775 replies to this topic

[Corbon Zackery]

Its not suppose to be easy to hit a target with no line of sight.

You can't see it.

Everyone was happy with 120ms no one was complaining on the forums. As long as you had line of sight and was shooting from 250m to 500 meters you hit everytime.

The Slower speed made indirect fire 600m to 1000m A lot more inaccurate since you had no line of sight. Also you could get to cover.

Now at the current speed and angle of decent since you never fixed it while a light was spotting you. 250m to 500 meters is instant death butter zone. With 600m to 1000m shots hitting at close to 60% of the time.

I as soon as this speed change happened I logged in with a Catapult with 540 missiles on Alpine peaks and by simply pointing, and clicking I downed 3 mech. Hunchback with no AMS piloted by a noob. A AC 40 Jager, and a Atlas who was spotted by a raven. Wow what kind of skill that took.

This was all tried in closed Beta. The damage was at 2.5, speed 190ms and Artimis fire control computer cut the spread down to the point were every shot hit CT you could core a atlas in 2 shots. It made the game unplayable.

They did a huge review of the LRM system, and Crushed it back down to a playable level of .08dmg 120ms and loose spreads of missiles. In 3 to 6 month blocks they said oh we need to make them more powerful. Ok now its March 26 2014 and missiles are back to making the game almost unplayable. Paul even admits oh its been worst before.

So why this even got approved in the first place baffles me. You have 3 months before Clan LRMs come out and if this is going what IS LRMs is going to be like god know what the Clan ones are going to do to the game. Because your going to be able to spam fire them up 90m and do damage.

Its just a dumb point and click weapon. Its used to soften up the enemy before you engage them.

Yet were going to allow a few people who simply want to power game to strap on 60 missile tubes, 1290 ammo, and with the current rate of fire and speed. Point and click a guy to death. What the hell kind of game is that.

I played the champ Stalker during the faction tournament I had 726 damage and 2 kill matches. I'm not even skilled in the thing. That's how ridicules it is. That's how dumb it is.

Paul like oh the low ELO plays can cope with it better. Yea that's because their sitting in the back with a point and click Stalker not learning how to play the game properly because all they have to do is point and click and something dies.

Edited by Corbon Zackery, 26 March 2014 - 06:32 PM.

[Bhelogan]

Yea, I was happy with LRMs in the previous state as well. They are a god send for people with low end systems (or for me when on the road and using a laptop). Effective if used well, but not so strong that they were everywhere. Now I feel like I have to bring LRMs, or I am hindering my team.

[Artgathan]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

Again, your conclusions are mono dimensional.

Look at the ending score. Of the 12 'mechs on the field, 8 that I killed, and the 4 that others killed, I touched each and every one of them. A majority of them, if I interpret my video properly with indirect fire at some point. You remove my indirect damage and that game ends VERY differently.

You're killing me here Dimento

I went back and counted the actual number of LRM volleys you fired. I only counted the shot if you fired it against a target in your LOS that you had TAG on. You fired 1280 LRMs this way. (79% of your ammo). Did the shots you fired indirectly influence the match? Certainly. You helped harass targets. Does it make a huge difference if you remove the indirect fire from the match? Not really. Even if you assume that LRMs did all your damage, and you distribute that damage based on the number of LRMs you fired, you only did an absolute maximum of 160 damage through indirect fire.

[Wolfways]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

First: It is a pre-made, yes, a pre-made of myself in my Stalker, and my brother in his Jaeger. There was no one else in that team speak channel that was in that match.

If you were both in Jagers you would have had about the same result...without indirect fire obviously. I know because my wife and i have games like that a lot.

Quote

LRMS have an extreme propensity to become EASY MODE, period.

Admit it, and live with it.

Very true, if your opponents don't know what they're doing.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

you guys should set speed at 120-140, 160 its still freakin too fast

narc change alone is enough buff for lrms...

you need to hire new reasonable testing team, seriosly

[Dimento Graven]

Boss Awesome, on 26 March 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

I think reducing the speed of LRMs from 175 to 160 is perfect. They definitely needed a buff from 120 since it was tough to hit moving targets. 175 seemed a bit too brutal on light mechs, as they should at least have some defense against homing missiles due to speed. 160 sounds like it will allow LRMs to be just as deadly against the bigger, slower mechs, while giving a little leeway to the fast fragile mechs.

Now we just need some SRM love.

The rule is, missiles should move faster than 'mechs.

We will probably need some sort of new solution if/when MASC is ever implemented though...

[FupDup]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

The rule is, missiles should move faster than 'mechs.

We will probably need some sort of new solution if/when MASC is ever implemented though...

At the old LRM speed, the missiles flied at 120 meters per second. Converting that to kilometers per hour gives us 432 KPH. I don't think any mech of any size, MASC or not, will ever approach that kind of speed.

[Dimento Graven]

Osric Lancaster, on 26 March 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

There are a couple videos, just Google 'flamer stalker'. Pretty sure it's Koniving.

Looked at 'em, so far I haven't found a video where he approaches the amount of kills I got, and no where near the 1100+ point games I got. His build has some serious draw backs too, more so than what my LRM boat has. I can't think of any modules specifically designed to enhance streaks and flamers, nor can I think of any situation where he can indirect fire those at any 'mechs. He HAS to come out into the open and get REALLY close to do his damage.

Unlike an LRM carrier.

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I already admitted that LRMs are easy mode against people who have no clue how to deal with them. I'm also living with it just fine. For ~some reason~ they don't seem to be that common in the matches I play, and I can use cover when they do show up. Hell, I still don't fit LRMs on my Battlemaster because it gives me a big ol' side torso for no real gain. I might consider it if those box launchers had separate hit boxes with separate health like in MW4, but nope. Apparently XL engines are made of silly putty and squish into every available nook and cranny.

Sorry, they're now hell for people who know what they're doing, period.

I'm sorry you think you're invulnerable to LRMs, but, if I had to guess I'd say your ELO score is keeping you out of the realms where it's most commonly used, but that doesn't mean the extreme speed they have now is 'ok'...

[Dimento Graven]

FupDup, on 26 March 2014 - 09:29 PM, said:

At the old LRM speed, the missiles flied at 120 meters per second. Converting that to kilometers per hour gives us 432 KPH. I don't think any mech of any size, MASC or not, will ever approach that kind of speed.

Fup, you've obviously not been paying attention to the state of LRMs BEFORE the patch. BEFORE the LRM speed boost, but AFTER the 'mech speed cap removal, it was EXTREMELY common to have fast lights OUT RUN incoming LRMs.

You can't tell me you never saw it happen, or took advantage of it yourself.

THAT was the problem that needed to be fixed, of course PGI tried a quick kludge, foisted it on us (instead of testing thoroughly) and "hoped" for the best, THEN, proceeded to blame the high ELO players for not adapting as fast as the low ELO players (OMFG, talk about dis'ing your player base).

Artgathan, on 26 March 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

You're killing me here Dimento

I went back and counted the actual number of LRM volleys you fired. I only counted the shot if you fired it against a target in your LOS that you had TAG on. You fired 1280 LRMs this way. (79% of your ammo). Did the shots you fired indirectly influence the match? Certainly. You helped harass targets. Does it make a huge difference if you remove the indirect fire from the match? Not really. Even if you assume that LRMs did all your damage, and you distribute that damage based on the number of LRMs you fired, you only did an absolute maximum of 160 damage through indirect fire.

Art, NOW go back and recount where, I fired with direct LOS, but the target moved OUT OF SITE while the salvos were in flight, refigure your numbers and see how it comes out.

It comes out VERY different, at least it did for me.

It feels like you're trying to be an apologist for sloppy, lazy, unskilled LRMers man.

Cut it out.

I want this to be a skills based game, where the results are based on my own ability to deliver damage to the enemy, not how well the computer can steer my missiles for me...

[Dimento Graven]

Wolfways, on 26 March 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

If you were both in Jagers you would have had about the same result...without indirect fire obviously. I know because my wife and i have games like that a lot.

Yeah, one of you getting 8 kill games in Jaegers?

Vids, please.

I've been playing for over 2 years, I've only done that once (if you count the 7 kill game where one of my team mates rams his red core chest into my 'mech causing a technical "TK").

It's extremely rare. Now, if you and wife COMBINED got 8 kills, yeah, that's doable, for sure. My brother and I did that quite often in the past ourselves.

But it was NEVER easy, not like it is with LRMs.

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Very true, if your opponents don't know what they're doing.

Even IF they know what they're doing, they're in trouble with LRMs. If they're using direct fire weapons, they have to expose themselves at some point, and even if they don't, all I need to do is wait for one of my team mates to get you targeted and I can start delivering the pain.

You want to turn this into an L2P issue, and that's just F'd up.

It's not an L2P issue, it's an issue of PGI providing a bad solution to an existing problem, and we deserving a better one, such as only increasing the speed of the LRMs for the last 100-200 meters of flight. It resolves the near invulnerability fast moving lights had to LRMs, still adds a need to find cover, but doesn't 'over power' the missiles beyond reason.

[FupDup]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

Fup, you've obviously not been paying attention to the state of LRMs BEFORE the patch. BEFORE the LRM speed boost, but AFTER the 'mech speed cap removal, it was EXTREMELY common to have fast lights OUT RUN incoming LRMs.

You can't tell me you never saw it happen, or took advantage of it yourself.

THAT was the problem that needed to be fixed, of course PGI tried a quick kludge, foisted it on us (instead of testing thoroughly) and "hoped" for the best, THEN, proceeded to blame the high ELO players for not adapting as fast as the low ELO players (OMFG, talk about dis'ing your player base).

The fastest lights in the game are most of the Commando variants. Their top speed is 171.1 kph.

Let's look at the maths of the old LRM speed. They were 120 meters per second. We need to convert this to kilometers per hour. First, I'll multiply it by 360 to get meters per hour -- the result is 432,000 meters per hour. Now we need to turn meters into kilometers by diving by 1000. This gives us 432 kilometers per hour.

Pre-buff LRMs were faster than the fastest light by 260.9 kph. Those lights were not out-running the missiles, they were out-maneuvering them. That is an important distinction to make. The missiles cover ground faster than any light could ever hope to do. However, the light was able to make sharp enough turns and/or find cover quickly enough to get most/all of the missiles to miss. Those missiles can't turn on a dime, but some mechs can. That is where the missed Lurms came from. Not speed -- maneuverability. Boosting the speed of Lurms, however, helped reduce the likelihood of the missiles getting outmaneuvered.

Edited by FupDup, 26 March 2014 - 09:55 PM.

[Thunder Child]

I say, Buff LRMS! But let weapons fire intercept them. Then my Hex-MG Jager will be the Ultimate Missile Defense Platform, MWAHAHAAAAAA

[Thunder Child]

And as a serious counter-point to the argument, before the buff, I'd see one, maybe two LRM-Carriers per match, and they always did negligible damage for the tonnage they took up. Yes, LRMs are a little OP at the moment, but at least they are playable again. Now we just need a buff to Lasers and everything will be OP.... except Flamers.... But no-one really likes them anyways.

[Wolfways]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

Yeah, one of you getting 8 kill games in Jaegers?

Vids, please.

I've been playing for over 2 years, I've only done that once (if you count the 7 kill game where one of my team mates rams his red core chest into my 'mech causing a technical "TK").

It's extremely rare. Now, if you and wife COMBINED got 8 kills, yeah, that's doable, for sure. My brother and I did that quite often in the past ourselves.

But it was NEVER easy, not like it is with LRMs.

You do realize that you aren't the only one doing damage right? Getting kills means little, just like doing high damage (which LRM's are meant to do) means little. It's a combined effort to kill the enemy mechs as fast as possible. Your team killed those mechs just as much as you did.
Obviously i was talking about combined kills, but in our best (i.e.most fun) match the two of us were up against seven enemy when our team managed to die almost instantly. We sat on their base so they knew where we were and they all came at us at once. We took out five of them (one barely survived and the other was an LRM boat some distance away) before the game ended due to resources.
In CB i once solo'd five enemy mechs at once in a stock K2. I guess stock mechs are op too?

Quote

Even IF they know what they're doing, they're in trouble with LRMs. If they're using direct fire weapons, they have to expose themselves at some point, and even if they don't, all I need to do is wait for one of my team mates to get you targeted and I can start delivering the pain.

If you can hit someone with indirect fire they weren't using cover.

Quote

You want to turn this into an L2P issue, and that's just F'd up.

It's not an L2P issue, it's an issue of PGI providing a bad solution to an existing problem, and we deserving a better one, such as only increasing the speed of the LRMs for the last 100-200 meters of flight. It resolves the near invulnerability fast moving lights had to LRMs, still adds a need to find cover, but doesn't 'over power' the missiles beyond reason.

Of course it's PGI providing a bad solution, it's what they do
LRM's have always been terrible weapons in MWO. Bad at direct-fire but op at indirect-fire.
I've always said LRM's should be fire-and-forget and the warning should be removed, but make it so they can only fire indirect on targets affected by TAG or NARC.

Edit: Just thought i'd add this.
After a long break from MWO i've had a few games today. In one i decided to just wander about in the open and i was quickly destroyed by a Stalker LRM boat.
I played normally in the other games and apart from getting hit once by LRM's i forgot they existed.

Edited by Wolfways, 26 March 2014 - 10:36 PM.

[smokefield]

i think that lrms are manageable now and with the nerf paul said it will implement they will be where it supposed to be. just wait for it and lets see what happens.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Lowering the Impulse is good, I hope SRM 4s get a double check, since they might be at 0.11 compared to other SRMs at 0.19


But I'd say keep the current missile speed and nurf boating LRMs first (including that abominable Stalker Champion) at least.

Maybe a cooldown penalty for mismatched launchers to available missile tube counts (at least when launchers are designed to fire more missiles per salvo while being limited by insufficient missile tubes when installed on a mech). For example, an LRM 15 fired out of a six tube section could be: five missiles fire then 3.25 delay, five missiles fire then 3.25 delay, last five missiles fired regular 4.25 cooldown and on to next fire cycle. Something like that linked to missile tube counts could help with boating like that I hope.

Then, consider tweaking the lock-on system so that it is only a secondary system that only works with TAG, NARC and/or UAV at the minimum. That way LRMs could be setup as primarily a long range line of sight weapon. Also with such a change, spotters have a better role to deal damage through the LRM user locking on to the provided targets.

Add having missiles follow the reticle crosshair in flight as the trade-off to tweaking the lock-on system for general use or have them be as fire and forget with a speed increase. Either way would work for me at this point.

[Mycrus]

Paul can you spend next week dropping in SRM boats...

[101011]

Cyron Zarva, on 26 March 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

I wasn't, in fact. I left just before arty showed up (moved and comp died simultaneously). Just came back last week. But doesn't the "LOW SIGNAL" from a jamming ECM still do exactly that? Stop you from seeing your allies? Forgive my ignorance, for I do not own an ECM 'Mech. I'll go look up the effects of ECM to rectify that.

As an aside, though...with PPCs, NARCs, and TAG able to cut through ECM, I don't see why it's as big of a deal as all that. Guess it's because I missed whatever exploiting was being done.

No problem. The reason it was a big deal was exactly what you stated, though: PPC's didn't end ECM, ECM couldn't be destroyed, NARCs were canceled out by ECM, and most people prefer firepower over TAG. Missiles were too weak back then for the majority of PUGs to use them, leaving it as a 1-ton ECM counter that had to be held on target versus an all-encompassing bubble of ECM. And no, the low-signal doesn't block friendly 'Mechs on the map, only the enemy.

[ShinVector]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

Yeah, one of you getting 8 kill games in Jaegers?

Vids, please.

I've been playing for over 2 years, I've only done that once (if you count the 7 kill game where one of my team mates rams his red core chest into my 'mech causing a technical "TK").

It's extremely rare. Now, if you and wife COMBINED got 8 kills, yeah, that's doable, for sure. My brother and I did that quite often in the past ourselves.

But it was NEVER easy, not like it is with LRMs.

No no no... I was told by LRM boaters that LRMs takes 'skill'..
8 Kills in an LRM boat ? You must be an LRM GOD to pull that off !!

Anyway... Like I mention before and what you see in the video... Unintentionally spotters + high speed LRMs... Spoils the day of any brawling mech regardless of class now. (Pssst!.. Makes the game a whole lot less fun for brawlers to have their rushes/duels interrupted by 'Incoming Missiles' 90% of the stinking time.)

Matches like this below when the FS was introduced a month ago is a thing of the past... (Dimento makes a guest appearance is in this one..)
It is going to be REALLY REALLY HARD to pull off matches like this, nowadays with constant LRM raim everywhere.. Hiaz..


Edit: various.

Edited by ShinVector, 27 March 2014 - 04:19 AM.

[Artgathan]

Dimento Graven, on 26 March 2014 - 09:42 PM, said:

Art, NOW go back and recount where, I fired with direct LOS, but the target moved OUT OF SITE while the salvos were in flight, refigure your numbers and see how it comes out.

It comes out VERY different, at least it did for me.

It feels like you're trying to be an apologist for sloppy, lazy, unskilled LRMers man.

Cut it out.

I want this to be a skills based game, where the results are based on my own ability to deliver damage to the enemy, not how well the computer can steer my missiles for me...

Negative. The LRMs that are already "in flight" when the target gets to cover count as direct fire hits - if they'd been PPC/AC shots you would have pegged the target before it reached cover (due to the much higher projectile speed). The only reason the LRMs hit after the target makes it to cover is because LRMs are slow.

I want the game to be skill based as well. LRMs simply require different skills (notably teamwork) than the ones you enjoy (very fine hand/eye coordination). Does this mean that they're not skill based? Nope.

Find me an example of a game where all you do is lob indirect-fire LRMs and get 8 kills / 800 damage and we'll talk. Right now all you've done is show that a weapon used under optimal conditions (Artemis + TAG + Direct LOS) is effective.

I'll say this one last time as well: if you had been carrying 53 tons of AC/PPC weapons and gotten these results no one would have claimed there was a problem.