34 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

I see 3 critical changes that need to happen if brawling is going to be a thing again.

1st: Slow down the RoF of long range weapons. (That's how most games I've played balance between short and long range weapons.)
PPCs/ERPPCs to 6-7 (and remove the 90m all or nothing.. bring it back to scaling damage)
Gauss to 7-8 (and remove that blasted charge-up..)
LL/ERLL to 6-7
LRMs to 5-6

This allows them to be used at long range, but not as destructively, and gives brawlers the upper hand on arrival to close range.

2nd: Reduce the over-range of ballistics down to 2x from 3x.
Gauss down to 1320 from 1980.
AC20 down to 540 from 810.
AC10 down
UAC5 down
AC5 down
AC2 down
etc..

This balances ballistics against each other, and against lasers and missiles. (Currently the AC20 does more damage than the AC10, at the AC10s max optimal range.)

3rd: Increase missile spread of boated LRMs.
Every 5 tubes above 40 (two LRM 20s) earns a 30% increase in initial spread.
45 tubes = 130% of spread
50 tubes = 160% of spread
55 tubes = 190% of spread
60 tubes = 220% of spread
65 tubes = 250% of spread
70 tubes = 280% of spread.

If you want to bring your own artillery turret.. you get artillery accuracy.
(Lore reason: Guidance systems overload.)


That wouldn't fix all the problems, but I think it would make a big dent in the mass casualties of bring a brawler. (as a result of balancing long range weapons..)

[Kaldor]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

I see 3 critical changes that need to happen if brawling is going to be a thing again.

1st: Slow down the RoF of long range weapons. (That's how most games I've played balance between short and long range weapons.)
PPCs/ERPPCs to 6-7 (and remove the 90m all or nothing.. bring it back to scaling damage)
Gauss to 7-8 (and remove that blasted charge-up..)
LL/ERLL to 6-7
LRMs to 5-6

This allows them to be used at long range, but not as destructively, and gives brawlers the upper hand on arrival to close range.

2-3 seconds is a bit excessive. I could see 1 second. 1 second in a brawl is a lifetime.

Livewyr, on 20 March 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

2nd: Reduce the over-range of ballistics down to 2x from 3x.
Gauss down to 1320 from 1980.
AC20 down to 540 from 810.
AC10 down
UAC5 down
AC5 down
AC2 down
etc..

This balances ballistics against each other, and against lasers and missiles. (Currently the AC20 does more damage than the AC10, at the AC10s max optimal range.)

I agree with this 100%

Livewyr, on 20 March 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

3rd: Increase missile spread of boated LRMs.
Every 5 tubes above 40 (two LRM 20s) earns a 30% increase in initial spread.
45 tubes = 130% of spread
50 tubes = 160% of spread
55 tubes = 190% of spread
60 tubes = 220% of spread
65 tubes = 250% of spread
70 tubes = 280% of spread.

If you want to bring your own artillery turret.. you get artillery accuracy.
(Lore reason: Guidance systems overload.)

Meh, nothing really wrong with LRMs. Those high end boats are usually pretty squishy and they are running pretty hot. If your really hot on the idea, reduce that number by about 2/3, but make Artemis directly offset it. Not too mention there is only one LRM boat right now that can get 60 missiles in the air at once, Awesome 8R, and you really have to gimp yourself. A Stalker 3H can get get 52 out at once, but I think it has some issues that PGI never addressed with the missile ports. And Ghost Heat and stuff....

Livewyr, on 20 March 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

That wouldn't fix all the problems, but I think it would make a big dent in the mass casualties of bring a brawler. (as a result of balancing long range weapons..)

Or they could fix the heat system so that once a brawler does get there (yes it can be done) they are not limited to 3-4 shots and then they lose almost all effectiveness as they cant cool enough to keep DPS up to kill something with bread and butter brawling weapons like large caliber ACs (OK), SRMs (inconsistent hit reg, piss poor damage) and lasers (too hot) and then quickly get focused down.

[Damocles69]

Ya. No reason for ballistics to have x3 range.

They could also, you know, FIX SRMs

[xCico]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

I see 3 critical changes that need to happen if brawling is going to be a thing again.

1st: Slow down the RoF of long range weapons. (That's how most games I've played balance between short and long range weapons.)
PPCs/ERPPCs to 6-7 (and remove the 90m all or nothing.. bring it back to scaling damage)
Gauss to 7-8 (and remove that blasted charge-up..)
LL/ERLL to 6-7
LRMs to 5-6

This allows them to be used at long range, but not as destructively, and gives brawlers the upper hand on arrival to close range.

2nd: Reduce the over-range of ballistics down to 2x from 3x.
Gauss down to 1320 from 1980.
AC20 down to 540 from 810.
AC10 down
UAC5 down
AC5 down
AC2 down
etc..

This balances ballistics against each other, and against lasers and missiles. (Currently the AC20 does more damage than the AC10, at the AC10s max optimal range.)

3rd: Increase missile spread of boated LRMs.
Every 5 tubes above 40 (two LRM 20s) earns a 30% increase in initial spread.
45 tubes = 130% of spread
50 tubes = 160% of spread
55 tubes = 190% of spread
60 tubes = 220% of spread
65 tubes = 250% of spread
70 tubes = 280% of spread.

If you want to bring your own artillery turret.. you get artillery accuracy.
(Lore reason: Guidance systems overload.)


That wouldn't fix all the problems, but I think it would make a big dent in the mass casualties of bring a brawler. (as a result of balancing long range weapons..)

I love it, but wait those LRM noobs when they start comment...

[Varent]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

I see 3 critical changes that need to happen if brawling is going to be a thing again.

1st: Slow down the RoF of long range weapons. (That's how most games I've played balance between short and long range weapons.)
PPCs/ERPPCs to 6-7 (and remove the 90m all or nothing.. bring it back to scaling damage)
Gauss to 7-8 (and remove that blasted charge-up..)
LL/ERLL to 6-7
LRMs to 5-6

This allows them to be used at long range, but not as destructively, and gives brawlers the upper hand on arrival to close range.

2nd: Reduce the over-range of ballistics down to 2x from 3x.
Gauss down to 1320 from 1980.
AC20 down to 540 from 810.
AC10 down
UAC5 down
AC5 down
AC2 down
etc..

This balances ballistics against each other, and against lasers and missiles. (Currently the AC20 does more damage than the AC10, at the AC10s max optimal range.)

3rd: Increase missile spread of boated LRMs.
Every 5 tubes above 40 (two LRM 20s) earns a 30% increase in initial spread.
45 tubes = 130% of spread
50 tubes = 160% of spread
55 tubes = 190% of spread
60 tubes = 220% of spread
65 tubes = 250% of spread
70 tubes = 280% of spread.

If you want to bring your own artillery turret.. you get artillery accuracy.
(Lore reason: Guidance systems overload.)


That wouldn't fix all the problems, but I think it would make a big dent in the mass casualties of bring a brawler. (as a result of balancing long range weapons..)

I like it. Though I wouldnt half the range on ballistics. I would go 2.5 range instead of 3. And Id also up the range of energy to 2.5 so its more balanced between the two.

The extra cooldown will make the strong variation between weapons made for long range and those made for short and will bring srm back into more prevalence and distinguish them as a brawling weapon with a short cd.

Damocles69, on 20 March 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

Ya. No reason for ballistics to have x3 range.

They could also, you know, FIX SRMs

the reason for the range is bullet drop. that said x3 is excessive, 2.5 is abit better

[Sybreed]

Varent, on 20 March 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

I like it. Though I wouldnt half the range on ballistics. I would go 2.5 range instead of 3. And Id also up the range of energy to 2.5 so its more balanced between the two.

The extra cooldown will make the strong variation between weapons made for long range and those made for short and will bring srm back into more prevalence and distinguish them as a brawling weapon with a short cd.



the reason for the range is bullet drop. that said x3 is excessive, 2.5 is abit better

this is something we've suggested for so long... I hope Paul reads this one. That's how other games balance their weapons and it works FINE.

The Gauss charge... omfg...

[Joseph Mallan]

Sybreed, on 20 March 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

this is something we've suggested for so long... I hope Paul reads this one. That's how other games balance their weapons and it works FINE.

The Gauss charge... omfg...

Yeah less range for ACs I support as well. I like my Uber Range now, but dont need it.

[Damocles69]

I really think that at 2.5 damage a missile, without the broken splash mechanic SRMs will be in no way OP. However, they would allow brawlers a way to ratchet up thier firepower cost effectively in terms of tonnage. There needs to be a reason for mech to want to close on the snipers. Allowing them to out alpha the long range builds up close would be that incentive

[Varent]

Sybreed, on 20 March 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

this is something we've suggested for so long... I hope Paul reads this one. That's how other games balance their weapons and it works FINE.

The Gauss charge... omfg...

the gause would need a really long CD to make it more viable if you take away the charge, keep that in mind.

[Joseph Mallan]

I am actually Ok with the Charge, even if I can't get the timing right in the thick of it. It was a good answer to the Minimum Range in my eyes.

[Sybreed]

Varent, on 20 March 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

the gause would need a really long CD to make it more viable if you take away the charge, keep that in mind.

I would take that over the charge mechanic anyday.

I've been trying to make the Gauss rifle work in a 5 weapon groups mech and it's just too clumsy to be viable. Once I get back home, I'll take it off and put an AC/10 or 2 AC/5s. I don't know how many times a mech peaked how of a corner, PPCed my ass and hid back before my Gauss charge was up. I couldn't even retaliate.

[DEN_Ninja]

Tune the numbers on the spread and you've got me hooked. I agree the boats can do some impressive things with their mechs and there should be some form of repercussions for bringing more LRM launchers than tubes.

Some of the traditional boats will suffer from those kinds of extremes and make them in effective. That really is just the numbers game though.

[Sybreed]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 March 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

I am actually Ok with the Charge, even if I can't get the timing right in the thick of it. It was a good answer to the Minimum Range in my eyes.

is Gauss supposed to have a minimum range? That's something I didn't know.

Still, like you I can't get the timing right during a brawl. Plus, the zoom module doesn't reduce mouse sensibility so it's hard to get a good shot with the Gauss charged up. One little move and my aim is all over the place

[Joseph Mallan]

Guass Minimum on TT was 60m or 2 Hex... Never made sense for a ballistic. But a charging delay... I can see that as logical.

But not if its a Sniper Weapon.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 March 2014 - 07:29 AM.

[Sybreed]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 March 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

Guass Minimum on TT was 60m or 2 Hex... Never made sense for a ballistic. But a charging delay... I can see that as logical.

But not if its a Sniper Weapon.

yeah, makes no sense for a weapon like the Gauss. It'd make more sense with shells like ACs, because some types of shell require a minimum range to explode on impact (like grenade launchers?) But still, ACs are not grenade launchers.

In any case, if PGI really wants to keep their charge mechanic, I'd rather have it increase the dmg from 1 to 15 as you hold it, but if you release it too soon, it won't deal the full 15 dmg. At least you can fire in twitch scenarios.

[Artgathan]

Livewyr, on 20 March 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

3rd: Increase missile spread of boated LRMs.
Every 5 tubes above 40 (two LRM 20s) earns a 30% increase in initial spread.
45 tubes = 130% of spread
50 tubes = 160% of spread
55 tubes = 190% of spread
60 tubes = 220% of spread
65 tubes = 250% of spread
70 tubes = 280% of spread.

If you want to bring your own artillery turret.. you get artillery accuracy.
(Lore reason: Guidance systems overload.)


That wouldn't fix all the problems, but I think it would make a big dent in the mass casualties of bring a brawler. (as a result of balancing long range weapons..)

I don't think I'm on board with your LRM proposal (the rest of it looks good). The problem is that the way I'm understanding the LRM system encourages chain firing, which annoys the hell out of me (when I'm on the receiving end) due to the constant (and excessive) screen shake. I'd rather be hit by a large blob of LRMs than a constant stream.

[Mr 144]

bookmarking for analysis.....

It does interesting things to heat effeciency. The compilated part is feasible min/max builds under the suggested guildlines...big alphas...long cooldowns for snipers is what I'm seeing. I'm not against this, as missed shots could be very painful...but a lot of calculations are required.

Edit: On LRMs...I hate the duality of the term, but "tube count" refers to how they'll actually fire from the mech based on its launcher modeling...or actual equipped launcher tubes? This is an important characteristic for some chassis, and can greatly influence usability penalties.

Edited by Mr 144, 20 March 2014 - 07:36 AM.

[SirLANsalot]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 March 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

I am actually Ok with the Charge, even if I can't get the timing right in the thick of it. It was a good answer to the Minimum Range in my eyes.

yup. Also a good 15-20 matching with a Gauss Rifle (in a row) will quickly make you proficient with the gun as you learn to get the timing down, and what sound cues to listen for. Headphones go a LONG way to being able to hear the Gauss Charge, even in combat, speakers are never a good thing to use for gaming...EVER.

Livewyr, on 20 March 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

I see 3 critical changes that need to happen if brawling is going to be a thing again.

1st: Slow down the RoF of long range weapons. (That's how most games I've played balance between short and long range weapons.)
PPCs/ERPPCs to 6-7 (and remove the 90m all or nothing.. bring it back to scaling damage)
Gauss to 7-8 (and remove that blasted charge-up..)
LL/ERLL to 6-7
LRMs to 5-6

This allows them to be used at long range, but not as destructively, and gives brawlers the upper hand on arrival to close range.

2nd: Reduce the over-range of ballistics down to 2x from 3x.
Gauss down to 1320 from 1980.
AC20 down to 540 from 810.
AC10 down
UAC5 down
AC5 down
AC2 down
etc..

This balances ballistics against each other, and against lasers and missiles. (Currently the AC20 does more damage than the AC10, at the AC10s max optimal range.)

3rd: Increase missile spread of boated LRMs.
Every 5 tubes above 40 (two LRM 20s) earns a 30% increase in initial spread.
45 tubes = 130% of spread
50 tubes = 160% of spread
55 tubes = 190% of spread
60 tubes = 220% of spread
65 tubes = 250% of spread
70 tubes = 280% of spread.

If you want to bring your own artillery turret.. you get artillery accuracy.
(Lore reason: Guidance systems overload.)


That wouldn't fix all the problems, but I think it would make a big dent in the mass casualties of bring a brawler. (as a result of balancing long range weapons..)

No......lots of no.

Decreasing RoF has one major issue. We ALL already know what the guns once WERE, aka the cat is out of the bag. As such doing that leaves a very very very bad taste in players mouths because we once knew how the weapons did work before and will always be struggling against that fact.

I would rather see LRM range increase (2k range with 1/2 damage over 1k) then see Ballistic weapon range decrease. It achieves the same purpose, but, again, doesn't leave a bad taste in players mouths over a nerf, and instead is better received as its a buff.

Spread is FINE AS IT IS, do you have any idea how many missiles MISS there target when a full LRM 15 or 20 hits with no TAG/Narc or Art bonus? Its when those things are being applied that LRMs are at there most deadly, and besides, and LRM 20 is only 22 damage ACROSS YOUR ENTIRE MECH.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sybreed, on 20 March 2014 - 07:32 AM, said:

yeah, makes no sense for a weapon like the Gauss. It'd make more sense with shells like ACs, because some types of shell require a minimum range to explode on impact (like grenade launchers?) But still, ACs are not grenade launchers.

In any case, if PGI really wants to keep their charge mechanic, I'd rather have it increase the dmg from 1 to 15 as you hold it, but if you release it too soon, it won't deal the full 15 dmg. At least you can fire in twitch scenarios.

Correct ACs are Depleted Uranium Penetrators

Thanks Sir, I gt the Headphones... Just not the patience right now to master the timing.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 March 2014 - 07:37 AM.

[Sybreed]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 March 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

Thanks Sir, I gt the Headphones... Just not the patience right now to master the timing.

same