775 replies to this topic

[Sable]

Paul Inouye, on 24 March 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Just to let you all know that I've been monitoring the LRM change and their performance on the battlefield. Yes... they are a tad fast... but far from "LRMageddon". Next patch the speed will be reduced by 15m/s. I.e. net change will be from 120 to 160 (instead of 175). I'm also reducing the amount of screenshake caused by LRM explosions slightly. (0.35 instead of 0.4)

It was important to watch the speed impact in gameplay for at least a week to see the actual change in overall gameplay. As you may or may not know, I do have the ability to remotely monitor specific and random games being played. I spent a large portion of my time last week monitoring gameplay of players of all Elo ranges. There were some interesting finds to say the least in terms of how players adapted to the speed change.

Dude!!! What were the interesting finds??? How did people adapt to the change??? You left out the most interesting thing!!! Saw your response on page 3 thanks for sharing.

I do like the faster speeds and i hope you don't dial them back too much after this but i whole heartily agree with reducing cockpit shake from missiles. That should allow people to not have such a complete panic attack when the rain starts.

Edited by Sable, 25 March 2014 - 11:32 AM.

[Samurai 7]

Not that there arent about 1000 opinions on this already, whats 1 more.

First off. Physics are out the window at this point.
If you were to compare a ac20 to a lrm missle and then corolate that to the damage done, the lrm would need to be traveling at 27m/s to have the same ratio of force.
Either that or the weight of a missle would need to drop to around 27kg per missle. (1/6th the current weight);
Or AC's would need to by 6x faster or heavier to adjust... Rough numbers and im board at work.


Anyway.

Its really not so much the LRM speed, but all of the buffs that LRMs have access too.
1. Artimus,
2. Target Decay
3. Targeting speed

You can litterally get a lock on someone in less than 1 second, and since aim is not a factor, LRMs have turned into an effective short range weapon. Where everyone else has to take time and aim to fire.

The second issue is that the flight paths are too smart. Somehow the LRMS know how high to fly to avoid all obsicles and hit the target, because of this, finding cover is almost impossible because you not only need to hide behind something the size of your mech, but something large enough to cover the tajectory shadow, The larger the object the higher the missle flies to avoid it; which there is little of in most maps.

I run a ac40 jag, i do not have the option of AMS or ECM. So reguardless of what i do i am a sitting target of LRMs; Even going at 80kph is not fast enough to find cover.
Because of target decay LRMs have a effective range of 640m;
So even if i find something to hide behind, I will still be hit at 640m out, unless that object has a massive shadow.

There are no equivelent buffs for other weapons. My max buff on a ac20 is to get the distance up to 281m range. Hardly a buff.
Because i cant use any of the other counter measures, im forced to either try to hang around someone with EMC; take really long routes to try and sneak up on lrm boats.

But then ac20s have a hit detection issue; So even when i do sneak up on one, it may take 15 ac20s to take out 1 stalker. (no im not lagging or dropping packets, im a network engineer and have done countless captures and tests; my lag is always around 75ms);

What i really am saying is that LRMs have destroyed the balance of the game to the point where its not fun.
I like 1:1 combat, but that is taken away because once you engage 1 person, you have a swarm of lrms raining down on you and you die within seconds.

Last night i couldnt even turn around to hide fast enough before i was destroyed by lrms with no damage.

[Vandul]

Im sorry, I cant hear you over the ROAR OF MY MISSLIE TOOBS

Seriously, the change in speed was done for two reasons.

A) So lights cant outrun missiles
So that there is an effective counter to the current Jump-Assault-ACX-2xPPC builds that are generating so much whine.

Want to disrupt hill humping meta weasels? Spot em, and enact a payload delivery system from several directions.

I, like so many others, want to SRM's get some lurve as well.

[Reza Malin]

Mazzyplz, on 25 March 2014 - 10:58 AM, said:

no that's voidsinger

He uses LRMS now too!

[Xenon Fire]

Paul Inouye, on 24 March 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

About the reason why the slight nerf? Had nothing to do with the outcry... it was the monitoring of games and seeing the impact on the various types of gameplay that was observed.

That's reassuring?
Remember when brawling was harder because of getting picked off at range too easily?

Paul, could you tell us more about how people have adapted?
If there's a way y'all want to grow the metagame, it'll help to know more about how people are adapting.
I can't see how new players are being encouraged to stick with the game's learning curve right now.
I kind of like how team play is being pushed, but I despair about people trying the game solo, and their not discovering the type of gameplay MWO has that isn't out there. Tell us a bit more about the adaptations, please!

I guess this makes Mediums slightly more viable, because of their smaller profiles?

Edited by Xenon Fire, 25 March 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[Fut]

Samurai 7, on 25 March 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Not that there arent about 1000 opinions on this already, whats 1 more.

First off. Physics are out the window at this point.
If you were to compare a ac20 to a lrm missle and then corolate that to the damage done, the lrm would need to be traveling at 27m/s to have the same ratio of force.
Either that or the weight of a missle would need to drop to around 27kg per missle. (1/6th the current weight);
Or AC's would need to by 6x faster or heavier to adjust... Rough numbers and im board at work.


Anyway.

Its really not so much the LRM speed, but all of the buffs that LRMs have access too.
1. Artimus,
2. Target Decay
3. Targeting speed

You can litterally get a lock on someone in less than 1 second, and since aim is not a factor, LRMs have turned into an effective short range weapon. Where everyone else has to take time and aim to fire.

The second issue is that the flight paths are too smart. Somehow the LRMS know how high to fly to avoid all obsicles and hit the target, because of this, finding cover is almost impossible because you not only need to hide behind something the size of your mech, but something large enough to cover the tajectory shadow, The larger the object the higher the missle flies to avoid it; which there is little of in most maps.

I run a ac40 jag, i do not have the option of AMS or ECM. So reguardless of what i do i am a sitting target of LRMs; Even going at 80kph is not fast enough to find cover.
Because of target decay LRMs have a effective range of 640m;
So even if i find something to hide behind, I will still be hit at 640m out, unless that object has a massive shadow.

There are no equivelent buffs for other weapons. My max buff on a ac20 is to get the distance up to 281m range. Hardly a buff.
Because i cant use any of the other counter measures, im forced to either try to hang around someone with EMC; take really long routes to try and sneak up on lrm boats.

But then ac20s have a hit detection issue; So even when i do sneak up on one, it may take 15 ac20s to take out 1 stalker. (no im not lagging or dropping packets, im a network engineer and have done countless captures and tests; my lag is always around 75ms);

What i really am saying is that LRMs have destroyed the balance of the game to the point where its not fun.
I like 1:1 combat, but that is taken away because once you engage 1 person, you have a swarm of lrms raining down on you and you die within seconds.

This is true, there are a few pieces of equipment to help LRMs out, and it's also true that no other weapons in the game get these sorts of equipment. However, you fail to acknowledge that LRMs also have to deal with AMS, ECM, as well as having to maintain the lock for the entire flight of the missiles. Not to mention the fact that a new Chaff System is coming into the game, as well as a Module system to help pilots identify LRM threats.

LRMs have to jump through so many hoops to be effective. No other weapon has to deal with that.
It's my opinion that if a person can manage to jump through these hoops - their LRMs should be as effective as any other weapon in the game (ie. Fully capable of destroying a Mech).

People are crying (yes, crying) that being focused by 4 LRM Boats melts them too fast... How long do you last when focused down by 4 of any Mech? Or, I should say, 4 Mechs in general. It doesn't matter what kind of Mechs they are, what their weapons are, if you're stuck in a 1vs4 situation, you will not last long.

As for your 1:1 comment... I'm sorry, but this game was never designed to be 1 vs 1 battles. It just wasn't.
So either you have to get over this preference of yours, or you need to find a game that caters to your preferred style.

Samurai 7, on 25 March 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

I run a ac40 jag, i do not have the option of AMS or ECM

Every single Jagermech Variant can carry 1 AMS.
Do not blame the game, the Chassis, or LRMs for your lack of common sense.
If you're constantly being melted by LRMs, to the point that you came onto the forums to complain - the very first thing you can do is equip a god damned Anti-Missile System.

Holy shit. Some people are frustrating....

Edited by Fut, 25 March 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[Xenon Fire]

Vandul, on 25 March 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Seriously, the change in speed was done for two reasons.

A) So lights cant outrun missiles
So that there is an effective counter to the current Jump-Assault-ACX-2xPPC builds that are generating so much whine.

Want to disrupt hill humping meta weasels? Spot em, and enact a payload delivery system from several directions.

To A: Okay, sure. But diving into cover isn't working well either, IMHO.
And they're bad scouts if they're -constantly- huddling, and harrying assaults and heavies is even harder.

B: Okay, sure. But I don't think making it harder to approach them helps. Instead of worrying about sniping, assaults need to worry about being seen, at all.

How're you guys adapting? Other than shouting at the team to group up!

Edited by Xenon Fire, 25 March 2014 - 11:28 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

wintersborn, on 25 March 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

Were is the ECM that prevents targeting of energy weapons ?
Where is the AMS system that shoots down AC rounds?
Where is the equipment needed to make a AC or Energy weapon worth using (TAG, Artemis, NARC, BAP) ?

energy weapons don't need targetting
you just shoot them.

now that ams i'd like to take, when can we have antiAC-AMS?

[Igchy]

To Paul : i don't think u can watch the players play and make decision on your own because you lack the experience of how the game actually work in the live environment.

It is obvious to me that you don't play the game much because you said in Vlog 3 that the balance seems at a good place right now.In reality there so many useless or dont get use as much in game.(Pulse laser ,LBX,AC10,Srm2,Standard heat sink...ect) .

Please appoint a group people that actually play the game all the time in every mech classes on various ELO who can give you accurate advice of how to tweak the be balance combine with other source that you already have.

I think you will do better.This game will live or die will be up to this. Balance

My english sucks btw.

Edited by Igchy, 25 March 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Samurai 7, on 25 March 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

I run a ac40 jag, i do not have the option of AMS or ECM. So reguardless of what i do i am a sitting target of LRMs; Even going at 80kph is not fast enough to find cover.

That's the tradeoff for going with a brainless point-and-click build.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 25 March 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[Bagheera]

Who cares about lrms?

Do something about ******* SRMs already.

No, seriously. You couldn't have tried increasing SRM flight speed instead of this mess with lrms? Sure, it would not address spotty hit detection, but SRMs need a buff and a technical fix.

Instead, more lrm tweaks. Yay.

Edited by Bagheera, 25 March 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[wintersborn]

LRM's need to be about 5ms faster than the fastest Mech with speed tweak otherwise they can out run them.

Adjust the shake but don't continue the stupidity of forcing he meta (Pinpoint Alpha Jump Sniping) by Nerfing a counter.

[Hellen Wheels]

TBH, this LRM change has not affected my play at all. Of course, I am not a "try hard" player, nor am I a "FOTM" player. I play my mechs the way I see them as having been in 3051 (I'm a purist at heart) and I impose a self rule of, if it isn't documented in SARNA, then it isn't a true MW:O mech.

As a result, I play mechs that the "elite, competitive" crowd would never touch. To me, those "3L33t3" boats...that dump three weapon systems to cram on two that were never intended for that mech...are just kiddie rides.

FWIW: too bad you can't enforce hard points to prevent "FrankenMechs": those cheese "min/max" builds that we all abhor, but inevitably find their way into the "ELO Heaven" us hard-core players have found, just to disrupt honest, fun, canon play styles.

Kudos, PGI, for what you do. Keep up the good work.
=h=

Edited by Hellen Wheels, 25 March 2014 - 12:56 PM.

[Aluminumfoiled]

I've said it before this will likely be very good for 3/3/3/3. I just don't like how buffs are done. Go to 150 then adjust up to 160. Not an almost %50 buff off the jump and then adjust down. Maybe you get better data going over a target on purpose but it's kind of hard on your loyal fan base.

Had MC in the bank, x2 conversion weekend and I bought the on sale Orion and BJ recently. Primed fro a MWO weekend and buying 2 Orions, one for MC and one for cbills leading to an additional MC purchase to do it. LRM foolishness broke that idea. I don't tell you as punishment, just and idea of a typical result of these adjustments.

You didn't touch the damage on them. Well done. Direct fire LRMs were good before just not used I guess. I could supress jumpsnipes with 2LRM 10s except for the smart good ones. HGN can stand up and take my 20 lrms and "Come at me Bro" making me reposition or die.

edit: A canon type build with a single launcher and a few tons of ammo might be worth it now if used in 3/3/3/3.

edit 2: How about a slight reduction in terrain penalties. Non JJ mechs are at a severe disadvantage and it wouldn't matter for mechs with JJs. (maybe less invisible sticky things will result too?)

Edited by MicroVent, 25 March 2014 - 01:27 PM.

[DocBach]

Hellen Wheels, on 25 March 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:

TBH, this LRM change has not affected my play at all. Of course, I am not a "try hard" player, nor am I a "FOTM" player. I play my mechs the way I see them as having been in 3051 (I'm a purist at heart) and I impose a self rule of, if it isn't documented in SARNA, then it isn't a true MW:O mech.

As a result, I play mechs that the "elite, competitive" crowd would never touch. To me, those "3L33t3" boats...that dump three weapon systems to cram on two that were never intended for that mech...are just kiddie rides.

FWIW: too bad you can't enforce hard points to prevent "FrankenMechs": those cheese "min/max" builds that we all abhor, but inevitably find their way into the "ELO Heaven" us hard-core players have found, just to disrupt honest, fun, canon play styles.

Kudos, PGI, for what you do. Keep up the good work.
=h=

a more limited hardpoint system which kept 'Mechs similar to the role that they were originally designed for would have been a much easier balancing mechanism from the start, but to a lot of players the ability to customize their 'mechs fully is what Mechwarrior is all about.

Too bad most players either make terrible 'Mechs, or just copy the FOTM.

[Nauht]

wintersborn, on 25 March 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

LRM's need to be about 5ms faster than the fastest Mech with speed tweak otherwise they can out run them.

Adjust the shake but don't continue the stupidity of forcing he meta (Pinpoint Alpha Jump Sniping) by Nerfing a counter.

Um... you do know missiles and projectiles are measured in metres/seconds and mechs run at kilometres/hour.

[Thorqemada]

Ammo based weapons still be "spam shots at every possible target" weapons - when will that change?

[Lord Perversor]

Imho i think Paul should try to set the Lrm to behave like Streaks aiming at each mech section or at least test it.

I think it's the easiest way to make larger launchers more efficient/useful due larger dmg applied at once at the mech in less time.

also it will keep Lrm as Armor shredder at first instead a straight killing weapon so ppl who like to support fire can still feel they contribute to the fight.

[Wolfways]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 March 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

Not quite. ~75% of LRMs will hit CT on most mechs. There are only select few mechs that can spread the damage into sides and arms.

Well i don't see that but then i don't use Artemis/TAG. If someone is giving up space/weapon slots to use the equipment they should see an improvement over not using them.

[IAmColossus 00_00]

just tried the lrm stalker. made 700 dmg, just clicking and smoking a cigarette. my other quest was to turn my mech by 45 degrees from time to time. there is really no skill needed for this and that is ruining the game!!!! the worst thing is the flight angle.... it is nearly impossible to stay in cover. IMPOSSIBRUU!!! please fix that! i want to have fun again!