517 replies to this topic

[Mirkk Defwode]

Sug, on 21 March 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

Weight is only an issue for lights/meds that can't boat ballistics. Short term damage potential makes them worth it for heavier mechs. And no one is running out of ammo in a match except maybe boats with 3+ of the same weapon, after they do 800+ damage.

They need to adjust them in a way that doesn't overly punish people using a single ballistic weapon. Realistically the only way they can is through ghost heat, projectile speed, damage, heat, range, and cooldown. Those are the only things they've ever changed.

They can't adjust slots or weight because of stock mechs, and they're not going to add recoil because honestly it would take them two years to figure it out.

I agree tuning them back for recycle time would be good. Especially the smaller ACs of the 2's and 5's. I think the heat should be about the same, and the damage seems okay - but going back to multiple manufacturers to get a bunch of different behaviors.

Personally I think all of the weapons need an overhaul.

[Davoke]

Personally, i'd like Koniving's "Multi-Shot AC" concept, where autocannons gain different quirks based on what "model" of what class is purchased. For instance, an AC/20 firing a 20 "shot"(1 damage per bullet, with 20 bullets equalling 1 "shot") burst over a second and a half, but it gets a shorter reload time; or an AC/2 firing a 1 damage shot every quarter of a second, with total ammo load increased; an AC/10 firing four 2.5 damage shots over a 3/4 second period, but it gets a range boost. etc., etc. Personally i like this, because it makes it more like the books, where apparently every autocannon is a burst fire gun, further reinforcing the concept of the 31st century is tough, because that 50 tonner there can take multiple hits from a 105mm gun and still be combat effective. I also like it for the balance concept of spreading damage(increasing fight times).

But still...pulse lasers and SRM's need work before PGI should touch autocannons.

[Sug]

Mirkk Defwode, on 21 March 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

Personally I think all of the weapons need an overhaul.

Pretty much. Gauss is pretty ok though.

Davoke, on 21 March 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

But still...pulse lasers and SRM's need work before PGI should touch autocannons.

They can either buff lasers by making them more like ballistics or nerf ballistics by making them more like lasers.

SRMs are just ******.

[Mirkk Defwode]

Sug, on 21 March 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

Pretty much. Gauss is pretty ok though.



They can either buff lasers by making them more like ballistics or nerf ballistics by making them more like lasers.

SRMs are just ******.

Gauss I actually think needs a behavioral change to be an active charge up but it doesn't disappear if you continue to maintain it in a charged state.

So I'd say:

• Inactive: Non-charged or Recycle time. If destroyed in this state just destroys weapon + internal damage regardless of armor state
  
• Charged: User activated charge of the weapon for powering capacitors. If destroyed in this state 100% chance of causing weapon explosion with extensive internal damage - If located in a limb
  
  • User activated charge is a two step system. User hits button to activated the weapon/group where it'll charge the capacitor. Remains charged until weapon discharge.
    
    • 0.5 second charge up time
  • Leaving it in the charged state for an excess of 45 seconds causes static +15 heat (Similar to the mechanics used on hot planets/maps for how it affects the heat scale)
    
  • Weapon heat for firing the weapon will add to the static heat, but all will dissipate normally if left in the uncharge state

With a setup like that the weapon is completely unique it's behavior, becomes usable for jump snipers and anyone else who chooses to utilize it in any fashion they deem fit. The rest of the stats can stay the same.

[Eddrick]

Mirkk Defwode, on 21 March 2014 - 04:27 PM, said:

I agree tuning them back for recycle time would be good. Especially the smaller ACs of the 2's and 5's. I think the heat should be about the same, and the damage seems okay - but going back to multiple manufacturers to get a bunch of different behaviors.

Personally I think all of the weapons need an overhaul.

The only thing I have against making the recycle time longer, is that it doesn't really change anything for them being used as a substitute for the Gauss Rifle. Personaly, I have nothing against the Gauss Rilfe. But, I do have a problem with people using ACs as a substitute.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

My feelings on the listed items.

Must haves

• Either reduce maximum range from 3x to 2x or simply rethink range altogether.
  
• Reduce projectile speeds, but only for AC2s for sure (and not by much either), so that the Gauss is the only hypersonic ballistic weapon in the game.
  
• Increase Cooldown (lower rate of fire), but only for the AC2 for sure, to help with it's intense heat, and not much is needed, even a bump to 0.60 would help.
  
• Tweaked ammo explosion values, but we would need a small tweak to CASE along with such a change.

Nice to have

• Burst fire (beam-like damage), but only as options with tweaks to current Front Loaded Ballistics, such as increased cooldown as necessary for more weapon options.
  
• Recoil (based on impulse) - would be nice to have, would just be a question of being able to set the values.

Unlikely, but plausible options on the table

• Increase drop-off rate of autocannon rounds (from Coralld) - I'd like to try other things out first, but it's an option and I think is connected to projectile speeds, just not sure.
  
• Ammo location requirements (ammo has to be in same component or adjacent component) - interesting idea, but the question is time to code this in, but it is an interesting idea for mechs that do not have at least one hand for more mech quirks (would be sweet watching a Victor or Atlas load their AC/20 with their free hand for example).
  
• Convergence (based on weapon tonnage) - only limited by technical issues as far as we know but an option
  
• A straight up reduction of damage per shot with an increase of shots per ton to equal current damage per ton (for example if an AC/20 would have each projectile deal 10 damage each, then each ton would be 14 shots instead of 7, and cooldown can be cut from the current 4.00 to 2.00 to keep DPS at 5.00 as necessary)
  
• Reduce Ammo per ton, maybe as a last resort.
  
• increase hardpoint requirements for certain weapons. Say an ER/PPC might need two energy hardpoints along with three crit slots to mount, or an AC/20 might need two ballistic hardpoints to mount along with the 10 crit slot points and so on as necessary to help place plausible limits for mechs. (would need to check current mech variants to make sure enough hardpoints are in the proper sections of the stock builds, but hey at least it's another idea on the table).

I hope not

• Cone of fire like what MGs currently have - I hope not, but it is an option on the table if nothing else works. I'd like to see that removed on MG's!
  
• Increase critical slots by 1 - I just hope not.

[Deathlike]

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

And, for the record, which f'ing idiot thought it a good idea for damage done to equipment to transfer back to the IS? YOU JUST FREAKING HIT MY IS!!!

If you summon his name, he will say TREBUCHET!

The "balance" reason is to transfer crit/component damage from MGs to actual internal damage, but it happens to apply to EVERY weapon. So... enjoy!

[Turist0AT]

God, please, no more nerfs. Cant we just buff lasers instead.

[Mazzyplz]

i say increase cooldown on the small ACs

then look at the screen shake mechanic for all weapons and tweak or remove it.

when people flood autocannon, streaks or lrm now, it's impossible to see out the window, and it seals your fate quickly.
this shouldn't be. it's why knockdown was taken out, it stun locks people.
and it's a stupid advantage nobody should have

[TehSBGX]

Burst Fire... That is all.

[BlackDeathLegion]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 21 March 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

(I wanted to make this a Poll, but either I am too dumb to figure out how to make one, or naive enough to believe a public forum was a good place for gathering consensus)

Paul said autocannons are getting an adjustment, what do you think it should be and why? (Note these changes only apply to autocannons, not other projectile weapons like Gauss and PPC).

• Reduce maximum range from 3x to 2x
  
• Reduce projectile speeds
  
• Increase Cooldown (lower rate of fire)
  
• Burst fire (beam-like damage)
  
• Reduce Ammo per ton
  
• Increase critical slots by 1
  
• Recoil (based on impulse)
  
• Ammo location requirements (ammo has to be in same component or adjacent component)
  
• Convergence (based on weapon tonnage)
  
• Increase drop-off rate of autocannon rounds (from Coralld)

I feel that these BELOW 3 NEED to happen...

• Reduce maximum range from 3x to 2x
  
• Increase Cooldown (lower rate of fire)
  
• Recoil (based on impulse)

* If not reduce the maximum range from 3x to 2x...


PGI MUST GREATLY Increase the bullets DROP OFF (gravity pulls things down).
I know AC's shots fired are effected by drop off, but they need to drop off MUCH MORE. In case of the AC/2.

Your target is say 2,050m away on alpine peaks. You Aim at the targets CT and Fire upon a target standing still and your AC/2 round lands into the targets legs (Knees). That shot NEEDs to hit the ground MUCH MUCH FARTHER IN FRONT of the target then it does now. If your going to Keep this 3x max range crap!

* Recoil (based on impulse). ...
Adding recoil, aka the "jump jet screen shake" when firing AC's... will HELP to Spread Damage out to the target. Making a more "Battletech" feel and realism to MWO. Since "pin point damage" is a Huge PROBLEM with MWO currently!!!

Edited by BlackDeathLegion, 21 March 2014 - 08:03 PM.

[Turist0AT]

TehSBGX, on 21 March 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

Burst Fire... That is all.

You have a machine gun dont you, go burst fire that.

[stjobe]

Turist0AT, on 22 March 2014 - 01:40 AM, said:

You have a machine gun dont you, go burst fire that.

MGs are continuous-fire, not burst fire.

There are currently no burst-fire weapons in MWO.

[theta123]

There is no such thing as burst fire autocannons in real life either. This whole burst fire thing is just....

Here is my 5 cents:

Cone of fire after long firing times: This happens with real life barrels in guns/cannons. They build up heat, their accuracy goes down, and they can even burst.
Convergence: Give all Autocannons a cone, as above, so that that problem is solved aswel. No cannon can deliver pin point accuracy.
Recoil: Increase recoil and decrease accuracy for objects on the move.

Keep ammo/ton, Keep critical slots as they are. AC2's need a nerf in ROF but the ghost heat thing on it adjusted.

I have slept only 5 hours and i have a hungover. So the english might not be so-so.

Edited by theta123, 22 March 2014 - 04:20 AM.

[East Indy]

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

that would inheriently mess with there system of convergence. You would have shots simply not registering.

If that were true, jump-jet shake, cockpit shake, and aiming itself would all be problematic. What I'm describing is simply moving the reticle.

[Bishop Steiner]

theta123, on 22 March 2014 - 04:20 AM, said:

There is no such thing as burst fire autocannons in real life either. This whole burst fire thing is just....

Here is my 5 cents:

Cone of fire after long firing times: This happens with real life barrels in guns/cannons. They build up heat, their accuracy goes down, and they can even burst.
Convergence: Give all Autocannons a cone, as above, so that that problem is solved aswel. No cannon can deliver pin point accuracy.
Recoil: Increase recoil and decrease accuracy for objects on the move.

Keep ammo/ton, Keep critical slots as they are. AC2's need a nerf in ROF but the ghost heat thing on it adjusted.

I have slept only 5 hours and i have a hungover. So the english might not be so-so.

not bad ideas-


I also have long been a proponent of CoF in these instances:

-Jumping. We currently essentially have it on the upjump. I think it should take a full second for it to go away AFTER thrust is cut. No targeting computer is going to be instantly able to snap back to pinpoint precision, taking a second is logical.

-High Heat. As the targeting computer gets heat addled, and the barrels warp from heat, pinpoint precision is simply not possible, as even the targeting computers speed is affected (think about what running hot does to your PCs ability to process), thus it's accuracy is degraded. anytime one sustains heat over 75% let's say (maybe lower) on has a worsening CoF as one gets hotter.

-Flank Speed. No tank or aircraft is as accurate at max or near max speed, or these vehicles would seldom move at less than max velocity. at 75% of max throttle, degrade accuracy through a CoF. It would have little impact at brawling distances, but that perfect snapshot at 2K while running max speed over broken terrain? Luck of the draw, just like IRL. The Church of Skill needs to learn that there are always variables beyond their control, and IRL, skill is having the ability to overcome or make the most of life when it gives you lemons. Snipers don't shoot while running for a reason. Running is far more inherently unstable movement than tracked or wheeled locomotion, and as such, there is no way that a targeting system would have instant perfect adjustments.

-Beyond Optimal Range. Simple really. Weapons have an optimal range, and a maximum effective range. Optimal range is where the weapon is still capable of high degree of accuracy and near maximum lethality. Beyond that, accuracy and lethality are reduced. They currently allow ballistics to fire 3x past their TT maximums, and energy weapons 2x. Anytime one fires beyond a weapons TT max (such as 540 meters for a PPC) on incurs a worsening CoF the greater the distance, because the targeting system was not designed to function at those ranges.

Yes, the ideas offend our "e-sport" brethren, but their lack of understanding of what skill actually means (or sports, for that matter) offends me, so hey, fair trade. It adds elements of realism to the game, and also would make things like Clan Targeting Computers very easy to implement, as they would reduce and in some cases, remove the CoF during those conditions, while having no real bonus in "optimal" conditions.

[stjobe]

So, being a programmer, I was thinking about how difficult it would be to turn ACs into burst-fire weapons (it makes a nice change from bashing my head against trying to get a very peculiar 32-bit COM DLL running on a 64-bit .Net server application).

As it turns out, it most likely wouldn't be hard at all. In fact, I doubt if it would take a programmer more than half a day's work to get it ready for testing. Here's what I figure:

All weapons have an entry in ItemStats.xml that looks like this:

<Weapon id="1020" name="AutoCannon10">
<Loc nameTag="@AC10" descTag="@AC10_desc" iconTag="StoreIcons\AutoCannon10.dds"/>
<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="7" type="Ballistic" projectileclass="bullet" numFiring="1" damage="10" heatdamage="0" impulse="0.06" heat="3.0" cooldown="2.5" ammoType="AC10Ammo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="450" maxRange="1350" tons="12" duration="0.0" lifetime="10.0" speed="950" volleydelay="0" gravity="0,0,-9.8" maxDepth="10.0"/>
<EffectList>
<Effect name="Projectile" asset="objects/weapons/autocannon_shell.cgf" scale="1.0" mass="10"/>
<Effect name="ProjectileMaterial" asset="mat_ac10"/>
<Effect name="Muzzle" asset="mech_weapons.autocannon_10.muzzle_flash"/>
<Effect name="MuzzleFP" asset="mech_weapons.autocannon_10.muzzle_flash_fp"/>
<Effect name="Sound:Fire" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac10_fire" float="0.0"/>
<Effect name="Sound:PostFire" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac10_tail" float="0.0"/>
<Effect name="Sound:Reload" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:ac10_reload" float="1.5"/>
<Effect name="DamageBrush" asset="Textures\\decals\\damage_brushes\\ac_20.tif"/>
<Effect name="DamageBrushType" asset="direct" float="32" float2="32"/>
</EffectList>
<Audio OnDestroyedDialogue="BB_AutoCannon_Destroyed"/>
</Weapon>

The interesting part is in the WeaponStats tag:

<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="7" type="Ballistic" projectileclass="bullet" numFiring="1" damage="10" heatdamage="0" impulse="0.06" heat="3.0" cooldown="2.5" ammoType="AC10Ammo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="450" maxRange="1350" tons="12" duration="0.0" lifetime="10.0" speed="950" volleydelay="0" gravity="0,0,-9.8" maxDepth="10.0"/>

This tag defines, among other things, the damage, heat, cooldown, and duration of any beam.

To make ACs into burst-fire weapons, two new attributes would need to be added to this tag: burstsize and burstspeed. These would define how many rounds per burst the weapon has, and how fast the weapon fires the burst.

(or they could repurpose two of the tags not used for ACs, like numFiring for burstsize and duration for burstspeed)

For our hypothetical burst-fire AC/10, the WeaponStats tag might look like this:

<WeaponStats Health="10" slots="7" type="Ballistic" projectileclass="bullet" numFiring="1" damage="2.5" heatdamage="0" impulse="0.06" heat="3.0" cooldown="2.1" ammoType="AC10Ammo" ammoPerShot="1" minRange="0" longRange="450" maxRange="1350" tons="12" duration="0.0" burstsize="4" burstspeed="0.1" lifetime="10.0" speed="950" volleydelay="0" gravity="0,0,-9.8" maxDepth="10.0"/>

This would make the AC/10 fire a four-round burst, four projectiles of 2.5 damage each, at 0.1-second intervals (so 0.4 seconds for the whole burst) before going on cooldown for 2.1 seconds (making it have the same DPS as before).

The firing code would then need to be modified to fire the weapon burstsize number of times at burstspeed interval before going on cooldown, instead of just firing once (this is the part that actually would need some programmer time), and that's it.

That's the whole change needed to make ACs burst-fire.

Edited by stjobe, 26 March 2014 - 04:38 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

nerf heat or fire rate on AC2, AC5, UAC5





gauss, ac10, ac20 and lbx10 are FINE.


and this is coming from someone who never uses them

oh and nerf machinegun, it's ridiculous, give it longer range and decrease spread cone but give it less critical chance


edit:
also, give AC2 a slight cone just very slight over 1200m, so at max range its hitting all different components -
actually if you do this nerfing the fire rate on ac2 might not be needed just nerfing the screen shake would do

Edited by Mazzyplz, 26 March 2014 - 04:51 PM.

[The Mad Katter]

Dear people who are calling for anything other than reducing range on ballistics (including gauss and PPC):

You are why brawling is dead. At 1km, LRMs already go too far. Nothing except maybe gauss rifles should compete with them, and yet, I can think of quite a few that not only compete, but out range them. By damn near half a kilometer. Brawls are limited by the fact that the maps are too small, and the weapon ranges too long. Why should I get in a stand up fight if I can kill you from 1200m away?

As it is, the game is Counterstrike in mechs, which is not what I came here for. I came here to guard convoys, patrol waypoints, take objectives, and yeah, kill some other mechs in the process. I've played every BT/MW game that has ever been released for the PC, and this one is rapidly becoming a huge disappointment. If MW4 would install on Win7 64bit, I'd go back to playing it, but the installer refuses to even run. So I'm stuck here. But I'm not having fun. If I wanted to play Couterstrike, I'd play Counterstrike.

[Khobai]

Changes I'd like to see:
Ballistic max range should be reduced from x3 to x2.5 (helps normalize AC ranges with other weapons)
AC5 heat should be increased from 1 to 1.5 (AC5 runs way too cool)
AC2 heat should be lowered from 1.00 to 0.67 (AC2 runs way too hot)