actually.

Someone there was complaining they could "only" fire 3 salvos of LRM50 before they shut down due to heat. That's actually 165 points of potential damage before needing to pause firing.

You decide whether that's really "being penalised" by ghost heat, vs say how many 10 point PPCs someone can fire before overheating, or how many 9pt ERLs etc.

Then we can be informed together.

Holy mackerel, I don't even.....what relevance is the 'potential' damage of the LRM cloud when not all of them are going to hit, and the ones that do splatter themselves all over the target.

On a side note, anyone who overheats using LRM's is an idiot, but the weapon system is already so fundamentally penalized in its ability to deliver its damage payload the last thing it needs are more heat penalties.

Appogee, on 20 March 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

Once again, thank you Wikiman, but I knew that. But what's your point? The issue is how much damage can be done before a firing limitation due to ghost heat occurs.

Ie how many points of potential PPC damage can be fired before the weapon causes an overheat, vs how many points of LRM damage can be fired before the weapon causes an overheat?

Here's the thing, you can be doing everything right in a LRM machine, but you're still only maximizing the probability that your weapons are going to do damage, part of the equation is always out of your hands.

If you're doing everything right with a PPC, you're hitting your target and dealing direct damage to individual components, and its direct damage that kills and disables mechs the fastest.

Appogee, on 20 March 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

Nicholas is unable to argue logically, therefore, he resorts to ad hominem attacks. He thinks that, by claiming people with alternative views "don't understand" - even when those views are supported with facts and logic - he somehow counters those views. Sad, really.

Well the problem with your posts on this subject Appogee is that you're dragging out a few facts, like weapon damage numbers but applying little logic in how those numbers are represented in the field.

I'm baffled how one could compare a frontloaded weapon like a PPC to an LRM salvo...

Appogee, on 20 March 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

This may actually a reasonable point. But what is ''average'' in this context? Is it the informed LRM boat making use of TAG or NARC, Artemis and Target Decay and holding locks? Or is it the uninformed PUG standing at the back of the map spamming blindly at remote locked targets? It would be interesting to know the hit percentage of an experienced LRM user, who is playing the weapon system intelligently.

My one LRM boat that I drag into PUGs is a C4. I use Target Decay and Sensor Range, JJ's a fast XL, Artemis and pack my own TAG as I prefer firing at targets I can actually see.

Pre buff my LRM15 accuracy was 40.86% - Post buff its 43.95% I don't see any revolution in the weapon system, just a nudge to make it work.

Do you run any LRM machines Appogee?