373 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Ah, so your answer is that you are the best shot in the game, but are being limited by the fact that you play on an old computer with crappy hardware.

That seems legit.

[Krinkov]

I will preface this by saying I mostly played with 4 man teams and 8-12 mans for the first year of open beta. I say this from experience, 4 man meta players such as myself are whiny b*tches. Anyone who plays with a good team knows this. We are so used to crushing pugs that when we die we b*tch. As you can see, some of us come to the forums and b*tch too. LRMs are not OP. We have simply been killed by them more than we are used to. Hence, we b*tch.

[Roland]

Just to be clear here, I don't really give a crap about LRM's one way or the other.

[Solis Obscuri]

Roland, on 31 March 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

LRM's don't require aiming, nor do they require you to expose yourself to counter fire, thus they should always be inferior to weapons which do. Not sure why folks can't really grasp such an obvious and fundamental principle of game balance, other than bads just want to feel like they're not so bad.

They require the same level of skill as using lasers, and a bit more than using PPCs. You point at the red box, click, and hold your cursor there for a second or two. If you can successfully install MWO without accidentally reformatting your harddrive, you pretty much have the right skills to be a successful assault pilot. I can't say there's much here that requires any aiming. Just mouse-clicking.

I do, however, agree that indirect fire is a very powerful capability, which needs to be offset by other mechanics and performance factors.

[Roland]

Solis Obscuri, on 02 April 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

They require the same level of skill as using lasers, and a bit more than using PPCs. You point at the red box, click, and hold your cursor there for a second or two. If you can successfully install MWO without accidentally reformatting your harddrive, you pretty much have the right skills to be a successful assault pilot. I can't say there's much here that requires any aiming. Just mouse-clicking.

I do, however, agree that indirect fire is a very powerful capability, which needs to be offset by other mechanics and performance factors.

Ah, so you too are the best shot in the game.
Amazing.

Also amazing that the folks who are the best shots in the game really like using the guns that don't require aiming. Amazing how that works.

[Asmudius Heng]

I will keep saying it in the hopes PGI will somehow see

Indirect fire needs to be changed so that the ease of lumping a metric f ton of LRMs on a target within a few seconds behind cover is not so effective.

No one complains about losing a fight to an LRM boat they can see and shoot back ... indirect fire and direct fire NEED to be different because the ease of indirect is what makes it effective risk vs reward.

This is why LRMs were nerfed into the ground and made them useless for direct and indirect.

Speed buff good - indirect fire should be way less effdctive by having a much worse missiles spread thus lowering overall damage and chewing ammo - but still being a significant threat if you do not find cover.

Tag + Narc trighten spread of course but still not to the degree of direct fire which should be damaging because you can get shot back.

[Solis Obscuri]

In a way, I think the issue is: how to make LRMs a viable weapon for direct-fire support, without making them too good of a weapon for indirect fire support. PGI hasn't really looked at making any adjustments between the two modes that I've seen so far, which unfortunately tends to make LRMs fluctuate wildly between FotM and borderline-unusable.

[Solis Obscuri]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

Ah, so you too are the best shot in the game.
Amazing.

Also amazing that the folks who are the best shots in the game really like using the guns that don't require aiming. Amazing how that works.

If I wanted to use a gun that required aiming I'd take one of my rifles or pistols to the shooting range.

If I want to use the same 1337skillz I use to open this web browser to put fire five imaginary bullets from five imaginary guns simultaneously and put them all through the same imaginary hole on an imaginary target an imaginary half-mile away, I play MWO.

[El Bandito]

Shooting at targets that move at walking speed when compared to other FPS games is not hard at all. If people want to implement bone mechanics to LRMs, then convergence should be implemented on direct fire weapons.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 April 2014 - 05:14 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Solis Obscuri, on 02 April 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

In a way, I think the issue is: how to make LRMs a viable weapon for direct-fire support, without making them too good of a weapon for indirect fire support. PGI hasn't really looked at making any adjustments between the two modes that I've seen so far, which unfortunately tends to make LRMs fluctuate wildly between FotM and borderline-unusable.

This is EXACTLY the case

Previously the travel time was so slow indirect was pointless because it was so easy to dodge, it punished the very foolish but still only when you ran with a bunch of heavy/assault missile boats. Not many did though because they were so easily countered.

The speed buff did nothing to damage, the EXACT same tactics are being used but are more successful now that the missiles actually hit much better as its harder to find cover.

The only time it is super effective is when there are a bunch of dedicated missile boats and good spotters though.

The more they nerf LRMs the less viable they become direct fire which puts them in such a niche catagory it will go back to what they were before.

The risk vs reward and the ease of spotting and calling a spotted target means indirect has a massive force multiplier on a mediocre weapon which makes it into the {LT-MOB-25} slap of god when enough missiles find target.

Stick your face out and try to get a LoS lock and guide them in and you will eat PPCs and ACs to the face making the risk vs reward pretty poor for direct fire.

The most EASY to implement solution since they already have code to spread and contract missile groupins is to modify the spread based on LoS or indirect ..

The systems are already in place ... this is the simplest solution to at least TEST

[Roland]

Solis Obscuri, on 02 April 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

If I wanted to use a gun that required aiming I'd take one of my rifles or pistols to the shooting range.

If I want to use the same 1337skillz I use to open this web browser to put fire five imaginary bullets from five imaginary guns simultaneously and put them all through the same imaginary hole on an imaginary target an imaginary half-mile away, I play MWO.

Guns are just point and shoot.

If I wanted to use something that required aiming skill, I'd use my atlatl to throw wooden spears at wooly mammoths.

[Solis Obscuri]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Guns are just point and shoot.

If I wanted to use something that required aiming skill, I'd use my atlatl to throw wooden spears at wooly mammoths.

Pffft. You need to use an atlatl to hit a mammoth?

[Asmudius Heng]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

Guns are just point and shoot.

If I wanted to use something that required aiming skill, I'd use my atlatl to throw wooden spears at wooly mammoths.

I want this game.

Mecha Megafauna Hunter sim 2014

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

Lacking situational awareness against good pilots will get you killed regardless of what you are in.




"Soaking damage" is a term used to describe forcing your opponent to spread damage over your mech's panels, rather then allowing him to kill you through a single location. It's one of the primary skills in piloting a mech. It doesn't mean intentionally getting damaged.

And while not taking damage through cover is always a superior option, it's naive to suggest that it would always be the case, given that engagements do not alway take place solely at long range (although in MWO, the generally poor quality of infighting weapons compared to prior titles may give you that impression).



A missile boat isn't soaking damage. He's taking damage. There's a difference there, as described previously.

If you are forced to look directly at your target in order to keep a lock, then you aren't really soaking.



At that point you're talking about using other weapons.



Come on dude. Such things have no significant impact on your weapons stats. They constitute a trivial percentage of shots fired.

If you are blaming your poor stats on those things, then you're fooling yourself.


A lot of the best players were actually folks who came over from Mechwarrior 4. The Snow Ravens, Steel Jaguar guys? Those were all guys who played with us for years back in the old MW4 planetary leagues. And generally, they were head and shoulders above the level at which most of the playerbase operated.

I would not put myself up there with the best pilots, as I don't really put the time into the game to be that good. Although, at the same time, I was pulling a reasonably high KD, mostly while doing solo pugging.. and the game kept putting me up against some of the best players in the game. And I could play crazy drunk and still top the scoreboard.

But ultimately, we don't judge ourselves. We are judged by those who play with and against us.

Still a decent amount of SJR guys to be found, and have fought with and against many of them. Snow Ravens, yeah, it's been a while since I can remember fighting them.

*shrug* ultimately I could care less, who is or is not out there anymore. If they are not playing, hard to factually compare if they are heads and shoulders above the current crop, though I'll be the first to say, that it's a pretty pathetic mixed bag to be found here. And your "standard" seems pretty vague and nebulous.

Also, while I have dealt with those clans in 12 man, hard to be THAT impressed when the majority of them are the fore front of Metarape, and it's not that uncommon to see them farming PUGs in sync drops (SJR, Skye Rangers, many many others) It's one thing to drop a 4 man and all, if a clan is THAT superior, there should never be an need to sync. And don't try to sell me that crock about wanting to face themselves. And many times, those pilots weren't even the individual "best" shooters, but were very well coordinated, which is where really power comes from in this game. I will agree with the sentiment of Joseph and Nicholas, in that there have been few individual pilots that have made me panic. (and I consider myself high average, at best. Would rather spend my free time doing IRL stuff, and use this game and forums as filler in between) There are UNITS on the other hand I respected the crap out of and knew where going to snail stomp me.

Regardless, I have dropped with and against pretty much every tourney board leader in this game, and fought with and against pretty much every major Clan. I don't think it really says much one way or the other, TBH. Especially with the current MM system.

[Roadkill]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

Ah, so you too are the best shot in the game.

Your problem, Roland, is that you only believe that one person has the right to say something is easy. And that person is the one who is best at it.

You are wrong. It is a simple observation to note that in this game, my accuracy with weapons far exceeds my accuracy in other games. Direct fire in this game is easy. I don't have to be the best at the game to know that.

You are also wrong that LRMs only use a subset of FLD weapon skills. The two kinds of weapons have many skills in common, but not all. LRMs are not strictly inferior skill-wise to FLD weapons.

I am no longer as good as I used to be. I once ruled the Team Attrition ladder in MW4 for two straight years, holding 3 of the top 10 spots (1st, 3rd, and 8th-ish in case you care) with different accounts for that entire time. I know what good players can do because I've been that guy before. And I know all about the difference in skill required to use different weapons. Just because I can't do it anymore due to failing vision and failing reflexes doesn't mean I've never seen it or done it.

[Roland]

Roadkill, on 02 April 2014 - 07:28 PM, said:

Your problem, Roland, is that you only believe that one person has the right to say something is easy. And that person is the one who is best at it.

You are wrong. It is a simple observation to note that in this game, my accuracy with weapons far exceeds my accuracy in other games. Direct fire in this game is easy. I don't have to be the best at the game to know that.

You are also wrong that LRMs only use a subset of FLD weapon skills. The two kinds of weapons have many skills in common, but not all. LRMs are not strictly inferior skill-wise to FLD weapons.

I am no longer as good as I used to be. I once ruled the Team Attrition ladder in MW4 for two straight years, holding 3 of the top 10 spots (1st, 3rd, and 8th-ish in case you care) with different accounts for that entire time. I know what good players can do because I've been that guy before. And I know all about the difference in skill required to use different weapons. Just because I can't do it anymore due to failing vision and failing reflexes doesn't mean I've never seen it or done it.

But you aren't competing against people in other games.

In THIS game, if you aren't the best, then that means there is room for you to get better.. and trivializing the skills of people who are better than you is absurd.

It's akin to the folks who complain about "tryhards" beating them... as though there's some merit in their being garbage, and the people who are better than them are somehow cheating by exerting more effort.

That's how competition works... or at least, how it's supposed to work. Through practice, we become better at something.

And it's ridiculous to say that something is easy, while simultaneously not actually being able to put forth the effort to do it.

You can't say things are easy, if you can't actually do them.

If there is another player, who is better than you are at gunnery... the that means it's not actually "easy" to you. It means that playing at his level if actually beyond your current capability. It's HARD to you. You would need to exert effort, practice, and get better to play at this level... and until you do, you can't say what he does is easy, because it's beyond your capability.

[Wolfways]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

If you are blaming your poor stats on those things, then you're fooling yourself.

lol as i said, i don't care about my stats. I have no idea what they are like as i haven't looked at them in so long.

Why has this thread been derailed onto "who's the best shot?" instead of how LRM's need a buff (or three)?

Edited by Wolfways, 02 April 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[Roland]

It went down that road because folks tried to argue that LRM's required just as much skill as weapons that had to be aimed.

[Wolfways]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

If there is another player, who is better than you are at gunnery... the that means it's not actually "easy" to you. It means that playing at his level if actually beyond your current capability. It's HARD to you. You would need to exert effort, practice, and get better to play at this level... and until you do, you can't say what he does is easy, because it's beyond your capability.

I can walk. I don't even have to think about it when i'm doing it. It's easy.
I bet there are people all over the world who walk better than me. Maybe they have better balance and are less likely to trip.
That doesn't mean that i find walking difficult. It's still easy.

[Thunder Child]

I must have Uber-L33t skillz then. I killed a Trial Stalker at 1200m with my Dual Gauss FB, by targetting his right torso. His FaiLRMs didn't even scratch me. And before that, my Hex-MGun DD took down three Missile Boats in one Match.
<End Sarcasm>
Seriously though guys. If a 6 MACHINE GUN Jager can take down three LRM Boats single-handedly (The rest of my team were brawling a Misery) when the top speed on my little tubby is only 76kph, there is no way the Lurms can be OP. If you really want LRMs as "Support-Weapons" perhaps we should have them extend the range out to 2 Kms, so that they can "Support" from anywhere on the map, as a good "Support Weapon" would be able to.
I am not a good pilot. I'm terrible at FPS. I can miss an Atlas at 300m with an AC20. But if even I can get close enough to an LRM Boat to ruin it's day, how hard can it be for the rest of you.
Oh, and my favourite mech in this game is my CLPT-C1. She hasn't seen play since LRMs did only 0.8 Damage per Missile, and even then, I could pull 800 Damage a Map. Not from hiding behind a hill and RofLRM'ing. I would Poptart from 300m away, light up with Tag, and Launch at the Apex. That was the only way I KNEW I would get Hits. If I relied on some random to spot for me, the moment my Missiles locked on, they'd lose target, and the volley would splatter harmlessly against a hill.
TL:DR
So yes. I agree. Firing Wildly from behind cover requires little skill. Firing wildly with PPCs/Gauss/AC/(Insert Direct Fire here) requires little skill. But actually doing decent damage with your preferred weapon system, being able to consistently hit your target, regardless of weapon type, and kill it before it kills you, takes skill. And it takes no less skill to be a GOOD LRM Jockey, as it does to be a GOOD PopSniper, or a GOOD Brawler. Or a GOOD Scout.