61 replies to this topic

[MayGay]

They buff them. Really, WTF? The last 10 or so matches I've played, the first time I get targeted by the enemy I have an unending stream of LRMs hitting me, and now I can't even get to cover before I get slammed by them. It is completely out of hand right now.

First this is not canon for Battletech, I don't know how much you are trying to stick to canon, but it takes semi-guided LRMs and TAG to even come close to this. First semi-guided LRMs aren't even available until 3057, meaning TAG should not even affect LRMs, and semi-guided LRMs are incompatible with Artemis IV and cost three times the amount of standard LRMs. That being said, indirect fire with LRMs is dreadfully inaccurate, the TT rules make it a long shot at best. The formula is firing 'mech's gunnery usually 4, + range, + movement, +1 for indirect fire, target movement, + spotter's movement, + terrain modifiers from the spotting unit, furthermore if the spotter makes any attacks add +1, and + 1 to any attacks the spotter makes, than try to roll that number on 2 6-sided dice. So we'll say target is 420 meters away or 14 hexes making it medium range at +2, pilot has a gunnery skill of 4, 'mech didn't move, but the spotter did move at a run so +2, but did not attack, target is an Atlas who moved forward at a run in a straight line for a +2 and there is no cover so the 'mech making an indirect attack against a running Atlas with a light 'mech spotting at medium range requires the roll of 11 on 2d6, a very low probability shot.

I recommend cutting indirect LRM fire accuracy in half, reducing spread, reducing the height LRMs climb to, and increasing reload times on all launchers. Leave TAG as it is I like that it is useful now. Also immediately removing the champion stalker from the trial 'mechs, if people want 60 LRM tubes with A IV, let them fork out the 12+ million c-bills for it. As right now, there really is no point in taking anything other than an LRM boat.

[zztophat]

Can't tell if serious...

[Varent]

zztophat, on 21 March 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Can't tell if serious...

my money is on newish player or super low elo.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

my money is on newish player or super low elo.

Wait..did he say LRM's were out of hand BEFORE the patch?

[Bishop Steiner]

because the shortest ranged "long range weapon" in the game, which is still laughable beyond 500 meters because of projectile speed, is so dangerous.

Stop standing in the open in a slow assault mech. Or get within 180 meters. Then LRMboats die real good like.

[Alcom Isst]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

because the shortest ranged "long range weapon" in the game, which is still laughable beyond 500 meters because of projectile speed, is so dangerous.

Stop standing in the open in a slow assault mech. Or get within 180 meters. Then LRMboats die real good like.

LRM boats tend to stand 180 meters apart though, so things get rather tricky.
I hate how this game makes me use my brain.

[DEMAX51]

LRMs were not out of hand before the buff - in fact they were incredibly underused by teams who know what they're doing. They needed a buff.

Right now people are still just taking more LRMs than usual so they can get a feel for them. This will die down soon.

Indirect fire already doesn't get a tracking bonus for Artemis - you have to have line of sight for Artemis to do anything.

And as for the Trial Stalker - three words, buddy - Extra Light Engine. Stalkers have huge side torsos, and the trial is packing an XL, making it incredibly easy to kill. Not to mention, it's got terrible heat efficiency.

Just hang in there buddy - or take a break and come back in a couple of weeks. It'll get better.

[Trauglodyte]

No because you are bad.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 March 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

because the shortest ranged "long range weapon" in the game, which is still laughable beyond 500 meters because of projectile speed, is so dangerous.

Stop standing in the open in a slow assault mech. Or get within 180 meters. Then LRMboats die real good like.

So due to my mediumness, I bought a Wolverine 7K to test LRM's. So no skills. 2 LRM 10's and an LRM 5.

Barely qualifies as a boat.

But people just do not understand how to deal with LRM's at all. I wish I could sit here and say I was awesome, but it's just bad play.

For instance, I was in a match where I managed to get above someone. They realized where I was shooting them from and moved to the wall below me to get out of sight.

Sounds good right?

But instead of walking along the wall to get to me, they would stand at the wall for 4 or 5 seconds, then move right back into a position where I could shoot them. It happened 7 or 8 times before I eventually killed them.

I guess they were hoping I'd forget they were down there or something?

But good lord.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 21 March 2014 - 11:17 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I definitely think the LRM buff was a good thing, but I'd be open to spread and lock-on time nerfs to indirect fire. I don't like the idea that an LRM boat taking risks and achieving his own locks should perform exactly the same as an identical boat letting someone else do all of the hard work for him.

[Varent]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 March 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Wait..did he say LRM's were out of hand BEFORE the patch?

that he did good sir... that he did...

Kaeb Odellas, on 21 March 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

I definitely think the LRM buff was a good thing, but I'd be open to spread and lock-on time nerfs to indirect fire. I don't like the idea that an LRM boat taking risks and achieving his own locks should perform exactly the same as an identical boat letting someone else do all of the hard work for him.

I actually like the concept of others doing that since it promotes role warfare in light mechs.

[Roadbeer]

Quote

SO WHAT DO THEY DO WHEN LRMS ARE GETTING OUT OF HAND?

Some how blame the Evil Premade Boogeyman?

I'm sure someone will find a way

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

that he did good sir... that he did... I actually like the concept of others doing that since it promotes role warfare in light mechs.

I honestly don't care about Indirect fire.

They can increase the spread and lock times on it. I'm even good with them reducing the speed of missiles fired indirectly.

Then buff direct fire more.

That's solid.

[Trauglodyte]

Kaeb Odellas, on 21 March 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

I definitely think the LRM buff was a good thing, but I'd be open to spread and lock-on time nerfs to indirect fire. I don't like the idea that an LRM boat taking risks and achieving his own locks should perform exactly the same as an identical boat letting someone else do all of the hard work for him.

Here is the sticky situation about that. LRM spread without Artemis, TAG, or NARC is pretty bad. LRM5s are fine, LRM10s are more like LRM8-9s. Once you step up to the 15 and 20, you're losing 3-5 missiles per launch. That is why we've got missile damage set at 1.1 instead of 1.0 like it should be. LRM launchers NEED the t2 upgrades to make them deadly but none of that matters once you're out of LOS anyway because you don't benefit from other people's TAG and your own is lost due to LOS, Artemis is lost due to LOS, so all you really have is NARC but that is blocked if the target is an ECM mech or your target is within the ECM bubble of another mech (you still lose the targetting/spread bonus on NARC - the change just made it so that the target remains targettable).

What really needs to happen is to have all launchers have the same spread. Set it at the medium between the 10 and the 15. That way, the t2 upgrades benefit all launchers, including 5s, and the spread of 5s and 10s are bigger so that they're not the preferred launcher of people firing indirectly.

BUT, and here is the other part of the "sticky issue", something needs to be done to the interaction of LRMs and TAG with fast mechs. NARC stays on the target and Artemis remains as long as the target is in LOS. But, it is freaking near impossible to get your LRMs to make a dent on a Light mech due to their size and speed (most of your missiles outright miss and splash the ground doing nothing). TAG is hard to maintain on the target even with the updated speed of missiles. SO, you're often not getting the benefit of the laser on targets because it is hard to maintain track. I have a 40% hit record, both archived and current, with TAG. That means that I'm often not getting the added spread reducing benefit of it and that is a problem. Something needs to be done about making sure that you get everything out of it (maybe allow the bonus to be in effect for X amount of seconds like how PPCs knock out ECM) and LRMs need to function better against fast mechs.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

I actually like the concept of others doing that since it promotes role warfare in light mechs.

Does it though? Light mechs are already the best spotters for LRMs. If you want to promote more light mechs carrying NARC, TAG, and UAVs, then increase the rewards for them.

You should get a CBill and XP reward for every point of damage an LRM boat does to a target you have TAG, NARC, or a UAV trained on. You should get rewarded for every missile a friendly LRM boat even fires at your TAGged, NARCed, or UAVed target, as even if those missiles don't hit, those LRMs are still suppressing those mechs and forcing them into cover, and you're the one who made that possible.

An expanded reward system would help promote all kinds of teamwork. A "Missile Defense" bonus for having AMS shoot down missiles would be nice. A "Tank" bonus for taking damage for your team would definitely promote selfless behavior. An Atlas pilot leading the charge and tanking 600 damage from focus fire for his team and dealing back only 100 damage before going down will get horrible rewards, but could have been instrumental to his team's victory if it gave his teammates a chance to advance and kill the enemy.

[Lyoto Machida]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 21 March 2014 - 11:09 AM, said:

Wait..did he say LRM's were out of hand BEFORE the patch?

[Varent]

Kaeb Odellas, on 21 March 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Does it though? Light mechs are already the best spotters for LRMs. If you want to promote more light mechs carrying NARC, TAG, and UAVs, then increase the rewards for them.

I also think this is a good idea. I think both are good concepts and ideas really.

We could use more role warfare.

Having dedicated LRM boats also promotes Role warefare.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Here is the sticky situation about that. LRM spread without Artemis, TAG, or NARC is pretty bad. LRM5s are fine, LRM10s are more like LRM8-9s. Once you step up to the 15 and 20, you're losing 3-5 missiles per launch. That is why we've got missile damage set at 1.1 instead of 1.0 like it should be. LRM launchers NEED the t2 upgrades to make them deadly but none of that matters once you're out of LOS anyway because you don't benefit from other people's TAG and your own is lost due to LOS, Artemis is lost due to LOS, so all you really have is NARC but that is blocked if the target is an ECM mech or your target is within the ECM bubble of another mech (you still lose the targetting/spread bonus on NARC - the change just made it so that the target remains targettable).

I'm pretty sure TAG helps friendly missiles as well. Otherwise you wouldn't be rewarded for tagging enemies for your allies. Do you have a source for that?

TAG also defeats ECM coverage for the tagged mech, and that works for friendlies too. ECM issues are a result of ECM being overpowered, not LRMs being too weak. I'd really prefer if they just toned down all of the LRM "modifier" equipment across the board. It would definitely make it easier to balance them if their effects weren't so drastic.

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

What really needs to happen is to have all launchers have the same spread. Set it at the medium between the 10 and the 15. That way, the t2 upgrades benefit all launchers, including 5s, and the spread of 5s and 10s are bigger so that they're not the preferred launcher of people firing indirectly.

Agreed on all counts. There's pretty much no reason to carry big LRMs right now if you can carry a stack of small ones.

Trauglodyte, on 21 March 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

BUT, and here is the other part of the "sticky issue", something needs to be done to the interaction of LRMs and TAG with fast mechs. NARC stays on the target and Artemis remains as long as the target is in LOS. But, it is freaking near impossible to get your LRMs to make a dent on a Light mech due to their size and speed (most of your missiles outright miss and splash the ground doing nothing). TAG is hard to maintain on the target even with the updated speed of missiles. SO, you're often not getting the benefit of the laser on targets because it is hard to maintain track. I have a 40% hit record, both archived and current, with TAG. That means that I'm often not getting the added spread reducing benefit of it and that is a problem. Something needs to be done about making sure that you get everything out of it (maybe allow the bonus to be in effect for X amount of seconds like how PPCs knock out ECM) and LRMs need to function better against fast mechs.

I really haven't had too much trouble with lights now that LRMs are faster. Lights should take less damage from LRMs anyway, since they effectively take less damage from every other weapon anyway, barring streaks, and LRMs should not behave like 600m streaks against Light mechs. It's easier to use LRMs against them if you're playing a fast medium LRMisher.

It's important to note that you don't have to keep TAG on target 100% of the time. You only need it on target to speed up the initial lock and just before impact to get the spread bonus. I have a 41% archived accuracy with them, and I spend the couple minutes of every match zapping teammates with them because I like the pewpew noise.

Varent, on 21 March 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

I also think this is a good idea. I think both are good concepts and ideas really.

We could use more role warfare.

Having dedicated LRM boats also promotes Role warefare.

Dedicated LRM boats are fine, but they don't need to sit 500m from the front lines hiding behind a hill the entire match. If you want to do that, that's fine, but I don't think that kind of behavior should be encouraged by game mechanics. Parking yourself behind a hill means the enemy has one less target to shoot at, which puts more pressure on your front-line mechs.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 21 March 2014 - 12:09 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Kaeb Odellas, on 21 March 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure TAG helps friendly missiles as well. Otherwise you wouldn't be rewarded for tagging enemies for your allies. Do you have a source for that?

TAG also defeats ECM coverage for the tagged mech, and that works for friendlies too. ECM issues are a result of ECM being overpowered, not LRMs being too weak. I'd really prefer if they just toned down all of the LRM "modifier" equipment across the board. It would definitely make it easier to balance them if their effects weren't so drastic.

TAG does defeat enemy ECM which is why it is so important for LRM users. BUT, TAG also provides a spread reduction modifier which you don't get from friendly mechs if the target is an ECM mech. TAG, NARC, and Artemis are essential to making LRMs deadly. The TAG effect only lasts for 1s which, I guess is ok, but it could be longer.

Quote

At A Glance

• 50% bonus to missile tracking strength
  
• Target lock takes 25% longer to decay
  
• Decreases missile lock on time by 50%
  
• Must be mounted on an energy Hardpoint
  
• Displays an icon (a small crosshair symbol) above the target's red triangle icon in HUD to display to team-mates that target is being lased.
  
• Effect lasts for 1 second after each laser "hit".
  
• Generates no heat, recommend using continuous fire.
  
• TAG completely nullifies ECM (One target only) if the beam is held on the target from beyond the ECM's range.

Quote

I really haven't had too much trouble with lights now that LRMs are faster. Lights should take less damage from LRMs anyway, since they effectively take less damage from every other weapon anyway, barring streaks, and LRMs should not behave like 600m streaks against Light mechs. It's easier to use LRMs against them if you're playing a fast medium LRMisher.

It's important to note that you don't have to keep TAG on target 100% of the time. You only need it on target to speed up the initial lock and just before impact to get the spread bonus. I have a 41% archived accuracy with them, and I spend the couple minutes of every match zapping teammates with them because I like the pewpew noise.

The problem with Lights isn't that you can't damage them but rather that it is hard to keep the TAG on them and that most of your payload is wasted on them. Against all targets under 120kph, LRMs splash torsos. Against anything faster and the missiles all go for the legs due to the weird angle they take pre-hit. Essentially, you're not getting anything from TAG even if you can keep it on them every second or so because the spread is about the size of a dime on screen vs legs that are barely 1/4th as wide. Why is there a double standard on where the missiles are hitting?

I really would love it if LRMs ripple fired in groups of 5 which each group focusing in on locations like Streaks. Artemis, NARC, and TAG would then increase the chance of hitting torsos. You could reduce missile health so that AMS was stronger to counter the fact that the missiles no longer have a spread.

[zztophat]

Roadbeer, on 21 March 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:

Some how blame the Evil Premade Boogeyman?

I'm sure someone will find a way

James Griffin's profile:

Quote

Looking for as unit, tired of nub teammates in pug games